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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: kirstyc on Wednesday 19 September 18 15:31 BST (UK)
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Hi
I'm looking into the father of an ancestor. According to her death certificate in 1859, my ancestor's father was James Anderson, china manufacturer. She was in her 70s at this point so I assume her father was long dead and would have been active around the turn of the 19th C.
Anyone know where china was manufactured in Scotland in around 1800? I didn't know there was any china produced there, to be honest!
I think she was born in Haddington in the 1780s. This could be wrong, if so it's still likely to be the lowlands region. Her son was born in Alloa, Clacks, and lived in Edinburgh and Fife.
thanks in advance!
Kirsty
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What was your ancestors name? Finding a Bapt may be the key to this :)
EG; we can rule out James/Isabel Anderson who were having children in Haddington in the right time frame. He was a Blacksmith.
Trish :)
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I did find mention of a James Anderson here:
https://www.scottishbrickhistory.co.uk/scottish-pottery-and-porcelain-works-circa-1978/
ALLOA.
Alloa Pottery. These works were established in 1790 by Mr.
James Anderson, and were afterwards carried on by Mr. William
Gardner; in 1855 they passed by purchase into the hands of the
present proprietors, Messrs. W. & J. Bailey. At first the works,
under Mr. Anderson, produced common brownware pans and crocks,
and by Mr. Gardner the addition was made of Rockingham ware
tea-pots.
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She was called Catherine Anderson. Died aged 76 in 1859, so I make that born in 1783.
The mother's name is listed as unknown on her dc.
The only likely one I've found so far is:
ANDERSON CATHARINE - JAMES ANDERSON/ANN PHILIP FR2769 F 01/07/1783 in St Cuthbert's, Edinburgh.
She married a John Cochrane, army officer (but no trace of him either) and they had one son, James Cochrane, born Alloa in 1805. That's all I know for sure. It's likely they lived in Edinburgh though.
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I did find mention of a James Anderson here:
https://www.scottishbrickhistory.co.uk/scottish-pottery-and-porcelain-works-circa-1978/
ALLOA.
Alloa Pottery. These works were established in 1790 by Mr.
James Anderson, and were afterwards carried on by Mr. William
Gardner; in 1855 they passed by purchase into the hands of the
present proprietors, Messrs. W. & J. Bailey. At first the works,
under Mr. Anderson, produced common brownware pans and crocks,
and by Mr. Gardner the addition was made of Rockingham ware
tea-pots.
Ooh - this is promising, since Catherine's son was born in Alloa in 1805.
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Extract from Scottish Pottery (Fleming, 1923):
"There was erected in the town of Alloa about 1790 a small pottery for the making of coarse ware from local clay. It was situated beside Me Johnson's wine cellars, and originally believed to have belonged to a man Shaw. better known as 'Sleepy Shaw'. It is questionable whether he himself built the works or a James Anderson, but we do know that Shaw was a master potter, and occupied the works, which were well known locally as The Pottery"
Pottery was a major industry in Scotland at one time. Plenty of information here:
http://www.scottishpotterysociety.co.uk/
Imber
Imber
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Brilliant - thank you!
Kirsty
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"China" and pottery of all descriptions was a huge industry in Lowland Scotland. In the 19th century it was the second largest industry in Glasgow after shipbuilding. Hard to believe but there were huge potteries in the city and some of them produced the most exquisite porcelain too, the Verreville Pottery at the Broomilaw/James Watt St was in existence in the late 1700's. J & M.P.Bell was probably the largest pottery in the city. Other potteries in Scotland were at Alloa, Bo'ness, Greenock, Cumnock, Kirkcaldy, Portobello, Musselburgh, Prestonpans and the only one of any size north of Perth, Seaton Pottery in Aberdeen.
It isn't a coincidence that almost all of them were situated at or close to, a sea port. Millions of pieces of Scottish pottery were shipped in the 19th century to the "colonies" of Canada, Australia, India and other places all over the world.
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Thanks Lodger - I had no idea the china business was so big there!
If you can think of any other sources of information on the background of Mr James Anderson and the Alloa pottery, that would be much appreciated. Most of the info I've found is about the pottery later on in the mid 1850s, and the pottery itself. There's a book, but I can't source a copy right now. Can't find much in the way of Alloa records, or a trace of Mr Anderson himself.
Kirsty
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The National Records of Scotland has paperwork regarding "James Anderson, potter in Alloa" dated 1804 and is regarding his father's (also James Anderson) estate in Dunbar.
Try this link, I hope it opens.
http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=CS231%2fA%2f3%2f15&st=1&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=james+anderson+potter&ko=p&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y
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I think she was born in Haddington in the 1780s. This could be wrong, if so it's still likely to be the lowlands region. Her son was born in Alloa, Clacks, and lived in Edinburgh and Fife.
Hi Kirsty,
Have you looked for Catherine in 1851 which should indicate where she was born?
Annie
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I did find mention of a James Anderson here:
https://www.scottishbrickhistory.co.uk/scottish-pottery-and-porcelain-works-circa-1978/
ALLOA.
Alloa Pottery. These works were established in 1790 by Mr.
James Anderson, and were afterwards carried on by Mr. William
Gardner; in 1855 they passed by purchase into the hands of the
present proprietors, Messrs. W. & J. Bailey. At first the works,
under Mr. Anderson, produced common brownware pans and crocks,
and by Mr. Gardner the addition was made of Rockingham ware
tea-pots.
My Speight ancestors worked at the pottery making Rockingham ware. the factory was in Wath Upon Dearne, West Riding of Yorkshire.
Porcelain is made from crushed flint and my Wm Speight was the miller in charge of the workshop that crushed the flint.
China is made from crushed bone and feldspar found growing in Scotland.
P.S. The porcelain factory was owned by Brameld and you can still find Brameld crockery in circulation.
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Two interesting things for me in this post.
1. I have a small brownware crock from Cumnock that belonged to my maternal grandmother who lived in New Cumnock!
2. THE Rev Thomas Brameld (of Rockingham China) illegally married a niece of my paternal great Paulson grandmother! I don't have any of their work, although, except for a photo on my PC of a ginger beer bottle made by them.
Thomas was also an artist, BUT as well as that he was a Vicar, who had an affair with said g-grandmother's niece, from Mansfield, (named Mary Kate Paulson) who was the governess of his children. The couple took off to Scotland, and left a very false trail of info, so the families didn't know where they were! Thomas changed his surname to Grey, became quite a popular artist there, and sold his work under that name! They apparently married after they discovered (somehow or other) that his wife had died!
This is the information I found about Thomas Brameld on Trove Australia! It appears that the niece of my great grandmother took off with the Local Vicar!
" John Thomas Brameld
Incumbent of St John's Church of England in Mansfield
"The church suffered some embarrassment in September 1866 when the incumbent, Rev. J.T. Brameld, eloped with a young lady called Paulson"
*******
Ok, so they cleverly laid that false trail to Australia somehow, and when they arrived in Scotland, changed their names to Grey, although they never married! He was an artist naming himself Thomas Grey, and she named herself Mary Kate Grey.
Here's a link to the actual article!
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198206124?searchTerm=Paulson%20Brameld%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20&searchLimits=
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I did find mention of a James Anderson here:
https://www.scottishbrickhistory.co.uk/scottish-pottery-and-porcelain-works-circa-1978/
ALLOA.
Alloa Pottery. These works were established in 1790 by Mr.
James Anderson, and were afterwards carried on by Mr. William
Gardner; in 1855 they passed by purchase into the hands of the
present proprietors, Messrs. W. & J. Bailey. At first the works,
under Mr. Anderson, produced common brownware pans and crocks,
and by Mr. Gardner the addition was made of Rockingham ware
tea-pots.
My Speight ancestors worked at the pottery making Rockingham ware. the factory was in Wath Upon Dearne, West Riding of Yorkshire.
Porcelain is made from crushed flint and my Wm Speight was the miller in charge of the workshop that crushed the flint.
China is made from crushed bone and feldspar found growing in Scotland.
P.S. The porcelain factory was owned by Brameld and you can still find Brameld crockery in circulation.
Just to clarify that the term "Rockingham Ware" used in the context of Alloa Pottery and many many others throughout the UK refers not to finer ware such as porcelains, as produced by Rockingham, but to a distinctive brownish glaze originating at Rockingham but subsequently used widely elsewhere, mainly on earthenwares, particularly on teapots. Some more information here:
http://www.treacleware.co.uk/html/what_is_treacleware_.html
Imber
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"I have a small brownware crock from Cumnock that belonged to my maternal grandmother who lived in New Cumnock! "
There's a great little booklet titled "The Cumnock Pottery" by Gerard Quail (1993) published by Ayrshire Archaeological and Natural History Society. Does your jug have a mottos on the side?
Just loved your story about the naughty Reverend Thomas Brameld!
Imber
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Thanks Lodger - I had no idea the china business was so big there!
If you can think of any other sources of information on the background of Mr James Anderson and the Alloa pottery, that would be much appreciated. Most of the info I've found is about the pottery later on in the mid 1850s, and the pottery itself. There's a book, but I can't source a copy right now. Can't find much in the way of Alloa records, or a trace of Mr Anderson himself.
Kirsty
Kirsty, I wonder whether the book you mention is Alloa Pottery, by James Sproull and Thomas Rankine, published by Clackmannan District Libraries? I actually have a copy. Strangely there is nothing about Anderson in the main text yet he appears in Appendix 1. Unfortunately all that is is the extract already provided by shanghaipanda.
Imber
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It's always fascinating to find naughty stories about your family! ;D. I hope none of my descendants ever find any naughty stories about me!! But of course not, I'm perfect of course!!! ;D
I don't have a jug, it's a wee oval darkish brown highly glazed casserole or pie dish, with a lid on the top. There has been something inscribed on the base, but unfortunately it seems to have been scratched off. She used to make lovely pies in it. My Nanny told me that it had been a wedding present from her sister, and she had brought it with her to New Zealand when my family came here in 1926! She gave it to me (along with other treasures) when I moved her in to live with my Mum.
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Porcelain is made from crushed flint .... China is made from crushed bone and feldspar found growing in Scotland.
Are you absolutely certain of that?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcelain and https://www.britannica.com/art/porcelain
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Quote from: kirstyc on Wednesday 19 September 18 15:31 BST (UK)
I think she was born in Haddington in the 1780s. This could be wrong, if so it's still likely to be the lowlands region. Her son was born in Alloa, Clacks, and lived in Edinburgh and Fife
Hi Kirsty,
Have you looked for Catherine in 1851 which should indicate where she was born?
Annie
Catherine is in Kirkgate, Cupar in the 1851 census. Widowed, age 67, she is described as a house proprietrix She was born in East Linton.
flst
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Porcelain is made from crushed flint .... China is made from crushed bone and feldspar found growing in Scotland.
Are you absolutely certain of that?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porcelain and https://www.britannica.com/art/porcelain
I'm no expert Forfarian, I tried to be helpful to the poster by way of explanation of local sources.
I copied and pasted but obviously from a different website - and from another separate website here's a third explanation:-
"The primary components of porcelain are clays, feldspar or flint, and silica, all characterized by small particle size. To create different types of porcelain, ."
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There are the remains of North Woodside flint mill on the river Kelvin, Glasgow, which supplied the potteries.
Skoosh.
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I think we risk going off at a tangent here. The original poster is looking for an ancestor.
James Anderson couldn't have been involved at the Alloa pottery for very long, the late Harry Kelly doesn't mention him at all in his book (Scottish Ceramics by Henry E. Kelly) and he was always quite thorough in his research. This is what he has to say about Alloa.
"The pottery was founded c1783 in Kirkgate, Alloa, by James Shaw - know as Sheepy Shaw - to make common redware. It rapidly passed through the hands of a number of owners: James Turnbull (until 1805), James Heath (1812 - 16), William Hamilton and William Gardner (c1820 - 1856)".
So, no mention of James Anderson but, he was definitely there in 1804, perhaps he was a partner in the business for a short time? Or even a foreman potter? If the National Records of Scotland are to be believed, his father lived in Dunbar, surely that's the logical place to be looking?
Oh, and Skoosh, I don't want you to even ask how "Sheepy" Shaw acquired his nickname! :o
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@ Lodger, ye s--- wan sheep! ;D
Skoosh.
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@ Lodger, ye s--- wan sheep! ;D
Skoosh.
I knew that's what was going through your mind, it never crossed mine. ;D ;D ;D
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No baaaad!
Skoosh
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No baaaad!
Skoosh
Trust EWE 8)
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Hi Kirsty,
Have you looked for Catherine in 1851 which should indicate where she was born?
Annie
I have her living on her own in Cupar, just around the corner from her son at the Manse. Says widowed, born in Haddington. I can't find her in 1841.
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Thanks Lodger - I had no idea the china business was so big there!
There's a book, but I can't source a copy right now.
Kirsty
Kirsty, I wonder whether the book you mention is Alloa Pottery, by James Sproull and Thomas Rankine, published by Clackmannan District Libraries? I actually have a copy. Strangely there is nothing about Anderson in the main text yet he appears in Appendix 1. Unfortunately all that is is the extract already provided by shanghaipanda.
Imber
Yes it was that book I was trying to get! So nothing new in there. Thanks for the tip - saves me the bother! :) :)
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Quote from: kirstyc on Wednesday 19 September 18 15:31 BST (UK)
I think she was born in Haddington in the 1780s. This could be wrong, if so it's still likely to be the lowlands region. Her son was born in Alloa, Clacks, and lived in Edinburgh and Fife
Hi Kirsty,
Have you looked for Catherine in 1851 which should indicate where she was born?
Annie
Catherine is in Kirkgate, Cupar in the 1851 census. Widowed, age 67, she is described as a house proprietrix She was born in East Linton.
flst
Ah you're quite right, flst. I misread it as Haddington in the county of East Lothian, but of course it would have been Haddingtonshire and it reads East Linton.
So that would make sense if the NAS record about James Anderson is right from 1804, which says that his father lived in Dunbar. Just down the road from East Linton.
Lodger - thanks for the NAS link!
So
- the James Sproull and Thomas Rankine books says say the pottery was started in 1790 by James Anderson
- Henry Kelly says the pottery was started in 1783 and makes no mention at all of JA
- the NAS record says James Anderson was a potter in Alloa in 1804
- his daughter's death cert says he was a china manufacturer
So he might have been a partner, or possibly Kelly got a name wrong and he is the James Turnbull who sold the business in 1804. i.e. he had it between 1790 and 1804.
Either way, I think I need to look more closely at Dunbar and East Linton.
Loved the naughty vicar story from Jaybelnz - such bohemians!
thanks folks!
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I have come across a further article about Alloa Pottery. This appears in Scottish Pottery, Scottish Pottery Society 21st Historical Review, 2001 and is a ten page update by Robert Rankine of parts of the Spreull and Rankine book mentioned earlier. There is a brief mention of Anderson:
“On 15 March and again on 15May both in 1783 James Schaw registered leases of ground from the family of Erskine (Earls of Mar) and from Jean Brydie. The evidence for Schaw’s connection with a pottery at Alloa comes from James Whitehead (1807-1886) whose published reminisces recall the Alloa of his youth. Whitehead’s Alloa Fifty Years Ago was printed in the Alloa Advertiser in 1858/59 (repeated at later dates). He writes of the pottery ‘ James Ferguson, cooper, resided in the house adjoining Mr Johnston’s wine cellar. The next property is the Pottery, which originally belonged to a Mr Schaw, better known as Sheepy Schaw’. The property afterwards fell into the hands of Mr James Johnston, merchant, Alloa under whom several parties became lessees. Amongst the number was Mr Anderson, grandfather of the celebrated Rev James Cochran, minister of Cupar-Fife, who was a native of Alloa. The name of the party who had the pottery on lease after this (say 1814 and some years later) was a person named Hamilton. Then came Mr Wm Gardner …….”
Further on in the article:
“Johnston was remarkable for his great enterprise in business and it was he who took over James Schaw’s property and leased it to others. The lease holders included James Anderson from c1790; James Turnbull from 1805; James Heath 1812; William Hamiltonc1816; William Gardner c1821 and the Bailey family from 1855.”
Imber
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Strangely enough a TV prog' tonight, "Britain at Low Tide!" investigated sunk ships in the Clyde, one of them had a white substance leaking from the hold. Turned out to be kaolin & the ship to be a Cornish schooner, its cargo for the Glasgow potteries.
Skoosh.
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Strangely enough a TV prog' tonight, "Britain at Low Tide!" investigated sunk ships in the Clyde, one of them had a white substance leaking from the hold. Turned out to be kaolin & the ship to be a Cornish schooner, its cargo for the Glasgow potteries.
Skoosh.
Thanks for that. Fascinating. Must try to see whether I can get it on I Player or similar.
Imber
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Channel 4 Imber @ 7.00. Alternatively it might have been for Kaolin poultices? ;D
Skoosh.
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Imber - you are my absolute hero! That's definitely my guy! Rev James Cochrane was my ggg-grandfather. I couldn't be absolutely sure that the Catherine in the 2 census records was the right one, i.e. his mother, but this show that it is.
So one of the lessees - I'm thinking that would mean a co-business owner, rather than a co-land land owner. So he must have done other stuff too.
Skoosh - is that like the kaolin & morphine we used to take for tummy upsets?? Will take a look but currently gripped with Scotland's efforts in the Sheepdog trials!
Kirsty
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Extract from Scottish Pottery (Fleming, 1923):
"There was erected in the town of Alloa about 1790 a small pottery for the making of coarse ware from local clay. It was situated beside Me Johnson's wine cellars, and originally believed to have belonged to a man Shaw. better known as 'Sleepy Shaw'. It is questionable whether he himself built the works or a James Anderson, but we do know that Shaw was a master potter, and occupied the works, which were well known locally as The Pottery"
Pottery was a major industry in Scotland at one time. Plenty of information here:
http://www.scottishpotterysociety.co.uk/
Imber
Imber
Imber - do you have this book or did you find the quote online? I've just done a search and found a snippet from page 205 that looks like it might be relevant. If you have the actual book, I wondered whether you might look up the rest of the sentence:
P205: "James Johnstone next became proprietor, but as he took no active interest in the industry he leased it to different people, among them the well-known James Anderson, father of Mrs Cochran the china merchant..."
thanks
Kirsty
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I do have the book. The sentence continues:
".... father of Mrs Cochran the China Merchant in Alloa. Mrs Cochran was the mother of the celebrated James Cochran, the Minister of Cupar-Fife. About 1814 a man Hamilton was in charge of the pottery".
Imber
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That's fantastic, Imber - thank you!
So Catherine was a china merchant herself! 21st-Century me is slightly grumpy that they didn't record her occupation on her death certificate.
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Hi,
I hope I'm not too late to the party.
The Cochranes are certainly very well known in the Glasgow pottery circles. However, there were many of them in Glasgow as can be seen from the 1872/3 PO Directory: https://digital.nls.uk/directories/browse/archive/83961253?mode=transcription
Alloa Pottery is featured in Scottish Pottery's Historical Review (SPHR) # 22 [2002]
I am sure I have a copy, if you are interested in its contents?
All the best,
Jamie
Scottish Pottery Society
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Hi Jamie
Yes definitely - thank you, I'd love to know more about the Alloa Pottery. I'm not sure what the connection with Glasgow is - perhaps Mrs Cochrane's husband? - but interested to know more about its early years and the Anderson / Cochrane connection.
best
Kirsty
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Kirsty, I read your posts about James Anderson, China Merchant and wondered whether we were related in some way; way back! My GGGrandfather was a James Anderson, China Merchant, born 1820 and his son, James Anderson was also a China Merchant, born 1852. Would love to compare notes. Hope to hear back from you. Susan, Ottawa, Canada
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Hi Susan
Interesting - yes there might be a connection!
By 1820, I think my James Anderson was dead and his daughter Catherine (Mrs Cochrane) was nearly 40. I don't know about anyone else in the family (yet) so your James could be his grandson from a son. Where were they born? Catherine was born in 1783 in East Linton, Haddington, so if she had a brother, he might have been born there. I think James may have lived in Dunbar, not far from East Linton.
I found this reference on the NAS website to a court case, so this might refer to your James' father or grandfather:
NRS Ref CS231/A/3/15 Extract retour of the general service of James Anderson, potter in Alloa, as heir to James Anderson, residing in Dunbar, his father, dated 4 Feb 1804.
please do pm me
best
Kirsty
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Hi Kirsty,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly! Yes, very interesting! it appears that I have two James Andersons that are listed on birth certificates and marriage certificates as Glass and China Merchants? James Anderson (SR) was born in Glasgow in about 1820, he married a Elizabeth McBain (McBean)sp in November of 1850, in Fife , Scotland. He and Elizabeth had 8 children one of them being my G Grandfather; George Mc Bean Anderson; born in of August 1858. My G Grandfather's oldest brother was named James. He was born in Perth, Scotland in April of 1852. At this point I' m not too sure what James Anderson's father and mother's names were. Ill keep checking but perhaps that's where the connection is? Can you give me the actual website ifo to look up the court docs?
Thanks,
looking forward to hearing back,
Susan
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Can you give me the actual website ifo to look up the court docs?
Hi Susan,
This is the link: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ofv/
These have to be ordered in for viewing (details on page)
Search page: http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/search.aspx
Annie
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Annie,
Thanks, that be a wonderful idea but unfortunately I live in Canada. Maybe some day.
Susan