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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: mackemyank on Saturday 22 September 18 14:09 BST (UK)
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Looking for some info on my mothers uncle. His name was William Burns and he was born in around 1902 in Bishop Auckland, England. His parents were William and Margaret and were living in Birtley in 1911. That’s where the speculation begins. Apparently, he moved in the United States sometime in the 1940’s and married an American. Her name unknown. He may have been a coal miner and he may have actually owned a coal mine? That’s all I know. Any info on whatever happened to him would be fascinating. Thank you in advance....
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William Burns,birth registered Auckland ,M 1/4 1902 mother Munlavy
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It may be useful (probably essential) to get his exact date of birth to assist in identification.
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Thanks for all the help and I just ordered his birth certificate which I should get in a few weeks and hopefully that will lead to some good info
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Thanks for all the help and I just ordered his birth certificate which I should get in a few weeks and hopefully that will lead to some good info
In case you are not aware you can order PDF copies of some birth and death certificates from the GRO and they only take a few days to arrive electronically. They are also cheaper £6.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
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That’s exactly what I did. Although I ordered a hard copy as I like to keep them. Thank you. I’m really intrigued on this one
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I just download them and print them that way I have them in two places :)
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Maybe I will in future. I have a few more to track down over the next few years. This one though is fascinating for me. He died in the USA apparently as he was never heard from again after the 1950’s. And I’m in the US now. And my great great grandmother ended up here too.
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William is on the 1911 census with his parents and five siblings living at 15 New Street Birtley R S O Durham, Birtley, Durham
Registration district Chester Le Street
Registration district number 554
Enumeration district 3
District number 3
Sub district Harraton
Sub district number 2
Census reference RG14PN30120 RG78PN1739 RD554 SD2 ED3 SN193
RG78 code number 1739
Piece number 30120
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I saw that earlier but thank you!! Just waiting on the DOB now and keeping my fingers crossed that will open a few doors 👍🏻
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Did you try to find William on the 1939 Register?
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No I didn’t. I do not believe he was living in the country at the time but I may have been mistaken?
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In your first post you state that:-
Apparently, he moved in the United States sometime in the 1940’s and married an American. Her name unknown.
You then say:-
He died in the USA apparently as he was never heard from again after the 1950’s.
So who heard from him in the 1950's and by what method?
If he didn't go to the US until the 1940's, then in theory he should be on the 1939. Where is he most likely to be living in 1939? Do you know what was his occupation?
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I said the 1940’s at a guess. It could have been earlier but my mother remembers him visiting from the USA in around the early 50’s with his American wife.
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William is on the 1911 census with his parents and five siblings living at 15 New Street Birtley R S O Durham, Birtley, Durham
William and Margaret Burns are still living at 15 New Street Birtley after the war, according to electoral registers.
Until Spring 1923 in fact.
Autumn 1923 sees a change.
Polling District C. Parish of Birtley.
Burns, Margaret (residence) E Sec. 22D
Burns, William E Sec. 22D
Burns, William (Junr.) E Sec. 22D
Just the one William Burns, plus Margaret, listed in Birtley in Spring 1924.
Doesn't mean that either William died then of course, but on FreeBMD there's only one William Burns death in Chester le Street district from 1911 until 1938 (when it was abolished)
March 1924 Chester le Street 10a 833
Burns, William
age 22
Looking around, William junior in Birtley does seem an obvious candidate?
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If the death that Jon has found is correct, then William never went to America or married at all.
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He's proved to be very elusive later hasn't he!
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William has four sisters and one brother called Thomas Harold born 1905 listed in the 1911 census.
Perhaps it was Thomas who went to America. ::)
Family stories quite often turn out to have no substance to them at all.
If it was me I would be getting the death certificate or pdf for that 1924 death to establish exactly who that William was.
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Whoever the chap was who died in 1924, I'm not sure where he was buried.
Birtley Cemetery opened in 1926.
The LDS have filmed the records, but the film with burials 1926-1992 has not yet been digitized. Had a bit of luck with the graves register though!
In section C, grave number 59
Margaret Burns, 22 April 1935
William Burns, 12 July 1938
Need to be logged in as a free member to see
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-C98G-K?i=168&cat=825026
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Death of Mr Burns
Sep 1938 Durham Northern 10a 450
Burns, William
age 63
Sadly no will, but there was an administration
William Burns
48 Lansbury Drive Birtley Durham
died 9 July 1938
Administration to Catherine Burns, spinster, and Ruby Jane Proudlock
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=burns&yearOfDeath=1938&page=2#calendar
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Admin has gone to the daughters then. Ruby must have married a Proudlock.
Sons wise if William is dead that just leaves Thomas.
Added: Mac, I would strongly recommend that you obtain the death cert for William in 1924 that Jon found. That will clear up exactly who he is. Hopefully one of his parents registered the death.
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All very fascinating. Thank you. I have ordered a birth certificate for William b 1902 so it couldn’t be Thomas? I have sent screenshots to my mother back in England and asked her to digest them and let me know what she thinks.
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It will be interesting to hear what she thinks.
But as I said in my earlier reply:-
I would strongly recommend that you obtain the death cert for William in 1924 that Jon found. That will clear up exactly who he is. Hopefully one of his parents registered the death.
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Surely it can’t be the same William in 1924. My mother is alive and remembers meeting her uncle. William Burns. Brother of her mother Margaret.
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Was this William who died in 1924 also showing as from the same family? If so, I’d better get that birth certificate. And my mother can hopefully get back to me with more info
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Was it William or did she meet Thomas, William's brother? How good is your mother's memory of events that took place fifty odd years ago?
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You won't know if that 1924 death is your William without getting the death cert.
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Just talked to my mother. Her mental capacity is good. She remembers meeting William in her childhood. Unsure when. But she also said that 5 brothers set sail for the US. 3 didn’t survive the trip. One died there and it only left William. This was apparently from my grandmother verbally a lot of years ago. She didn’t really talk much about it. She was close to her sister Ruby who I knew until I was 10. I wasn’t interested then but I do not recall meeting or hearing about any siblings or offspring.
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FIVE brothers! On the 1911 census there are only four daughters and two sons listed.
The original image states eight children born, six still living and two died.
Are we following the right William Burns???
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I’ve just looked at GRO, only daughters born between 1911 and 1917
MMN DUNLAVEY
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Yes. I only know the names of 3 sons. Edward the youngest? Born after my grandmother who was born in 1915. William b 1902. Thomas b 1905. The girls were Catherine b 1897. Elizabeth b 1899. Ruby b 1906 and my grandmother Margaret born September 19, 1915. I believe there were 11 siblings. Some didn’t survive birth? but names are lost to memory now.
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Hi
You've got William's birth certificate coming. See how you get on with that, with his date of birth. If that doesn't find him in the States (Social Security Death Index?), etc., you could then look at the whole thing again, including the possibility that he died young.
Good luck!
John
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Between 1911 and 1940 I can only come up with the two births below for the whole of England and Wales.
Births Jun 1913
Burns Ivy H Dunlavy Chester-le-S. 10a 1291
Births Dec 1915
Burns Margaret Dunlavy Chester-le-S 10a 1024
No boys at all.
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I appreciate all the help. Thank you. That birth certificate should make it to the states sometime in the next 2 weeks. It’s a start
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Hi
Any news on the certificate?
John
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There was an Edward Burns born in 1916 in Chester le Street district, but mmn was Burns pointing to an illegitimate birth. Possibly the son of one of William’s sisters.
Isobel
Edited - however that one seems to be in the 1939 register living with a Sarah Burns
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Have just found Edward born 1921 in Chester le Street mmn Donlavy.
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Hello
Just popping up to echo Jon at reply#34 and ask if you have any news regarding William's birth certificate. :)
I think we have gone past the two weeks in which you expected to receive it?
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FINALLY arrived today. 23/12/1901.
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I assume it says his parents are William and Margaret Burns nee Dunlavy?
Although you have his birth certificate it doesn't help with whether he went to the USA.
At Reply #14 Jon found this:-
Doesn't mean that either William died then of course, but on FreeBMD there's only one William Burns death in Chester le Street district from 1911 until 1938 (when it was abolished)
March 1924 Chester le Street 10a 833
Burns, William
age 22
Out of sheer curiosity I obtained a pdf for this death and it says the following:-
Where & when died:- Fourteenth January 1924 E.22.D Elisabethmills, Birtley R.D.
William Burns, male, age 22.
Profession:- Colliery Rolleyway man (below surface)
Cause of death:- TB and exhaustion
Informant:- William Burns, father, present at the death, E.22.D Elisabethmills, Birtley
As you can see the E 22 D corresponds with the electoral register info that Jon found.
Autumn 1923 sees a change.
Polling District C. Parish of Birtley.
Burns, Margaret (residence) E Sec. 22D
Burns, William E Sec. 22D
Burns, William (Junr.) E Sec. 22D
To my mind this would mean that whoever went to the USA it wasn't William.
In family history one has to accept the unexpected - his other brothers will need to be investigated to see where they went. Memory is a wonderful thing but it is not always reliable especially after a long period of time.
A small example from my family history - my mother always stated that her grandfather was one of twins. He wasn't and I have birth certificates to prove that. So her memory was at fault there.
You will need to find out if William's other brothers went to the USA and if any of them married there. :)
If you would like a copy of William's death certificate, send me a pm with your email address and I will send it to you.
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Wow. Well, that’s interesting and a little disappointing. I will take this up with my mother when I FaceTime her tomorrow night and see what she thinks? Who the hell visited my grandmother then from the USA?
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You are going to have to dig and delve and find out! ::)
Just going to send you the death cert via your email addy.
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I texted my mother and all she said was “who the hell used to come and visit? That leaves Thomas and Edward. I can only find 8 siblings including my grandmother but my mother thinks grandma was one of 11?? I’ll take stock today and look into the other two brothers tonight.
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Okay Mac, feel free to ask for help - lots of willing Rootschatters all happy to help a fellow researcher. ;D
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There appear to have been 11 children. They were-
Catherine 1896
Elizabeth Ellen 1898
Hilda Mary 1900 died 1900
William 1902
Thomas Harold 1904
Ruby Jane 1907
Eva Margaret 1910 died 1910
Ruth Annie 1911
Ivy Hannah 1913
Margaret 1915
Edward 1921
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Right, so if Mac's mum remembers an uncle and William has died that leaves Thomas or Edward. This is assuming that the uncle came from the Burns side of the family and not from a different line.
Mac - Is your mum certain that the uncle was a Burns member of the family and not from a different branch?
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In 1939 Edward Burns was living with his married sister Margaret Leask, so if he went to the USA it was after the 1939 register.
If I have found the correct Thomas he is living with his wife Eileen in Birmingham and this looks like his marriage:-
Marriages Jun 1939
Burns Thomas H Ireland Birmingham 6d 1673
Ireland Eileen M Burns Birmingham 6d 1673
To be absolutely certain the marriage cert. would need to be obtained.
Looks as though they may have had four children the last being born in 1958.
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If that is indeed Thomas, it leaves Edward. And info on “ted” is more common knowledge. Apparently, Edward married Millie or Millicent had 2 kids lived in Barley Mow Birtley died in 70s hit by train by suicide??
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Well there is a marriage of an Edward to a Millicent:-
Marriages Jun 1943
Burns Edward Chisholm Durham N. 10a 1273
Chisholm Millicent Burns Durham N. 10a 1273
There are two Burns/Chisholm births in the Durham North registration district.
As I said for Thomas, would need the marriage cert to verify if this is the correct Edward. I as understand from a previous post, father William probably died in 1938 so he should appear as deceased on the marriage cert.
I am beginning to wonder if your mother got muddled as to which side of the family had son(s) going to the USA.
There is this death for an Edward Burns
Deaths Sep 1982
BURNS EDWARD 24 JULY 1921 GATESHEAD 2 268
Same date of birth as the 1939 Register.
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Thank you to each and every one of you for the help but I feel I am done My curiousity is satisfied and it’s just a real shame that the fairy tale was more attractive than the reality.
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Always the way Mac. Fairy tales are so much more interesting than reality! ::) ;D