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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Cork => Topic started by: GRO10a852 on Saturday 22 September 18 11:38 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I am looking at marriages and deaths on the website:
https://corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/potpourri/corkancestors.com/Deathsmarriages.htm
I am interested in a marriage referenced as (CMC 16/6/1802) (marriage Audley to Blair)
Clearly 16/6/1802 is the date but what is the publication referenced as CMC?
Are there archives somewhere of CMC so that I can check if the original has more information?
Thanks for your help
Regards
The Wirral Way
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https://corkgen.org/publicgenealogy/cork/potpourri/corkancestors.com/index.htm
CMC= Cork Mercantile Chronicle
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aghadowey,
Thanks for that and it probably explains why their first child was baptised in Liverpool England
Can you recomend a website where I can see a copu of 16th June 1802 on line?
Regards
The Wirral Way
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Newspapers.com have Cork Mercantile Chronicle. it is a subscription site but they offer "7 Day Free Trial"
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Chinapaddy,
Thanks for your reply
Whilst I accept that Newspaper.com has a '7 Day Free Trial' one has to enter ones Credit Card Details before they will give you the Free 7 days trial!!
Thanks for your help
GRO10a852
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I can just add some more information to what you have -
From Rosemary Ffolliot's Newspaper extracts available on microfiche at the Cork City Library
The following birth, marriage and death records -
AUDLEY
CMC 16 June 1802 last week Capt. George Audley to Miss Blair of Bantry ( married at Christchurch June 11th)
SR 13 Nov 1819 Monday last in this city Lady Audley of a son
CMI 27 Nov 1821 at his Lordship's house South Mall, on Friday evening the Right Hon. Lady Audley of a son
TC 14th Jan 1825 on the 11th inst in Cork Lady Audley of a son
TC 25 Feb 1825 on Tuesday 22inst. the infant boy of Lord Audley ( possibly the death of their son born 14th Jan)
TC 26th July 1825 at Desert church on Saturday 23rd inst by the Rev. James M'Cheane, Thomas Blair Patterson of Capinaweel Esq., in this Co. ( County) to Margaret Audley of Bantry.
Newspapers TC The Constitution (Cork)
CMI Cork Morning Intelligence ( published thrice weekly Tuesday, Thurs & Sat)
CMC you have already published thrice weekly Mon , Wed & Friday)
Mary
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Hi Mary,
Many thanks for your very interesting Message. To me your message raises several question which I hope you don't mind me asking.
In your message you tell me what the abbreviations are for the various newspapers you have quoted from but you appear to have missed SR from the list. Can you please advise what S R stands for?
With regard to the birth recorded in SR 13th November 1819 this would be the birth of John Nicholas Thicknesse-Touchet. By this time the surname of the family who held the title of Lord Audley was Thicknesse-Touchet. It was John Nicholas Thicknesse-Touchet's elder brother George Edward Thicknesse-Touchet (born 26th January 1817) who became the 21st Lord Audley.
With regard the birth recorded in CMI 27th November 1821 this would be the birth of William Ross Thicknesse-Touchet. The announcement says that the birth took place at his Lordship's house South Mall. Would you happen to know whether South Mall is in Cork? I would guess that they had houses in more than one location.
The birth and death in 1825 will be the announcement of the birth and death of James Thicknesse-Touchet.
The parents of the above three children were George Thicknesse-Touchet (20th Lord Audley) (1783 to 1837) and Anne Jane Donnelly (d 1855). They married in 1816 in Belgium.
The other two entries are the one's that really interest me.
Re the marriage that was recorded in CMC 16 June 1802 between Capt George Audley and Miss Blair of Bantry. I have managed to obtain a clip from the newspaper; but my clipping does not say that they were married at Christchurch on June 11th.
Where did you get this information about Christchurch from?
Where is Christchurch; is in Cork, Bantry or somewhere else?
Can you confirm that Miss Blair's christian name was Margaret from the information about the marriage?
I know that A George Audley, a gentleman and his wife Margaret late Blair baptised a son George Audley 1803 in Liverpool England and I believe that that the parents of this baptism are the two people recorded in CMC as marrying in 1802.
Do you know where there is a copy of the Christchurch Registers as this should confirm the brides Christian name as being Margaret?
With regard to the Marriage on Saturday 21st July 1825. I am assuming that the Margaret Audley who was married was a widow and is the Miss Blair who married Captan George Audley in 1802.
Where is Desert? The only place, that I can find with that name is North East of Cork in the Direction of the M8 and some 70 miles from Bantry! Is there another Desert nearer to Bantry?
Her husband is described as 'of Capinaweel'. I cannot find Capinaweel can you advise where it is or was?
If Margaret re-married in 1825 this raised the question what happened to her first husband Captain George Audley and her son George Audley. Can you make any suggestions?
Many thanks for you your help and please accept my apologies for the rather long reply
Regards
Brian Audley
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Earls of Castlehaven
George Touchet, 1st Earl of Castlehaven and Baron Audley of Orier, 11th Baron Audley of Heleigh, 8th Baron Touchet (1551–1617)
Mervyn Touchet, 2nd Earl of Castlehaven, 12th Baron Audley of Heleigh, 9th Baron Touchet (1593–1631) forfeit 1631, his English Barony of Audley of Heleigh, being descendible to heirs general was forfeited, but the Irish peerages were protected.
James Touchet, 3rd Earl of Castlehaven, 1st Baron Audley of Hely, 13th Baron Audley of Heleigh (c. 1617–1684) In 1678 he had the English Barony of Audley of Heleigh restored to him with remainder "to his heirs for ever".
Mervyn Touchet, 4th Earl of Castlehaven, 14th Baron Audley of Heleigh (d. 1686)
James Touchet, 5th Earl of Castlehaven, 15th Baron Audley of Heleigh (d. 1700)
James Touchet, 6th Earl of Castlehaven, 16th Baron Audley of Heleigh (d. 1740)
James Touchet, 7th Earl of Castlehaven, 17th Baron Audley of Heleigh (1723–1769)
John Touchet, 8th Earl of Castlehaven, 18th Baron Audley of Heleigh (1724–1777)
The Earldom of Castlehaven and Baronies of Audley of Hely and Audley of Orier became extinct and the Barony of Audley of Heleigh passed to his nephew and heir.
http://www.europeanheraldry.org/united-kingdom/families/families-s-z/house-touchet/
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Hi Hallmark,
Thanks for your last two messages.
I do have a copy of the relevant pages of G E C's ' Complete Peerage'
Can you please advise the source of the image that you attached to your second message as it states: 'I cannot pretend to have added much to it' ( i.e. to GEC's Complete Peerage) as I would like to investigate how much information your source has added to GEC's work.
Regards
Brian
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Over 5000 acres in county Cork, the propery of George Edward Thicknesse-Touchet, Barony Audley, was offered for sale in the Encumbered Estates Court in June 1852. The lands were located in the baronies of East and West Carbery. A further 1900 acres were offered for sale in November 1852. This latter sale notice includes a report by Mr. English on the Audley mines. Robert Nourragh was leasing some of this property in the parish of Ross, barony of East Carbery, at the time of Griffith's Valuation. A Landed Estates Court sale notice of November 1867 indicates that some 3000 acres of this estate had been purchased in 1852 by Thomas Saunders Cave, who was offering for sale in the 1867 notice.
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Memoirs and anecdotes of Philip Thicknesse, late lieutenant governor of Land Guard Fort, and unfortunately father to George Touchet, Baron Audley
by Thicknesse, Philip, 1719-1792
https://archive.org/details/memoirsanecdotes00thic/page/178
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Hi Hallmark,
Thanks for your last two messages.
Can you please advise the source of the image that you attached to your second message as it states: 'I cannot pretend to have added much to it' ( i.e. to GEC's Complete Peerage) as I would like to investigate how much information your source has added to GEC's work.
Regards
Brian
It seems to be notes
https://archive.org/details/audleyfamily00read/page/n9
about the Pedigree he did
https://archive.org/details/audleypedigreesc00read
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Hi Brian,
I will try and answer some of your questions -
S.R stands for Southern Reporter (Cork newspaper) first published twice weekly and later published thrice weekly.
I checked the entries on Rosemary Ffolliots newspaper extracts for "Blair" and there is a little extra information that confirms Margaret was the christian name of "Miss Blair" .
CMC (Cork Mercantile Chronicle) W (Wednesday) "last week Capt. George Audley to Miss Blair of Bantry.(MLB Margaret Blair. Married at Christchurch 11 Jne.) MLB = Marriage licence bonds.
I don't know if the Margaret Audley who married Thomas Blair Patteson on 23rd July 1825 was Capt. George Audley's widow. You could be correct in thinking that.
South Mall was a very upmarket area of Cork City in the 1800's. See photo -
http://www.corkpastandpresent.ie/mapsimages/corkphotographs/lawrencecollection/southmallfromparnellbridgehorse-drawntransport/
if you can't see it on the above link - just google it or go into www.corkpastandpresent.ie
Christchurch is on the South Main Street in Cork City - It is called Holy Trinity church but known as Christchurch. You asked me how I knew they married in Christchurch it says so in the newspaper extract.
The Church of Ireland site www.ireland.anglican.org did have some records on their site but not many. They are based in Dublin and hold most of the BMD records for the country however they don't do look ups. You would need to visit their library.
Registers held at the Church of Ireland Dublin -
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/about/rcb-library/list-of-parish-registers
I do have a book of Christchurch records for the years 1643-1669 which isn't any help to you.
Here is info on Cork Parish Registers ( Church of Ireland)
http://www.corkrecords.com/registers.htm
Desert is a civil parish in County Cork see link -
https://www.townlands.ie/cork/desert/
From the Landed Estates records details of Blairs of Blairs Cove here-
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie:8080/LandedEstates/jsp/estate-show.jsp?id=2490
I have tried to find "Capinaweel" I think it might be a mis spelling and it seems like an English spelling for an Irish townland or area. I tried the site www.loganim.ie and didn't come up with anything sorry.
I found some Blair entries that might interest you . I will send them on in a few minutes.
Mary.
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Cappanaboul ?? https://www.logainm.ie/8350.aspx
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https://www.logainm.ie/en/22411?s=Cappawee ?
Another suggestion.
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I don't have all the Blair entries from Rosemary Ffolliots newspaper extracts from the microfilm -
FDJ newspaper Faulkner's Dublin Journal during the 18th century published twice weekly on
Tuesdays and Saturdays
30 Dec 1818 In Cork Mr. R. Bagley of that City to Martha youngest dau of the late
R. Blair Esq, of Blair's Cove ( married at St. Finbarrs Dec 22)
Note * Blair's Cove is in Durrus which is quite near Bantry.
HC Hibernian Chronicle - 1 Feb 1790 - last Saturday at the parish church of Skull (Current spelling is Schull) in this Co. Richard Blair junr Esq of the Abbey near Bantry to Miss Elizabeth Lewis of Lowertown.
SR Southern Reporter - 3 Mar 1827 On Tuesday 1st at O'Donovan's Cove by the Rev. Alcock
and afterwards by the Rev. Richard Quinn P.P (Parish Priest R.C.)Richard Blair Esq of Blair's Cove in this co. to Catherine 3rd dau of the late Richard O'Donovan of Donovan's cove in the
co. Esq.
Note * Donovan's cove is at Kealties, Durrus, near Bantry.
CA -Cork Advertiser 11 Nov 1813 on Monday last at Douglas church ( this would be St. Lukes church of Ireland) by Rev. Mr. Busteed William Blair Esq. to the widow McMinn.
That's it,
Mary
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Well done Hallmark. I'd say you are right with that. Looks good location wise.
Mary
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Conachy your suggestion looks great too!!
Mary
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Looks like Cappanaboul could be right as there were Pattisons there.
Two good sites for West Cork history are the following -
http://www.westcorkgenealogy.com/ although I did check for Audley/Blair and neither there under West Cork families but it has lots of other useful information.
Also West Cork history and in particular Durrus.
www.durrushistory.com
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Hi,
Many thanks to all for all the additional information you have all provided it is going to take me a while to follow up all the links and add the new information to my master file.
My surname is Audley and my family moved in to Liverpool England around 1800 from Cheshire, England and as a result of that search I found the baptism in 1803 of George the son of George Audley and Margaret Audley formerly Blair.
The family of the Lord Audley (Formerly Earls of Castlehaven) is of secondary importance to me as by that time their surname was no longer Audley but Thicknesse-Touchet.
The person I am most interested in is Captain George Audley who married Margaret Blair in 1802. Could he in some way have been related to the Lord Audley family? I have some evidence from pre Castlehaven days that some of the children of Lord Audley used Audley as their surname rather than Touchet.
In his marriage George Audley is described as a Captain. Is there anyway to identify whether he was the Captain of a Ship, or a Captain in the Army?
Regards
Brian
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Hi All,
Many thanks to all who in the in the last week have replied to my message. I have now managed to copy all your new information into my master file.
Regards
Brian Audley
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That's great Brian thank you for letting us know. We appreciate that.
Mary
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In his marriage George Audley is described as a Captain. Is there anyway to identify whether he was the Captain of a Ship, or a Captain in the Army?
Regards
Brian
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Hi Chinapaddy,
Thanks for your message, as I live close to Chester I will see if the Record Office, has a copy of the article.
Regards
Brian
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Hi All,
Just a quick update. I have now managed to see a copy of the Newspaper identified by Chinapaddy. It would appear that George Audley was a member of the Cheshire Fencibles.
However the article does not give much more information.
I have alsi dscovered that the Muster Rolls for the Cheshire Fencibles 1974 to 1802 are in the National Archives in Kew London.
I think it will be next year before I manage to make the 500 mile round trip to the archives
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http://www.corkarchives.ie/
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There is a Topic about the Cheshire Fencibles here on rootschat from nine years ago. It also mentions George Audley.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=379120.0
2. You say you have not found any references to George Audley in the London Gazette. I manages to find 3 references to him as follows:
London Gazette Issue 13812 published 8th September 1795 page 4 of 20
London Gazette issue 15003 published 31st March 1789 page 2 of 8
London Gazette Issue 15197 published 22nd October 1799 page 9 of 16
I found him by searching the London Gazette website for the phrase "George Audley"
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https://durrushistory.com/tag/cheshire-fencibles/
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=657008.0
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Hi Chinapaddy and Hallmark,
Thanks for your most recent messages.
Hallmark - With regard to your links to the Cork Archives. Are you saying that there is something specific in the Cork Archives relevant to George Audley and/or the Cheshire Fencibles or are you just informing me of the Cork Archives website?
Chinapaddy - Thanks to the Rootschat message from 2009. I have now looked at the references in the London Gazette and they just record his rise through the ranks. If I can get to see the muster rolls in the Archives at Kew it will hopefully tell me where he was before joining the Cheshire Fencibles and where he went after they were disbanded.
Hallmark - Regarding your link to the durrush history website. I can see some information about the Cheshire Fencibles but could not find anything about George Audley. Have I missed something?
Hallmark - Thanks to the link to the Rootschat topic 657008.0. I must admit I had already found that thread and it was from that topic that I got the references for the Cheshire Fencibles at the National Archives in Kew.
Thanks to both for your help
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Hi Chinapaddy and Hallmark,
Thanks for your most recent messages.
Hallmark - With regard to your links to the Cork Archives. Are you saying that there is something specific in the Cork Archives relevant to George Audley and/or the Cheshire Fencibles or are you just informing me of the Cork Archives website?
Yes but there is a contact email address there for queries etc
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Hallmark,
Thanks for the Clarification, I now understand what you were telling me.
My current theory is that George Audley was baptised in 1776 in Nantwich, Cheshire. He joined the Cheshire Fencibles. The Cheshire Fencibles were posted to Bantry, where George Audley met a local girl, Margaret Blair, they married in Christchurch Cork in 1802. I believe that the Cheshire Fencibles were disbanded in either 1801 or 1802, hence they moved back to England (Liverpool), where their son (George) was baptised in 1803. For some reason George then joined the Royal Newfoundland Regt of Fencible Infantry and died 26th May 1806 at Fort Ann, Annapolis, Nova Scotia. In his will he leaves everything to his wife and child, but unfortunately his will does not give their names.
His wife Margaret then a widow moved back to Bantry (presumably to her parents) and remarried to Thomas Blair Patterson in 1825.
To me the above information hangs together well although still needs a bit of checking.
The key questions for me are:
What the Margaret Audley who married Thomas Blair Patterson in 1825, a widow and
What happened to the Son (George) of George Audley and Margaret Blair? Could he be the George Audley who married in 1826 to Sarah Robinson in Waterford?
I am slowly building a logical story.
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Sacred to the Memory of
Ensign George Audley of the Royal Newfoundland Regiment
Who died the 25th day of May, 1806 In the 30th year of his Age
This stone is placed by his Brother Officers
As a testimony of their friendship and esteem.
Are there more than one or two "George Audley's" around that time?
The one born in 1776 in Nantwich was George Penlington Audley
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Hallmark,
Thanks for the Clarification, I now understand what you were telling me.
My current theory is that George Audley was baptised in 1776 in Nantwich, Cheshire. He joined the Cheshire Fencibles. The Cheshire Fencibles were posted to Bantry, where George Audley met a local girl, Margaret Blair, they married in Christchurch Cork in 1802. I believe that the Cheshire Fencibles were disbanded in either 1801 or 1802, hence they moved back to England (Liverpool), where their son (George) was baptised in 1803. For some reason George then joined the Royal Newfoundland Regt of Fencible Infantry and died 26th May 1806 at Fort Ann, Annapolis, Nova Scotia. In his will he leaves everything to his wife and child, but unfortunately his will does not give their names.
His wife Margaret then a widow moved back to Bantry (presumably to her parents) and remarried to Thomas Blair Patterson in 1825.
To me the above information hangs together well although still needs a bit of checking.
The key questions for me are:
What the Margaret Audley who married Thomas Blair Patterson in 1825, a widow and
What happened to the Son (George) of George Audley and Margaret Blair? Could he be the George Audley who married in 1826 to Sarah Robinson in Waterford?
I am slowly building a logical story.
As you see when she marriied Thomas Blair Patterson of Fanlobbus (Dunmanway) Bantry in 1825 she is named as Mrs Margaret Audley so must be a Widow or she was a bigamist!!
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Hi Chinapaddy and Hallmark,
Thanks for both for your last replies.
Chinapaddy - The stone that was laid to the memory of George Audley that you refer to is definately the George Penlington Audley who was born in Nantwich, Cheshire in 1776. The reason I am so sure is that the Executor of his will was his sister who also had Penlington as a second forename. (Penlington being the maiden name of their mother) I think it is almost certain that that the George Audley who died in 1806 is the same George Audley who was in the Cheshire Fensibles and who married Margaret Blair. Hopefully The records of the Cheshire Fensible Regiment, will give documentary evidence of this. One thing I do not understand is why George Audley made his sister the executor of his will and not his wife.
Hallmark - The previous information that was given on 15th November by 'Celtic Liberty' from the Constitution Newspaper refers to the bride as Margaret Audley and gave no information as to her marital status. Thanks for confirming that at the time of Margaret Audley's marriage she is described as Mrs. Can you please advise the source of your information?
'Celtic Liberty' in her quote from the Constitution Newspaper has:
At Desert Church Thomas Blair Patterson of Capinaweel, in Cork county married Margaret Audley of Bantry and
you have told me that Thomas Blair Patterson of Fanlobus (Dunmanway) Bantry married Mrs Margaret Audley
Is Fanlobus (Dunmanway) Bantry the same place as Capinaweel?
From your source did the marriage take place at Desert church?
Regards
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Hi Chinapaddy and Hallmark,
Thanks for both for your last replies.
Hallmark - The previous information that was given on 15th November by 'Celtic Liberty' from the Constitution Newspaper refers to the bride as Margaret Audley and gave no information as to her marital status. Thanks for confirming that at the time of Margaret Audley's marriage she is described as Mrs. Can you please advise the source of your information?
'Celtic Liberty' in her quote from the Constitution Newspaper has:
At Desert Church Thomas Blair Patterson of Capinaweel, in Cork county married Margaret Audley of Bantry and
you have told me that Thomas Blair Patterson of Fanlobus (Dunmanway) Bantry married Mrs Margaret Audley
Is Fanlobus (Dunmanway) Bantry the same place as Capinaweel?
From your source did the marriage take place at Desert church?
Regards
It is on the Durrus link I posted
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The Link to
Some Church of Ireland and Methodist Marriages, Bantry, West Cork from 1610.
was posted in the March 2017 blog
https://durrushistory.com/2017/03/page/2/
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Hallmark,
Many thanks for the second link. Using the second link I managed to find the Document that contains the marriage
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Hi All,
Just a quick update as earlier in this thread we mentioned the 'Earls of Castlehaven'. I have just obtained a copy of a book published in 2018 titled 'The Earls of Castlehaven, Lords Audleys of Cork and Kildare, From the Battle of Kinsale to the Great Famine and beyond'. The Author is a Michael Christopher Keane, who appears to live near Cork.
This will be my Christmas reading; from a quick look at the book it apears a comprehensive history of the Earls and may be of interest to those of you who responded to my initial question with information about the Earls of Castlehaven.
Thanks for all you replies to my initial query.