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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Daonnachd on Thursday 20 September 18 01:30 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I have been contacted by someone with whom I share a common ancestor - Abraham Seaman - and together we have found that he died in 1862 but the probate calendar date is 1904. The probate states that Abraham left his daughter Emma Larkin almost £600.00, but it seems no one else in his family benefited.
Abraham was according to Census records born around 1785 in Heybridge near Maldon, then moved to West Ham at some point. While he did marry Emma's mother in Heybridge, we can't find a convincing birth record for him.
We have 2 questions -
Why would probate take so long from the date of his death?
How could a carpenter in East London end up with the best part of £600.00?
Any help with answering the above, or any other information that could be useful would be very much appreciated.
I would note that if anyone looks up the Census records, you will find it states his birth place as Abridge, but this is in a different part of Essex to Maldon where his wife and children were born, whereas Heybridge is now part of Maldon. We both think it was a case of Abraham dropping his "H's" when the census was taken.
Thanks very much,
Lindsey
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Hello,
... and together we have found that he died in 1862 but the probate calendar date is 1904.
Why would probate take so long from the date of his death?
Possibly, because no Executor claimed Probate (with a Will), or no Next of Kin claimed Administration (when no Will exists), shortly after death.
Possibly no other Beneficiary or Government Dept (say for Tax purposes) made a Legal challenge, or didn't want to challenge in Court.
Possibly the only 'Heir at Law' lived in a house the deceased owned and continued to live there.
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Where two claims appear in Calendars for the same deceased and death date ...
They did claim Probate or Administration, but never completed the process.
A first Probate was only partly dealt with and a second Claim for Probate (a Second Grant) was made later regarding remaining assets.
Mark
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Had you noticed the Elizabeth Ann SEAMANS of Baker Street Nottingham who died 29 Nov 1858
admin ie no will - also to Emma LARKIN on 24 May 1904.
Abraham's is an Admin too.
Elizabeth Ann - is she nee Matthews who married Joshua George SEAMANS in 1828. 2 children Joshua George and Elizabeth Ann. No I think she died 1851
There is a will for Joshua George on Ancestry - probate 1855 - he names his wife as Martha and one of the executors is William Attenborough. Joshua George married Martha ATTENBOROUGH Maldon 1853.
He leaves his pianoforte to his daughter Elizabeth Ann. No mention of son Joshua George who I think died in 1853
Is it Elizabeth Ann the younger who died in Nottingham? she would have been only 17.
If so, that would wipe out that branch of the family (if Martha didn't have any children between 1853 and 1855)
How long did Martha live for? The will is the usual hard to read clerical hand but I think it provides for Martha during her widowhood, and for children, but there is just one son born, in 1854, Robert Attenborough SEAMANS and he died in 1855 as well. Which just leaves Elizabeth Ann and she didn't reach 21.
The money was in trust, so my suspicion would be that eventually they had to sort out the trust and to do that, Emma had to get administration for the other two deaths.
So - That's a theory anyway.
Added
In 1861 Martha is with her Aunt and Uncle EGGLESTON Keyworth, Nottinghamshire age 42, a widow (Aunt was an Attenborough) which might fit with Elizabeth Ann having died in Nottingham in 1858
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I think I've got this right, but complicated by fact I think William VOCE had a first wife also named Martha
Martha SEAMANS married William VOCE Nottingham 1867
She died da dah! August 1903
Added
She had a will. Might be worth spending the £10 and getting it.
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Hello,
I have been contacted by someone with whom I share a common ancestor - Abraham Seaman - and together we have found that he died in 1862 but the probate calendar date is 1904. The probate states that Abraham left his daughter Emma Larkin almost £600.00, but it seems no one else in his family benefited.
Do you have the copy of the probate, the probate calendar will just show the name of the executor /administrator who may not necessarily be a benefactor
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The relevant 1904 probate record actually states-
SEAMANS Abraham of Francis-street Stratford Essex died 18 April 1862 Administration London 19 April to Emma Larkin Widow Effects £595 8s. 6d.
This does not mean that Emma actually received any, all or part of the said amount. She was simply the administrator of the effects mentioned.
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Hello
To apply and get ADMINISTRATION Granted to you, you had to be NEXT OF KIN to the Deceased (in a set order), or the Legal Representative acting for the Next of Kin (and both names appear in the Calendar).
And also the deceased person left no Will, meaning they died Intestate.
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A thorough knowledge of your family tree, should hopefully clear up your query.
Applying for post 1858 Administrations, often don't give much more away, unless it says Administration with Will.
But as Family Historians, we should always endeavour to obtain the original paperwork, to check for any comment.
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I applied for two delayed 1880 England Administrations. I was already aware that three Sisters (all Spinsters) had died from 1853 to 1855.
The Mother of the 3 Daughters (dying 1853 to 1855) died in 1879 and had obviously kept items belonging to two of her late Daughters (who had no Children). When their Mother died 1879, the Spinsters Brother claimed Administration in 1880.
There was a Legal 'pecking order', as it were.
Administrators, had to follow the Law and not their emotions.
My comments are not Legal Advice
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This is quite interesting
https://www.gov.uk/inherits-someone-dies-without-will
Mark
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Theres a Joshua Seamans in 1851 in Maldon
Joshua Seamans Head 54 b abt 1797 Carpenter Employing 1 Man born Heybridge, Essex,
Sarah Seamans Wife 58 b abt 1793 born Braintree, Essex
George Seamans Son 20 b abt 1831 Carpenter born Maldon, Essex
Julia Helen King Grand Daughter 7 b abt 1844 Scholar born Marylebone, Middx
Could this Joshua be Abraham's brother? - same pob Abridge / Heybridge, occupations often run in families, similar age, biblical names
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The Joshua George I was referring to is in Maldon in 1841
High Street. Joshua G SEAMANS 33 Clothier
Elizabeth 32
Priscilla 7
Joshua G 4
in 1851 High Street, All Saints Maldon
Joshua Geo SEAMANS 43 b Maldon Cabinet Maker and Clothier
Elizabeth Ann wife 43
Joshua Geo son 14
Elizabeth Ann 8 all born Maldon
I am sure they must all be connected somehow.
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J G snr b abt 1808 in Maldon, too old to be Joshua b Heybridge's son, but maybe nephew.
There is a baptism for an Abraham Simmons s/o Abraham and Hannah in Heybridge on 23 April 1786 born 17 Feb 1786 - a pauper.
Also Hannah born 17 July, bapt 5 Oct 1788,
Mary born 15 Sep, bapt 16 Oct 1791,
Henrietta born 21 Aug, bapt 29 Sep 1793,
Joseph born 13 Apr bapt 5 Jun 1796
same parents and surname always Simmons not Seamen and no Jushua bapt Heybridge at right time
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Baptism St Marys Maldon
Joshua George Simmons son of Abraham and Mary bapt 16 Sep 1807.
Surname Simmons again ???
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oh well done, I had decided the spelling must be different, but hadn't found that yet
if you think about how you say SEAMANS and SIMMONS it is a minor change in the vowel sounds
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working hypothesis
Abraham with wife Hannah at Heybridge.
At some point Hannah dies and Abraham moves to Maldon (could be in different order) and Abraham remarries Mary. Has more children including Joshua George which would account for largish age difference.
Abraham who died 1862 = half brother of Joshua George the Clothier who died 1855
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Maybe the older Joshua b Heybridge was really Joseph. I have a chap in my tree who is either Joshua or Josiah depending on the way the wind's blowing. Rare surname so I know it's only one person.
While I'm in Maldon records, I'll see if I can find any more Seaman(s) /Simmons
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Found a possible marriage in Great Hawkesley (some way from Heybridge, though)
Abraham Simmons married Hannah Hankin on 9 June 1783, wit Benjamin Hankin and James Marshall Hannah made her mark - others signed. James Marshall has witnessed other marriages on same page. Hannah is otp, Abraham is of parish of Allthorn or similar.
added
Just looked at record more closely
The clerk has written Simmons, but Abrahams has signed Seamans!
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Found parish called Althorne just south east of Heybridge - this is looking good!
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Looks like ERO doesn't have anything that far back for Althorne, even fiche of BTs in their searchroom only goes back as far as 1800. Unless the place was so small, baptisms etc were in a neighbouring church
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There's a lot of Seaman(s) / Simmons in Fordham, south of Great Horkesley and on route to Heybridge, may be connected.
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Fordham baptism 25 Dec 1759, Abraham Seaman s/o Abraham and Elizabeth. Could he be the one who married Hannah in nearby Great H, but had been residing just before marriage in Althorne? Maybe working there and after marriage they went to live in Althorne or nearby Heybridge?
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Marriage at Fordham 29 Aug 1756, Abraham Simmonds (sic) otp bac and Elizabeth Butler of Stanway sp. Both made mark, but clerk has written "Abraham Seamans his mark" on the groom signature line. Witnesses, William Steel (marked) and Samuel Bowls (witnessed most marriages on the page)
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Also at Fordham
burial of Elizabeth Simmons wife of Abraham 2 April 1786 and
baptism of Letitia Simmons d/o Abraham and Elizabeth on 21 June 1767,
marriage of Lettishia Seamans and Luke Springet on 21 Aug 1791, both made mark.
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WOW!
Thank you to everyone for your efforts up to now. Sorry I haven't replied, I've literally just got back in from work.
It's going to take time to sift through all this, so please bear with me - I need a cup of tea first!
I agree about the spelling, and about first names changing sometimes, as I've had this is other parts of my tree. I had found various Seamen's / Simmons / Simmonds in and around the area, but never found a birth/baptism record for anyone.
I'll contact the other person looking into Abraham to see if anything from what you have found matches up with her findings.
Thanks again,
Lindsey
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J G snr b abt 1808 in Maldon, too old to be Joshua b Heybridge's son, but maybe nephew.
There is a baptism for an Abraham Simmons s/o Abraham and Hannah in Heybridge on 23 April 1786 born 17 Feb 1786 - a pauper.
Also Hannah born 17 July, bapt 5 Oct 1788,
Mary born 15 Sep, bapt 16 Oct 1791,
Henrietta born 21 Aug, bapt 29 Sep 1793,
Joseph born 13 Apr bapt 5 Jun 1796
same parents and surname always Simmons not Seamen and no Jushua bapt Heybridge at right time
Hi LizzieL
Could you please tell me where you found these baptism records?
Thank you
Lindsey
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They are on the Essex record office site, but it is a subscription site. Free reg has quite a lot of Essex records too. The only thing about ERO / SEAX site is that they aren't indexed, you need to browse through the records, so I start with Freereg or a search of index on FindMyPast and if I find a likely one I can go straight to register. If you have a lot of Essex people and you have a fair idea where to find them, it may be worth taking out a one day or one week sub and blitzing them all in one go.
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They are on the Essex record office site, but it is a subscription site. Free reg has quite a lot of Essex records too. The only thing about ERO / SEAX site is that they aren't indexed, you need to browse through the records, so I start with Freereg or a search of index on FindMyPast and if I find a likely one I can go straight to register. If you have a lot of Essex people and you have a fair idea where to find them, it may be worth taking out a one day or one week sub and blitzing them all in one go.
Thank you,
Can I access all the Essex records online or would I need to visit the office for some of them? I only ask because its a long time since I left Essex, and don't have much reason to go back - except to do this!
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A lot of records are on line
you should be able to check what's available here
https://secureweb1.essexcc.gov.uk/SeaxPAM/Default.aspx?SearchDocs=1&intSearchType=12
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Woke up this am to your overnight work Lizzie. How satisfying!