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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: rdpaul on Wednesday 19 September 18 22:01 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I've recently come across a sad family story, which has encouraged me to find out more. My Grandad's brother, John Curtin, Irish Guards was killed in WW1, possibly at the Somme. His Mother, my Great Grandmother, tried to trace him after the war...but never did locate him. She even wrote to the Australian Prime Minister at the time for help, because he had the same name as John!
Tried doing the usual searches but didn't come up with anything which ties him up to his birthplace etc. If anyone has access to Irish Guard casualties list, your help would be greatly appreciated.
He was born in Leeds, UK, Jan or Feb 1893. Father- James Curtin, Mother- Mary Curtin
Would be nice to settle this family mystery, for the sake of my grieving Gt Grandma.
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Commonwealth War Graves Commission has (nothing for Irish Guards):
CURTIN John, Cpl 7472 Leinster Regt d 4/9/18 age 33. Parents Gunner Peter & Elizabeth of Cork, wife Hannah of 13 Horgons Bldgs Cork.
CURTIN J L/Cpl 30077 Royal Irish Fusiliers, died 30/9/18 age 45. Son of Edmond Curtin of Cloheen, Buttevant, Cork.
CURTIN J Cpl 6682 Royal Munster Fusiliers MM. Died 4/10/18 age 24. Son of Timothy & Mary Curtin of Knockulcare, Mt Collins, Abbeyfeale, Limerick.
CURTIN John, Pte 7787 Royal Dublin Fusiliers, died 24/5/15 age 29. Son of John & Mary Curtin of 7 Bunkers Hill, St Mary's Rd, Cork.
plus a Canadian and some Australian - but they seem to be James, or not connected to Leeds..
Philip
CWGC https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead
CANADIAN - http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/discover/military-heritage/first-world-war/Pages/introduction.aspx
AUSTRALIAN - https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SessionTimeout.aspx
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The absent voters lists for Leeds does not have a John Curtin listed, only James (sometimes shown as James Jr) who served in the Royal Field Artillery.
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Thanks Phillip.
I'll just keep searching. Is it possible soldiers were killed in World War 1 without any record? If so, I can only imagine how his mother must have suffered, trying to find out his fate.
Thanks Jomot.
I have John on the 1911 Census, in Leeds...but after that, he disappears. If he was killed before 1918, maybe he wouldn't have appeared on the Absent Voters List. Am I right in saying, the list was only from 1918 onwards? By the way, James, of the RFA, would have been my Grandad, the last of the siblings. He survived the war...and the Second World War too.
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Hello,
I can’t find John, or the family in 1911 to check anything :-\
There is a reference to J F Curtin Q.M.S Royal Munster Fusiliers
30 Meanwood Street, Camp Road Leeds
It is in the National Roll of the Great War and states that after being wounded, he was taken prisoner in 1918 and demobilised in 1919.
Heywood
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Hi Heywood,
I will look into the J.F. Curtin you mentioned. I saw that before but didn't pursue it as it mentions he was demobilised 1919. When in fact, we were told he was killed in action. The address doesn't match, but it's quite close to where the family lived, so I will check again.
Regarding the 1911 Census, please find attached.
Thanks
Paul
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Hello,
I can’t find John, or the family in 1911 to check anything :-\
There is a reference to J F Curtin Q.M.S Royal Munster Fusiliers
30 Meanwood Street, Camp Road Leeds
It is in the National Roll of the Great War and states that after being wounded, he was taken prisoner in 1918 and demobilised in 1919.
Heywood
I don't think this is your man. Here is one of POW entries from https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2603948/698/41762/
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BTW James was a POW too. He has the Stanhope Terrace address
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There was a John Curtin Irish Guards no. 10538 1st. Battalion. He appears to have survived. It may be he died shortly after WW1 & the story has got a bit distorted.
Edit: Found a record for him. Back shortly.
Not him.
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There was a John Curtin Irish Guards no. 10538 1st. Battalion. He appears to have survived. It may be he died shortly after WW1 & the story has got a bit distorted.
Edit: Found a record for him. Back shortly.
Not him.
WO 364 - First World War Pension Claims
is on FindMyPast. He is from Co Clare
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If he had died during the war there would be a record somewhere. Although soldiers died who have no known grave there would have been a paper trail either the War Graves Commission or Register of Effects.
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Thanks Jim1,
I'll keep searching for the paper trail
Mckha489,
Yes, my Grandad James was a POW. Germany somewhere. Released at the end of the war. If you have more info on that, would be good thanks
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Who did Grandad serve with?
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Mckha489,
Yes, my Grandad James was a POW. Germany somewhere. Released at the end of the war. If you have more info on that, would be good thanks
Its on the same site i already posted a link to https://grandeguerre.icrc.org
It's a bit of a fiddle finding them.
You enter CURTIN in the search, that takes you to a stack of cards you have to scroll through. the cards have numbers on that you enter and that takes you to the register. I found 2 for James
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I had to find that John Curtin in a different way.
Why do you say it is not him?
Not that I am saying it is him either but I couldn’t see any other information.
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Hi Heywood,
I will look into the J.F. Curtin you mentioned. I saw that before but didn't pursue it as it mentions he was demobilised 1919. When in fact, we were told he was killed in action. The address doesn't match, but it's quite close to where the family lived, so I will check again.
Regarding the 1911 Census, please find attached.
Thanks
Paul
Thanks Paul. I saw him in Family Search but the family do not seem to show on Ancestry.
May I just remind you that we can only post snippets not full pages so you are best to remove the image.
Heywood
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There is a death for John F Curtin in 1944 Leeds. He is 82 yrs born 1862.
He would be over 50 in WW1 - would that discount him?
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I had to find that John Curtin in a different way.
Why do you say it is not him?
Not that I am saying it is him either but I couldn’t see any other information.
Do you mean the POW one? His home address is wrong.
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Jim1,
Grandad James served with 155th Brigade, Royal Field Artillery. He was a Gunner...Service number L5927. Gas shell wounded, then POW in Germany from 28-5-18....released 2-12-1918. I have that info from his Army records...but have no idea whereabouts he was held captive
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Jim1,
but have no idea whereabouts he was held captive
Lager Cassel
It says where he was captured too, but I can't work it out. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org :-)
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photograph
https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/wwi_pow_camps/859/
wiki entry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederzwehren
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I don't think this is your man. Here is one of POW entries from https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2603948/698/41762/
This one seems to be from Limerick :-\
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There is this medal card but there is no information
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2051311
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There is this medal card but there is no information
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2051311
see reply #9
already ruled him out
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The date almost certainly indicates capture during Operation Michael AKA The German Spring Offensive.
Place Pontavert France.
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I.19 on this map.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465392
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The date almost certainly indicates capture during Operation Michael AKA The German Spring Offensive.
Place Pontavert France.
on the page of the register with James on, everyone else is Pontavert but he is something else that LOOKS like unbekmant it is a bit blurry. the u is lower case, whereas the P in the Pontavert entries is upper case. Perhaps it means UNKNOWN?
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There were 2 James Curtins captured 27/5/18 both RFA. I ruled out this one as he was in the 33rd. RFA not 155th. but the address is correct so the right man but in a different Brigade.
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Looking at the diary they were at Roucy.
Have to go out but will take another look later.
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There were 2 James Curtins captured 27/5/18 both RFA. I ruled out this one as he was in the 33rd. RFA not 155th. but the address is correct so the right man but in a different Brigade.
Mystery solved. They're one in the same.
So on the one card it says captured Pontavert & on the other card says he was in 33/Bde. RFA. The diary says the HQ was at Roucy & the Batteries of 33/Bde. were deployed as per the diary map which is overlaid with the trench map which shows exactly were he was on the 27th.
Also note the diary entry for the 26th.
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Attached, is a snippet from his Army records. In the Corps column, is says Base 33/33. Could this be referring to 33 Brigade perhaps?
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....also, this snippet, showing the date he was wounded with the gas shell. He was blinded for some time. My Mum told me.
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He was definitely 33/Bde. as above map shows.
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I think the gas shell wounded date should read 27-5-18
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The diary of the 26th. gives a warning that an attack with gas was due the following day which would be the 27th.
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Well, Great Uncle John has gotten a bit sidelined for now...but I'm very grateful for all the inputs regarding my Grandad James. I have learnt a lot. I have now downloaded the War Diaries for 33 Brigade, 155 & 156 Brigades RFA. Which should cover his service in the Great War. (156 is also mentioned in his records). Should be an interesting read.
Jim1...I think the 'Base 33/33' reference on his record is for 33 Battery/33 Brigade. 33 Brigade at the time had 32, 33 & 36 Batteries.
Thanks again for all the inputs, I would never have found out about the POW records without your help.
I'll keep on searching for info on his long lost brother John.