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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Banffshire => Topic started by: agray1949 on Thursday 20 September 18 14:12 BST (UK)
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I have downloaded a Catholic baptism record from Scotland's people & am not sure what a couple of the phrases are so could anyone help me please.
Also all bar 2 of the entries on the page refer to the child as the lawful son or daughter of so & so. Does this mean that the child was born out of wedlock.
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You will also be able to get his birth registration from Scotlands People.
I could find nothing under Gillies or anything similar but there is a birth registered under the surname of Ingram Ref 150/27 which looks like him. Worth checking and also points to him being born out of wedlock.
Dorrie
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Thanks Dorrie
I have just printed that out & they are the same person. It looks as if he has taken Elspet/Elsie Lobot as his mothers name because that is what is on his marriage & death certificates which threw me a bit.
I would still like to know what the unreadable words were if you can work them out. Just out of pure curiosity.
Alan
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I think the first one is (then Prot:) suggesting that William Gillies was a Protestant at the time but that he had subsequently converted.
The second one looks like (Apos:) - could it be Apostate, i.e. she was Catholic but had abandoned her religion?
The third one is 'baptised by me" - the standard form in RC baptisms.
The second witness, by the way, is W Clapperton. The Clapperton family were a prominent Catholic family in this area, and produced some sons who became priests.
Yes, I think that James Gillies was illegitimate.
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Thank you Forfarian.
Once again you have come up trumps with a clear & concise answer.
I think the family may have chopped & changed religion as they went along as James married my Grandmother Alexina Gray in the Church of Scotland in 1917.
Interestingly William & Elspet Loban had a daughter Mary Ann born also in 1975 so I reckon he was being a naughty boy back then.
Also James assumed his mother Elspet's name on his marriage & death certificates.
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Interestingly William & Elspet Loban had a daughter Mary Ann born also in 1975 so I reckon he was being a naughty boy back then.
Also James assumed his mother Elspet's name on his marriage & death certificates.
Now I am confused.
The baptism says his mother was Louisa Ingram, and that is confirmed by the birth certificate that lists him as James Ingram. How does Elspet Lobban come into the picture?
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I too was confused until I re-read it!
Mother married...
INGRAM ELIZA MARGARET & LOBBAN PETER 1938
159/ 12 Keith
Annie
Add...Actually, I have read it again & I'm back to being confused!!! ;D
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Hullo again.
Louisa INGRAM is known to me. She was baptised a Catholic (see LIBINDX NM211645). She also went by the names Elizabeth INGRAM and Eliza INGRAM, and you'll find her as Lewis INGRAM in Seatown Cullen in 1881 (other names in that census entry are wrong too). It's not surprising she lapsed - she had a string of illegitimate children - I knew of three and James GILLIES (or INGRAM) is now a fourth. She did eventually marry, then calling herself as Louisa Bremner INGRAM. She was clearly a wild one - an old man in Cullen who knew her in her old age and interviewed by one of her descendants described her in a way not repeatable here!
The GILLIES family were Catholic - NM073253 shows this, the father marrying Elspet LOBBAN shortly before the illeg child was born (which must explain James' citing her as his mother). The 1881 census shows the child being brought up by its gdparents in Cullen (surname recorded as GELLIS) before finding his own way.
It does look as though William GILLIES got two women pregnant at the same time, so no wonder Elspet LOBBAN wouldn't take on her competitor's child! Louisa INGRAM was clearly feckless - a later child Peter INGRAM born in 1878 was eventually taken in by her sister Ann INGRAM and her husband William GEDDES. Peter became Peter GEDDES then Peter GEDDES INGRAM, but eventually the INGRAM faded away and by the time his children died the surname had become just GEDDES. Most of the Geddes MIs in Deskford churchyard are in fact for this Ingram family. Which caused me at least no end of confusion, especially that Peter recurs every generation in my family right back to before 1700.
It took a very long time to untangle everything - only to find none of this family were related to me.
Hope that fills in some background.
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Mother married...
INGRAM ELIZA MARGARET & LOBBAN PETER 1938 159/ 12 Keith
Are you saying that Louisa Ingram who had an illegitimate child in 1875 married as Eliza Margaret Ingram 63 years later, and that Louisa's son James adopted his future stepfather's surname 21 years before he became his stepfather? ???
I think I need to retire to a darkened room with a wet cloth over my head ;)
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No Forfarian!!!... ;D
I hadn't checked dates (was too interested in names) & after posting I realised hence my 'Add' rather than just delete it ::)
Annie
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James listed Elspet Loban as his mother on both his marriage certificates (he wasn't a bigamist) & his death certificate.
The dates & names on the Catholic register tie in with the date & mothers name in the birth certificate which is why I tied them together.
I was unaware of all the extra children as I have only recently branched out to this side as James married Alexina Gray(my grandmother) after my father George Burns Fordyce Gray was born to a George Fordyce in Portessie.
So it seems that having children out of wedlock was not too uncommon.
The name Geddes has been mentioned which also ties (loosely) with this family as George Fordyce's mother was Anne Geddes (1843 - 1905), and I did not realise how common the name Geddes was until I started looking for gravestones.
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Annie
Phew! :)
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Thanks agray for the info. on 'Lobab/Lobban' after throwing it into the mix when nobody was looking :D
However, having read through your posts & the complexities, the marriage I found may be of interest at a later date :-\
Annie
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James listed Elspet Loban as his mother on both his marriage certificates (he wasn't a bigamist) & his death certificate.
The dates & names on the Catholic register tie in with the date & mothers name in the birth certificate which is why I tied them together.
I was unaware of all the extra children as I have only recently branched out to this side as James married Alexina Gray(my grandmother) after my father George Burns Fordyce Gray was born to a George Fordyce in Portessie.
So it seems that having children out of wedlock was not too uncommon.
The name Geddes has been mentioned which also ties (loosely) with this family as George Fordyce's mother was Anne Geddes (1843 - 1905), and I did not realise how common the name Geddes was until I started looking for gravestones.
Meet Robert McGregor who was known for having over 20 illegitimate children in his lifetime and they were only the ones who were known to us - I can only presume there must have been something in his tea . . .
The joke in my family was Gregor "Willox" Mcgregor Robert McGregor's son: He could make sterile cows milk and make barren lasses pregnant - little did their husbands know it was him that was making them "preggers" . . . ; )