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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: Talacharn on Thursday 20 September 18 23:07 BST (UK)
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I am looking for information relating to James W Ladner and his wife Harriett who moved to Ruan Minor, Helston from London. He was a teacher and in 1916, registered to teach in Ruan Minor. In London, he reached Head Teacher with London County Council with one of his subjects being art.
The earliest Electoral Register is 1922, listing them at Troworder, which I believe is Treworder Farm next to the Church and School. From 1923 to 1929 they are listed along with others at Churchtown, which I assume is simply an area Ruan Minor was divided into. Harriett died in 1933 and James W in 1941 and know they are burried in St Ruan CofE Church. At the time, they were living at Glebe Cottage. The other week I called at Ruan Minor and asked a few locals for its location, but nothing. They commented on outsiders moving to the village and changing the names of house, giving them Cornish ones.
A date as to when they arrived in Ruan Minor? Did James W Ladner teach at Ruan Minor School? Where is Glebe Cottage?
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James W Ladner was born in 1854 so by 1916 he was 62 and by 1923 he was nearly 70.
I think electoral registers were suspended during WW1 so it may be difficult to establish exactly when he moved to Cornwall.
Have you viewed the 1939 entry which may help re location of Glebe Cottage
Is he an ancestor? 4 sons born to them but 2 died in infancy
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It might need a trip to the Record Office in Truro which holds the records of Grade and Ruan Minor National School (later Grade-Ruan Church of England School).
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/54fed924-bd49-42a5-be98-75d82980ac62
Philip
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Thanks
1939 England and Wales Electoral Register
Glebe Cottage, Ruan Minor
James W Ladner; 85; Widowed; b. 3 February 1854
John E Ladner; 55 (Son)
Lillian Dorcas Janet 31
I know he registered to teach in Ruan Minor 1916, though accept his age at the time.
At present the Achives in Truro are closed. I contacted them and they looked but could find any information.
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My reason for researching is quite vague. In the 1970s, I was given a hand-painted watercolour postcard of Church Cove by my great-aunt Jane in Winsford Cheshire. (A similar question has been asked on the Cheshire Board, of Harriet Ladner who moved to Over, Winsford.) I have established James W Ladner painted the postcard and it was sent to Harriett in Winsford one Christmas.
I also accept, there will be parts where I do not find an answer. Having established so much from very little to start with, I am hoping people with local knowledge may be able to offer insights.
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If you have the 1939 Register original in front of you, plus/minus a couple of pages, you should be able to see something there that gives you a clue as to where the cottage was, on the basis that the written Register was "in house/road order". e.g. maybe he's listed 6 doors down from a pub, or between an address that's identifiable and another fixed point.
If you have all the addresses written down in front of you (the Register) ... something might make sense.
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On Find My Past the 1939 is only available with the monthly Plus and Pro subscriptions, which is not me. I use the library, though some 1939 records have been offered while there, on times with a line missing.
I know, James W Ladner is living at Glebe Cottage as he is listed on the 1939 Electoral Register, but trying a 1939 free search with Find My Past it cannot find him. I will try again tomorrow in the library.
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The 1939 Electoral Register I mentioned seeing, I believe was actually the 1939 Register, as the information show was the same as sample images.
Searching in the library, Find My Past could not locate a James W Ladner at Ruan Minor, whereas Ancestry offered me a correct result, but I have to subscribe to go any further. I have already viewed the page once. How, Why? I do not know. My intention was to follow the suggestion of StanleysChesterton of looking either side of Glebe Cottage to see if it gave a landmark. I will visit Cornwall again and walk around Ruan Minor, as last time it was a little rushed.
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1907 Map Ruan Minor-
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/index.html#/Map/172049/15229/12/101040
Use zoom (-) to reveal old map.
Glebe Cottage not named on the map but on the 1911 Census it is listed immediately before the Post Office.
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Thanks hanes teulu. At present, I have not subscribed to old maps, but found the Old Post Office and a photograph of it in 1931, so assume it was located at the same place in 1911. Very close to Treworder Farm where they first lived as well as the church and school. Understandable why it was referred to as Churchtown in the electoral registers. On one side there is a semi-detached cottage called Fuchsia Cottage which may not be the original name and Google-Maps does not allow me to see the other side.
A local history group meet in the Post Office café area, every 3rd Tuesday of the month. I sent an email to the (new) post office before being aware of the group. The response said they had only been in the village for five years so did not know the location of Glebe Cottage. I will arrange to visit again and try to meet the group.
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In Ruan Minor I am searching for Glebe Cottage where James William and Harriett Ladner lived. See my other post relating to their life, but because this is about a property, I felt it best to start a fresh post. Being a newbie, I never thought of questioning the meaning of Glebe.
Glebe Land Definition: Glebe is land owned in order to provide income, to pay parochial clergy. Once part of a parish priest’s ancient freehold, and passed on from vicar to vicar, glebe income provided the means to live; however many parishes, particularly urban ones, had no glebe and so clergy incomes varied widely and unfairly. Glebe in this diocese consists mainly of agricultural land and commercial properties, all of which are handled by specialist agents.
Was Glebe Cottage owned by the Church of England?
Ruan Minor: St Rumon – Church Code: 639053
The name suggests it was, and the family had very close links with the church.
My hunch is, at some point after 1941 when J.W. Ladner died, the cottage was sold and then renamed.
Is there anywhere I can look at records relating to Glebe property?
I have sent an email to Truro Diocese, but to date there has been no response.
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Link to previous post
topics now merged
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There is mention on the other thread about Glebe Cottage being before the PO on the 1911 census.
If you look at this side by side map you can see that most of the properties still stand so it is likely that Glebe Cottage does too:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=18&lat=49.9934&lon=-5.1820&layers=168&right=BingHyb
I presume you have seen the Francis Frith photos?
https://www.francisfrith.com/ruan-minor/ruan-minor-the-church-1931_84298
You might have more luck with a local history group:
http://www.ruanminorstore.co.uk/community.php
(if they don't know the answer they might know where to look to find it)
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I have seen the photographs. Until I visit again next week, I do not know if there is a property the other side of the post office, or if it is only farm outbuildings. My hunch is a semi-detached cottage, which is next door and shown in the photographs. It is now called Fuchsia Cottage and probably not original. The only issue is a path that runs between the old post office and Fuchsia Cottage and another the other side. On present maps, one building now makes Leggy's pasties. When the property is described as being next to the post office, but in which direction?
I do not have access to census records, apart from in the library, and do not know how to search for a road, or row of houses. Establishing the neighbours, or even more houses, their names may not have changed and it would also confirm the direction. If looking at the old post office, to the left, there is Trewarder Farm and possibly a house between, but no more. Right of the post office there would be many houses.
Starting this search the other month, I contacted the owners of the present post office/general store looking for Glebe Cottage. Their reply said they could not help as they had only lived in the village for 5 years. They did not mention the local history group that meet there the 3rd Tuesday each month. I am now aware of the group and hoping to meet with them next week.
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I don't think it can be Fuchsia Cottage - there was a Fuchsia Cottage in Ruan Minor in 1939 and it was next to the Post Office. Between Treworder and Glebe Cottage, there appear the following:
Rose Cottage; The Haven (which was a bungalow); and Glebe House.
Poltesco Mill appears after Glebe Cottage and this is not in the village itself. Fuchsia Cottage is 18th century in origin and a listed building:
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=64633&mode=quick
The original Post Office is also a listed building:
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/details/default.aspx?id=64631
and the Haven is another:
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/details/default.aspx?id=64634
The Post Office changed locations between 1911 and 1960 - probably by 1939. I've drawn some arrows on the map ruskie posted.
Nell
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https://www.google.com/maps/@49.9930728,-5.1817981,3a,37.5y,325.75h,79.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4r2N2pQr3y8RsQYIYFdN0w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
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Thanks Little Nell. I assumed the old post office was just that. It did not cross my mind there was an even older one. Next door to the 1911 post office, there is a row of cottages, and the end one might be Glebe Cottage. I did look at them when I was in the village last month.
In being called Glebe Cottage, it suggests being owned by the church. The family had close links to the Church of England and he taught in their schools. When they lived there, it was Glebe Cottage, but after 1941 when he died, it may have been sold. At that point its name could have changed. On Google Maps I cannot see a name on it, but next door is Whelk Cottage. There is also a cottage behind the 1911 post office.
If Poltesco follows Glebe Cottage, there are two old cottages just as you leave the village towards Poltesco.
Talking to some of the older locals, there was an awareness of Glebe Cottage, but they could not place it. Some complained of outsiders moving into the village and changing house names to Cornish ones, even though they are not Cornish.
The issue is, when did the post office move? From 1923 to 1941, the Ladners lived in Glebe Cottage.
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So is there a local estate agent??
They often have old maps etc...
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I have had a response from the new post office, the local history group I was hoping to meet next week have disbanded. There is a Facebook page, the friends of Ruan Minor who might be able to help. That is probably why they were not mentioned when I contacted the new post office last month.
I need a map of Ruan Minor from around 1930. The rocords office in Truro is closed at present for refurbishment. As for estate agents, I do not know who they are.
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I know this will not provide you with any detailed old map, but this site allows you to zoom right in on the village and to see individual plots with their current names.
https://map.cornwall.gov.uk/website/ccmap/?zoomlevel=10&xcoord=171980&ycoord=15185&wsName=ccmap&layerName=
Since there is a Glebe Terrace adjacent to the older Post Office site, now Trevaze House, that might be worth investigating.
I have looked at the Cornwall OPC site as well. It is possible that the co-ordinator for Ruan Minor may know some local resources that you might try.
Another possibility is Cornwall FHS in Lemon Street in Truro:
https://www.cornwallfhs.com/
Unfortunately the Cornish Studies Library and the Record Office are closed in preparation for their move to a new site.
Nell
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In being a newbie I have learnt not to make assumptions, but it is something I continue to do. Looking at a 1931 photograph of the building that was the post office of 1960, in 1931 it does not look like it was trading. Other photographs of similar buildings, name important ones, so surely the post office in that series would be named.
Trevase House on Glebe Terrace was the post office in 1911. The houses around Glebe Place are all of the same year and too young for my search. As for Glebe Terrace there is a possibility noted as number 5 on the map. From Google Maps I cannot see a name and did not find one last month when I visited. I may need to knock on the door of number 5. With the mentions of Glebe in a specific area of the village, most of it, at one time, must have been owned by the church. On the council map, there is no mention of Glebe House, but one existed. I feel land and property was sold by the church. In doing so reference remains in the road names, but the properties have been renamed to remove that association with the church. There are two other contenders for Glebe Cottage, a semi-detached pair behind Trevase House called Glenhurst and Roselyn. It would fit with the census, when Glebe Cottage is followed by a property in Poltesco as they are on Poltesco Lane. But both names are likely to be original.
Today I had a reply from Truro Dioceses and they have no records of Glebe House. They only suggested the records office, but I am aware they are closed and in the process of moving. I have also sent an email to Cornwall FHS asking, but do not fancy paying £38 membership to find one property.
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Some Ruan Minor residents put the name of their cottage on their 1911 Census return - the occupant of Glebe Cottage was an example. However, the cottage names were omitted from the Enumerator's List - viewable under "Related Images" on FindMyPast.
Check for "Willey, Ruan Minor" 1911 Census, note cottage name and check the Enumerator's List.
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Kelly's Directory Devon/Cornwall 1914
http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/296369
A description of Ruan Minor 1914. It identifies the Post Office which ties in with the 1911 details. Unfortunately cottage names only appears against a few entries. The 1911 occupant of Glebe Cottage is not listed. One or two names on the 1911 Census are mentioned with the address "Churchtown" - I think! I did this check some weeks ago and don't have the the notes I made at the time (currently on holiday).
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Hi hanes teulu,
I am in Cornwall at present and both yesterday and today I called at Ruan Minor. Today I knocked on a few doors of possibles for Glebe Cottage. The first was New Thatch, but the present owner showed me a detailed history and it has always been called New Thatch. I then knocked at 5 Glebe Terrace and had a good chat with an elderly guy. Another older guy was walking past, so I was introduced. He used to be the postman and in the 1940s as a student, he could be pulled out of school if the post required delivering. He felt there was a Ladner in the village who possibly taught in the school. That is accurate. As for Glebe Cottage, yet another who can remember the name but not where it was. He said the 1960s Post Office, of which there are photographs, was there in the 1940s. The previous Post Office of 1911, continued as a shop. In the electoral registers 1922 - 1929, the Ladners are listed as living at Churchtown. He explained that the area between Treworder Farm and the church was called Churchtown. There was at least one cottage, of rustic construction, and demolished to build bungalows, along with more housing now known as Glebe Place in the 1940s. He feels that was Glebe Cottage. It would make sense, that after Glebe Cottage in the 1911 census, the recorder went to Poltesco. The census said it was also next to the Post Office, which makes more sense from what I have heard today. I feel my search has ended, it was a hope that Glebe Cottaage could be still standing, but it now seem not to be the case. The Church of England, local history society, Cornwall Archives etc. have no information. My search, attempted to unpick a few clues on a postcard, and I have found so much more than I ever imagined, thanks to help from RootsChat.
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Hi Talacharn,
I'm in Devon at the moment chasing "rellies" via Exeter Archives.
You have mentioned "Rose Cottage". A while ago I checked Ruan Minor via Streetview for that property without success (linked to my 1911 findings). Can you confirm where it is? Is it close to Trevaze House (found on Streetview with name partially blurred out) on Poltesco Lane?
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I have not found a Rose Cottage walking around. There are 5 cottages next to Trevaze House and I knocked at number 5. There is a pair of semi-detached on Poltesco Lane, but the names today seem original. I also knocked at New Thatch, where I saw a detailed history of the house. Little Nel mentioned Rose Cottage from the 1939 Register. ‘Between Treworder and Glebe Cottage, there appear the following: Rose Cottage; The Haven (which was a bungalow); and Glebe House. Poltesco Mill appears after Glebe Cottage and this is not in the village itself.’ It seems the area known as Churchtown was between Treworder Farm and the church. Glebe Cottage could have been cob construction and rotted over time. When the church sold land for a housing estate in the 1940s Glebe Cottage, Glebe House and possibly Rose Cottage were sold, in gaining more money as building land. There seems nothing between Bay View House/Post Office and Treworder Farm. The Haven throws me, as modern maps show it at the other end of that road, opposite to what is now the Post Office and it is very old. There may have been another house of that name, defined by the Churchtown prefix. The guy I spoke to, was sure the Post Office in 1940, and probably earlier, was at Bay View House. The earlier Post Office at Trevaze House, shown on an 1911 map, had stopped by then, but for a while it traded as a shop. He said, there was more than one property referred to as Churchtown, which would account for those listed by Little Nel. In the business register, there are several, with some listed as appartments.
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Thanks for the update
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It would appear in the 1940s, those buildings that made up Churchtown were razed to the ground, possibly because of the expense in rebuilding. Looking at those recorded in the 1911 Census, they are a mix of people from retired dressmaker and a charwoman, to Serpentine stone workers, to individuals living by private means and having a servant. One person I am interested in, is Charles Eyres Simmons, a watercolour artist or Landscape Painter as he is described by profession. Of a similar age to James William Ladner, both of the Hampton Court/Kingston area and both with an interest in watercolour. By 1911, he is living at Churchtown, but not Glebe Cottage. Then in 1916, the Ladners moved to Churchtown, though initially stayed at Treworder Farm next door. Coincidence, or did Eyres Simmons influence their decision to move to Ruan Minor? Trying to find more about Eyres Simmons, I have posted on the London and Middlesex board: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802239.0 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802239.0) There is very little information online, so I am hoping local knowledge may uncover where Eyres Simmons learnt to paint and where he taught.
The postcard is by ‘Jotter’ or Walter Hayward-Young who was a prolific artist touring Great Britain producing over 800 images, many of which were made into postcards. This one is of Ruan Minor and may show Glebe Cottage and Rose Cottage. When I next visit, it will be shown to the elderly guy I spoke with, to see if he recognises where the cottages were.