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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: Blueboy007 on Friday 21 September 18 19:26 BST (UK)
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Hello, I hope someone can help me clear up some confusion regarding my ancestor Thomas Edward Turner. I also hope that I have posted on the right board.
I know that he was born on the 20th May 1872 in Bradford, Yorkshire at 5 Rifle Court. He was the son of Llewelyn Turner and Mary Turner (nee Brodigan). Llewelyn was born in Ruthin.
At the 1881 census he was in Hafodybwych Cottage, Esclusham Below, Wrexham. He was living with his parents and siblings.
At the 1891 census he was in the same residence, living with his mother and siblings. His occupation was recorded as a miner.
I cannot find him in the 1901 Census.
I found a 1911 census record that shows a Thomas Edward Turner, born in Bradford, living at 66 Ramford Street, St. Helens. His age is shown as 37 and his occupation is listed as an iron erector, working in a glass-works. He is listed as being single, but also living here is a daughter, Hilda Louise V Turner, aged 1. Other residents at the address include:
Kate L Doyle, married, aged 40, born St Helens, a boarder.
James Turner, single, aged 15, born Cliviger, Lancs., a boarder.
Nellie Turner, single, aged 13, born Cliviger, Lancs., a boarder.
Gwendoline I Williams, aged 5 months, born St Helens, his niece.
The original census image shows that James and Nellie were the son and daughter of Kate, but these are crossed out and replaced with the word boarder. Kate was listed as being the housekeeper, but again, this is crossed out and replaced with boarder.
I looked on the GRO website for a Gwendoline I Williams born in 1910 or 1911 but could not find one. However, I do know that Thomas Edward Turner did have a niece called Gwendoline Isabel SUTTON, who was born in St Helens on 30th October 1910, which would have made her 5 months old in April 1911, at the time of the census.
I ordered the birth certificate for Hilda Louise Valdermar Turner, born on the 26th November 1909 at 66 Ramford Street, St Helens (as per 1911 Census). It records her father as a Thomas Edward Vernon Turner, a mechanical engineer. The mother is listed as Catherine Louisa Turner, late Turner, formerly Prescott.
I also ordered a birth certificate for James Turner, born 24th September 1895, at Walkmill, Cliviger. It lists his father as a John Turner, a coal miner, with the mother listed as Caroline Turner, nee Prescott. I wonder if this is the “Catherine Prescott”, mother of Hilda.
To confuse matters even more, I also found a marriage on 12th March 1920, for a Thomas Edward Vernon Turner, aged 44, listed as SINGLE, a marine engineer, marriage to an Ethel Browne. The father is listed as Llewelyn Turner, a marine engineer, deceased (I do know that Llewelyn was not a marine engineer, he was an engine driver). The marriage took place in Gloucester.
In addition to this, I also found a military record for a Thomas Edward Turner, born 20th May 1875 (same day and month, different year shown), in Bradford. It shows that he was in the RAF, but had previously been in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers (I cannot find enlistment records for this). The RAF record shows that the next of kin to be informed is a Kate Turner, unmarried wife, of 24 Park Road, St. Helens. Also listed is his daughter, Hilda Louise Turner. It states date of discharge as 30th April 1920 and address at date of discharge as British Embassy, Constantinople.
Am I looking at 2 separate Thomas Edward Turner’s here? Any thoughts would be welcomed.
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Couldn’t Kate L Doyle be Catherine Louise formerly Prescott?
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.
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Nellie? And another daughter?
TURNER, ELLEN PRESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in THE BURNLEY UNION Volume 08E Page 19
TURNER, MARY PRESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1900 M Quarter in THE BURNLEY UNION Volume 08E Page 176
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This looks like Kate, James and Nelly on 1901. Question is who is John?
15 Argyle St, Loscoe, Yorkshire
John Turner 34 - b St Helens, coal cutter
Kate Turner 32 - b St Helens
William Turner 17 - b Layton, Lancs
Kate Turner 7 - b Chorley, Lancs
James Turner 5 - b Cliviger
Nelly Turner 3 - b Cliviger
RG13, 4296, 5,: 2
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This birth fits
TURNER, CATHERINE PRESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1893 S Quarter in CHORLEY Volume 08E Page 528
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Some baptisms
8 Oct 1895 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Jacobus Turner - filius Joannis Turner & Catherinae (formerly Prescott)
Born: 24 Sep 1895
Abode: 36 Warp Mill Terrace
Godparents: Helena Walsh, Godmother
22 Dec 1897 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Helena Turner - filia Joannis Turner & Catarinae (formerly Prescott)
Born: 9 Nov 1897
Abode: Cliviger
Godparents: Gulielmus Turner; Bertha Cunliffe
27 Jan 1900 St Mary of the Assumption, Burnley, Lancashire, England
Maria Turner - filia Joannis Turner & Catherinae (formerly Prescott)
Born: 14 Jan 1900
Abode: 12 Admiral St.
Godparents: Maria Foden
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Catherine Louisa PRESCOTT. Daughter of Thomas PRESCOTT and Catherine CRAWLEY.
Marriage 1867. ( sorry I’m on my iPad, it’s harder to copy everything over)
They had a lot of children Catherine L. 6 mths with them in 1871 and age 10 in 1881. NOT with them in 1891.
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Marriages Dec 1901
DOYLE Walter Pontefract 9c 195
JARVIS Frances Florence Pontefract 9c 195
TURNER Kate Louisa Pontefract 9c 195
Williams William Pontefract 9c 195
Marriage register is on Ancestry. dec 21 1901.
She is a widow 32. Father Thomas Prescott.
Walter Doyle only 23. Bachelor, Miner
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This this is her first husband's death (not that I've found a marriage)
John Turner
Age 35 (b abt 1866)
Q2 1901 Pontefract VOl 9c p75
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Walter Doyle killed in action 24 dec 1916
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1911 he’s married, boarder in Guest household, St Helens.
Says he had one child who has died
Possibly
DOYLE, JOSEPH EDWARD PRESCOTT
GRO Reference: 1902 J Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 837
Added death
Deaths Jun 1907
DOYLE Joseph Edward 4 Prescot 8b 445
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Walter Doyle’s effects to His widow Catherine Turner
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Very tantalising document on FindMyPast https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f007295263%2f00948&parentid=gbm%2fwo363-4%2f7295263%2f47%2f945
Particulars as to marriage and next of kin seem to have been rubbed out, but you can JUST see Kate Prescott
Then there is a torn document very faint that looks as though they have been trying to trace her. There is mention of him lodging with Mr Guest.
Oh, next page is typed note, says when he joined gave his wife as Kate Doyle, address unknown. They notified his mother and asked for wife’s address. No reply.
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A coincidence?
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3792832/3792838/37/
Regards
Roger
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I know that he was born on the 20th May 1872 in Bradford, Yorkshire at 5 Rifle Court. He was the son of Llewelyn Turner and Mary Turner (nee Brodigan). Llewelyn was born in Ruthin.
To confuse matters even more, I also found a marriage on 12th March 1920, for a Thomas Edward Vernon Turner, aged 44, listed as SINGLE, a marine engineer, marriage to an Ethel Browne. The father is listed as Llewelyn Turner, a marine engineer, deceased (I do know that Llewelyn was not a marine engineer, he was an engine driver). The marriage took place in Gloucester.
Am I looking at 2 separate Thomas Edward Turner’s here? Any thoughts would be welcomed.
1939. 4 Charles Walk, Bristol. Is Thomas E Turner birth 20 May 1872. Retired and Ethel E Turner dob 2 Oct 1881
There are 5 redacted entries
But on FindMyPast one has been unlocked. Hubert Brown, plumber dob 17 July 1917
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Thank you all so much for this really valuable information.
McKha489, thank you, I thought that Kate L Doyle might actually be Catherine L Prescott as well. The information on the letter is very intriguing, at first glance it looks like she did not want to be traced. I will order some of the certificates listed to see if I can get any information from these.
Mabel, thank you for the information. The baptism records are really useful. I know that James (Jacobus) was born on the 24th September 1895. The others listed will be Nelly and Mary.
Roger, thank you for the newspaper article, that does look like more than a coincidence. I will try to research that angle.
Thanks everyone. It looks like Thomas Edward Turner lived quite a complicated life!
Best wishes
Stephen
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I found a marriage for a John Turner, Prescot 1882 Q4 8B 058, but no wife name is listed under the transcription. This might be a possibility for a marriage to Catherine Prescott.
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I found a marriage for a John Turner, Prescot 1882 Q4 8B 058, but no wife name is listed under the transcription. This might be a possibility for a marriage to Catherine Prescott.
Yes I looked at that, but on FreeBMD
Marriages Dec 1882
Burke Michel Prescot 8b 1058
Maguire Mary Prescot 8b 1058
Marsh Cecilia Prescot 8b 1058
TURNER John Prescot 8b 1058
So not hopeful
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I was trying to find the birth of William who is 17 in 1901. I have failed.
Is he John and Kate’s? / illegit child of Kate/. Child of John by previous wife?
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Hello McKha489,
Thank you for the information on the marriage, I can rule that one out now.
The only William that I have found is:
William Henry Turner ASHTON UNDER LYNE 1886 Q3 08D 554 (mother PRESCOTT)
I have not ordered the birth certificate yet for that one, but it is a Lancashire registration district.
Stephen
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Hello McKha489,
Thank you for the information on the marriage, I can rule that one out now.
The only William that I have found is:
William Henry Turner ASHTON UNDER LYNE 1886 Q3 08D 554 (mother PRESCOTT)
I have not ordered the birth certificate yet for that one, but it is a Lancashire registration district.
Stephen
Don;t think that's him - there are some other Turner-Prescott children born in Ashton in the next few years including an Alfred in 1888, and a Mary J Prescott and John James Turner potential marriage in Ashton in 1882
There's this in Ashton in 1891
Mary Ann Bowen 61
Mary J Turner 29 - niece, married
Esther Prescott 30 - niece, married
William H Turner 4
Alfred Turner 2
Joseph Turner 1
Mary, JOhn and children are still around in 1901
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Thank you very much for this Mabel, I appreciate it.
Stephen
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An update.
I have received the death certificate for John Turner (reference Pontefract 1901 Q2 9C 75). It shows that he died on 25th May 1901 at 15 Loscoe, Ackton, Featherstone. He was 35 at the time of his death. His occupation is a coal miner.
The certificate states that the informant was his widow, a L Turner (could Catherine have been using her middle name Louisa I wonder?). The address where they resided is consistent with the 1901 census that shows John and Catherine at Loscoe.
The final piece of the jigsaw is to find evidence of a marriage between John and Catherine.
Thank you again everyone for your help.
Stephen