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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Greaves on Wednesday 19 September 18 00:05 BST (UK)
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I am having great difficulty in tracing the life of Mary Elizabeth Llewellin. The following is what I haver firm evidence for:
(1) She married James GILBERT in Sep 1893 at All Hallows, Tottenham. She gave her age as 20 and her father was named as William LLEWELLIN, a brass finisher. She was living at 17 Brunswick Court, Tottenham. Her spouse was aged 24 and a labourer, living at 8 Union Row, Tottenham.
(2) In 1901, James GILBERT (32) and Elizabeth GILBERT (28) were living at 12 Union Road, Tottenham, with their two children Harriet (6) and James (2). Her place of birth is simply given as Wales, with no elaboration.
(3) In 1911, James GILBERT (42) and Mary Elizabeth GILBERT (36) are living at Tenterden Road, Tottenham, with their six children: Harriet (17), James (12), Emma (10), Alfred (7), William (5) and Arthur (2).Once again her place of birth is simply given as Wales, with no elaboration.
I assume from the above that she was born c1873 in Wales and her father was William Llewellin, though I can find no suitable birth or baptism for her. Nor can I find her or her parents in the 1881 or 1891 censuses. The nearest I come to locating her is a Mary Elizabeth Llewellin in the 1891 census living in the Tottenham area, but this one was born in Yorkshire!
Her husband appears to die in 1933 aged 62 in Tottenham. I am fairly confident that this is the correct James Gilbert, as the informant is his son, Arthur Gilbert. Having looked at the electoral registers it would appear that James had been living without Elizabeth for a number of years in Lorenco Road, Tottenham, where he died. I can find no trace of Mary Elizabeth after the 1911 census. I have no idea whether she remarried or when and where she died.
Any help in trying to figure out her life before her marriage in 1893 and after the 1911 census would be much appreciated.
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This may not help but looking at the GRO Birth Index the mothers maiden name is mostly spelt Llewellyn :-\
Kay
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A maybe...
LLEWELIN, MARY ELIZABETH mmn MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 11A Page 209
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I wonder if the Mary E Llewellin born 1873 Bradford you found in 1891 might be worth looking into more Found this family in 1881 living in Lambeth with father William a Brass Finisher. At the moment can't see them post 1881
William Llewellyn 33 Brass Finisher Birmingham, Warwickshire
Sarah E Llewellyn 28 Luton, Bedfordshire
Elizabeth Llewellyn 8 Bradford, Yorkshire
Ann Llewellyn 5 Luton, Bedfordshire
William Llewellyn 4 Lambeth, Surrey
Louisa Llewellyn 1 Lambeth, Surrey
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The same family I think in 1891 liiving in Edmonton but William is listed as born Wales and minus Elizabeth b 1873 who might be your Mary Elizabeth
William Llewellen 44 Brass Finisher Llangollen, Denb, Wales
Elizabeth Llewellen 37 Luton, Bedfordshire
Ann E Llewellen 15 Luton, Bedfordshire, England
William H Llewellen 14 Errand Boy Surrey
Louisa Llewellen 14 Surrey
Alice Llewellen 10 Edmonton, Middlesex
Robert C Llewellen 6 Edmonton, Middlesex
Lillie R Llewellen 5 Edmonton, Middlesex
James Llewellen 1 Edmonton, Middlesex
Added - Based on the GRO Birth Index the children (with the exception of the first two) are listed with mother's maiden name Hine. I can't find a birth for (Mary) Elizabeth born 1873 under Hine or Llewell* and Ann Elizabeth b 1875 Luton was registered with the surname Hine with no mothers maiden name -Sadly I can't see a Llew*/Hine marriage
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There is this marriage...
William Llewellyn m Sarah Morgan 1857 Bridgend 11a 707
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A maybe...
LLEWELIN, MARY ELIZABETH mmn MORGAN
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in NEWPORT Volume 11A Page 209
I think this is Mary Elizabeth and family in 1871 living in Newport with sister Alice Jane also listed on the GRO Birth Index with mothers maiden name Morgan
John Llewelin 40 Farmer - Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary Llewelin 37 Monmouthshire, Wales
William Henry Llewelin 4 Monmouthshire, Wales
Alice Jane Llewelin 2 Monmouthshire, Wales
Mary Elizth Llewelin 0 Monmouthshire, Wales
Timothy Morgan Servant 20 Monmouthshire, Wales
Easter Rogers Domestic Servant - Female 15 - Monmouthshire, Wales
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Her husband appears to die in 1933 aged 62 in Tottenham.
Having looked at the electoral registers it would appear that James had been living without Elizabeth for a number of years in Lorenco Road, Tottenham, where he died.
Don't forget that a lot of women did not get the vote until 1928 so she may have been with him but not on the electoral register
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There's another William Llewelyn age 63 born Birmingham, Formerly Brass Finisher, married in the Edmonton Union Workhouse, Bridport Road, Upper Edmonton in the 1911 census.
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Who are the witnesses at her marriage in 1893?
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witnesses Robert Curtis & Alice Gilbert.
;)
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Some interesting speculation. I rather like the Lambeth-Edmonton thread, especially as I have now found the family in 1901 living at 150 St Mary's Road, Edmonton. William seems to have a new and younger wife, named Annie (30)!
William seems confused as to where he was born - Birmingham or Wales? Mary Elizabeth seems to be similarly confused.
It was interesting that the family were living in Coles Avenue in 1891, as William Prior - the future husband of Alice Gilbert, the younger sister of James Gilbert and a witness at his marriage to Mary Elizabeth - was also living with his parents at Coles avenue in 1891.
I am not so happy with the Morgan/Bridgend/Newport connection, as the Mary Elizabeth born in Q1 1871 is a little too old. Moreover, her father is wrong and the family appear to be too wealthy.
Having said all this I still can't find either a suitable marriage for William or birth for Mary Elizabeth. So please keep trying to work your magic. Also there is still the problem of what happens to her after 1911.
PS William R LLEWELLIN appears to die in 1932 aged 84 (Q1 1932 Edmonton 3a 902)
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Where did you find the 1901? I think William has been more constant with his birth place being Birmingham and I think it's him in the 1911. Elizabeth or Mary or Sarah E, seems to be more likely to have come from Luton, I think Wales maybe a red herring. Can't find any marriages for any wives including Annie ???
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Greaves - I also wondered whether Mary E was confused re her birthplace or indeed how she related to the family as there is no sign of a birth that I can see!! Maybe her husband counted her as Welsh due to her surname :-\
Solidrock - This is the 1901 census with new wife?? Annie and William's middle initial R. The middle intial R fits in quite nicely with a William Robert Llewellin born 1847 Aston Warwickshire
William R Llewillin 54 Birmingham
Annie Llewillin wife 30
Robert Llewillin 16
Lillie K Llewellin 13
James Llewellin 11
Ada Llewellin 9
Arthur Llewellin 2 Edmonton
Added -the last child Arthur is listed on the birth index with mothers maiden name Winfield
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Marriage
William Robert Llewellyn
Marriage Banns Date: 14 Mar 1897 All Saints, Edmonton, Enfield, England
Spouse: Annie Rolfe
Both listed as Widowed
On FreeBMD William Robert Llewellin Mar Qtr 1897 Edmonton 3a 321
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This maybe the elusive Sarah...
LLEWELLIN, SARAH ELIZABETH 40
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 215
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This maybe the elusive Sarah...
LLEWELLIN, SARAH ELIZABETH 40
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 215
That looks good :)
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There are several tree's on Ancestry with Sarah Elizabeth and Elizabeth Sarah Hine born 1853 Luton. married to William Robert Llewellyn. There maybe some clues there but I have'nt got a sub.
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There are several tree's on Ancestry with Sarah Elizabeth and Elizabeth Sarah Hine born 1853 Luton. married to William Robert Llewellyn. There maybe some clues there but I have'nt got a sub.
Sadly most of them don't include the possible first child Mary E maybe as they didn't find her in the 1881 census. However one private tree also lists her as Emma??
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There are several tree's on Ancestry with Sarah Elizabeth and Elizabeth Sarah Hine born 1853 Luton. married to William Robert Llewellyn. There maybe some clues there but I have'nt got a sub.
Sadly most of them don't include the possible first child Mary E maybe as they didn't find her in the 1881 census.
Back to the drawing board ??? ;D
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Sorry - I added to the last post - One private tree lists her as Mary Elizabeth (Emma) Llewellin
Birth 1873 Bradford Yorkshire No idea where the Emma comes from!
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Could this be the baptism for William Robert Lewellin.
William Robert Lewellin
04 Oct 1847
Saint James The Less,Ashted,Warwick
Father, William. Mother, Ann.
Added... Father's Residence Place Vauxhall Lane
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OK, with much help I have put together the following for William Robert LLEWELLYN:
1847 - born Aston, Warwickshire
1851 - with parents at Long Acre, Aston
1861 - with parents at Adam Street, Aston
1872 - marries Elizabeth Sarah HINE at Aston (Q1 1872 Aston 6d 289)
1881 - with wife & 4 children at Jacksons Gardens, Lambeth
1891 - with wife & 7 children at Coles Avenue, Edmonton
1895 - death of Elizabeth Sarah LLEWELLYN in Edmonton (Q4 1895 Edmonton 3a 215)
1897 - marries Annie ROLFE (née WINFIELD) in Edmonton (Q1 1897 Edmonton 3a 321)
1901 - living with new wife & 5 children at St Mary's Road, Edmonton
1911 - inmate in Edmonton workhouse
1932 - dies aged 84 at Edmonton (Q1 1932 Edmonton 3a 902)
Clearly there are still a few mysteries to clarify, not least his children. I have found births for seven children with MMN Nine and one with MMN Winfield. There are two missing, the two earliest: Mary Elizabeth and Ann. According to the census information, Mary was born in Bradford or Wales and Ann in Luton. I can so far find neither of these births, at least not with MMN HINE.
I think locating these two births is the next logical step.
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I think this is Ann from GRO Birth Index ANN ELIZABETH HINE - No Mother's maiden name -
GRO Ref: 1875 Sept Qrter LUTON Vol 03B Page 441
Added -Sadly I am completely stumped on Mary Elizabeth :-\
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Kay99 - you are almost certainly right, but a little surprising given that her parents married in 1872, some three years earlier. I would not have been surprised to find that Mary Elizabeth was illegitimate, but Ann clearly was not.
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I must admit I can see a marriage of William Llewellyn in 1872 in Aston with the ref you list but not to a Elizabeth Sarah Hine - but to Ann Tranter https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2VP-5ZF same ref no on FreeBMD :-\ Is yours from FreeBMD??
Kay
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Gosh - you are right. I wonder what happened to Ann Tranter and when and if he married Elizabeth Sarah Hine.
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Sadly I don't think it is the right William -The marriage is online on Anc William is age 21 a Tin stripper and his father is also William
Kay
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There is a Mary Elizabeth Tranter born Q4 1873 in Aston.
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I think this is William Lllewellyn and wife Ann who married in 1872 in the 1881 census. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-F9RY
The eldest child Esther is listed with mothers maiden name Tranter in 1874 on the GRO Birth Index
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There is a Mary Elizabeth Tranter born Q4 1873 in Aston.
On the GRO Birth Index this Mary Elizabeth is listed with mothers maiden name Adshead
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Possible birth for Ann Tranter, if she is the right one...
TRANTER, ANN mmn POTTER
GRO Reference: 1851 D Quarter in ASTON Volume 16 Page 220
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I think this is William Lllewellyn and wife Ann who married in 1872 in the 1881 census. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-F9RY
The eldest child Esther is listed with mothers maiden name Tranter in 1874 on the GRO Birth Index
The other child Emma...
LLEWELLYN, EMMA mmn TRANTER
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 417
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On the 1881 census we have there is Mary Llewellyn, sister, born 1858. This maybe her in 1871 in the household of William and Elizabeth Lewen. at Bordesley, Aston, Warwickshire.
Lewen
Female
Age 13
Scholar
Daughter
Birth Year 1858
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So we seem to have reached a bit of an impasse. It seems to me that the questions that need answering are:
Q1 When and where did William Robert Llewellyn marry Elizabeth Sarah HINE? Assuming of course that they did actually marry.
Q2 Where and when was Mary Elizabeth born? In Bradford in 1873? Was Elizabeth Sarah Hine her mother?
Q3 What was the family doing in Yorkshire? We still do not have a location for William in 1871.
Q4 Was Mary Elizabeth still alive in 1939? If she was born in 1873, she would have been about 66 or 67, so not unreasonable for her to still be alive. If we can find her on the 1839 Register, we will get a DOB.
I think we might make more progress by shifting to tracing Mary Elizabeth post 1911, when we have the last actual evidence of her.
There is an intriguing death of a Mary E LLEWELLYN aged 79 in 1952 - Q1 1952 Hendon 5e 527. The age gives a birth in 1873 which is right and Hendon is not too far from Edmonton. Would she have reverted to her maiden name? What do you think?
In some ways, the disappearance of Mary Elizabeth from the records after 1911 is more interesting than her birth. Births often go unrecorded, deaths not so often due to the need to bury or cremate the body. So when and where did she die?
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Hi Greaves
Re Q1 - I can't find a marriage for William and Sarah Elizabeth and with their daughter Ann Elizabeth b1875 being registered under the surname Hine it looks likely that they didn't marry.
Q2/3 The birth of Mary Elizabeth really confuses me - I can't see a birth and why Bradford?? Will try and trace William in 1871.
Q4 -Post 1911 is difficult re Mary Elizabeth. Is her husband described as a widower on his death cert??? That would at least narrow down the search a little unless she left her husband :-\ There are so many options sadly
Kay
Added - Just to add to the confusion in 1861 the Llewell* family in Aston have a daughter Esther who is born pre 1851 but is not on the 1851 census - the mothers name is Ann in 1851 and Emma in 1861 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7K1-VRL
To add to this the GRO Birth Index lists WILLIAM ROBERT LLLEWELLIN mmn LINFORTH GRO Ref 1847 June Qrtr ASTON UNION Vol16 Page 185
ESTHER LLEWELLEN mmn HARRIS GRO Ref 1848 Dec Qrtr ASTON UNION Vol 16 Page 192
ANN MARIA LLEWELLYN mmn HARRIS GRO Ref 1861 March Qrtr ASTON Vol 06D Page 291
The 1847 birth cert for William Robert might be a good investment !! There is also a marriage of William Llewellyn in Birmingham March Qtr 1847 with possible spouses including an Emma Harris that may be relevant
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Looking for William Robert Llewell* in 1871 I can't see him or any of the 1861 Llewellyn family :-\
Father William died I think in 1867 age 46 and this is the family in 1881 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27N-DCTM
Kay
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On his death certificate, James GILBERT (62) was described as a general labourer of 47 Lorenco Road, Tottenham. There is no indication of his marital status. The informant was Arthur Gilbert of 1 Lorenco Road. Arthur was born in 1909 and was the couple's youngest son.
The 1911 census is the last time we have any evidence of both James and Mary being alive and together, at that time Arthur was just two years old. By the time of his father's death he was still only 24.
I might have to wait until the release of the 1921 census, when Arthur would have been 12 and presumably still living with his parents, to see whether Mary was still alive. Though it would be nice to know her fate now rather than having to wait until the release of the 1921 census, presumably in 2021.
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The 1921 release has not helped, since I can't find any member of the family in that census. Admittedly I have only looked at what FindMyPast shows without paying, but none of the results that are revealed look like they are worth spending money for.
Judging by the 1911 census, there should be:
James GILBERT (52), Mary Elizabeth GILBERT (46), James GILBERT (22), Emma GILBERT (20), Alfred GILBERT (17), William GILBERT (15) and Arthur GILBERT (12).
in 1911, the family were at 18 Tenterden Road, Tottenham. And in 1933 when James GILBERT died, the family were in Lorenco Road, Tottenham.
So in 1921, I would expect at least some of them to be in the same area, the border of Tottenham and Edmonton. But I just can't find them.