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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Louth => Topic started by: dannydo on Sunday 23 September 18 08:39 BST (UK)
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Hello again Everyone,
In response to a number of replies to my original post, which I greatly appreciate, I have made some changes to the original detail and wording, which I hope will clear up some of the confusion that I seem to have created with the initial draft - ("Not for the first time", I hear my wife saying).
However, in mitigation, when writing the original version of my post, I should explain that I was half a bottle of Champagne and one pint of beer into the day, by way of celebrating said wife's birthday.
Please note that details that I have confirmed that details I have provided for household that I have shortlisted as a possible match for my maternal grandmother, Mary Thresa Plunkett and great grandparents, John and Mary Plunkett were taken from the 1911 Irish census.
Oh yes, the years given in the subject have been corrected to now read "1900 or 1901", rather than the incorrect "1900 or 1902" typo given in the original.
Many thanks in advance to anyone who might be able to help me with researching my family history, in particular that of my grandmother who, a few weeks before my 3rd birthday in 1948, became my adoptive single-parent following the death of my mother, Mary Violet Skelly, nee Doyle.
Born out of wedlock on June 12th 1945, my birth certificate shows me as being named, Dennis Doyle, but for as long as I can remember I have always been , known as “Danny Doyle”.
My Grandmother, having been named at birth as, Mary Plunkett, took to prefixing her name at some time following her marriage to Thomas Patrick Doyle in 1922 in Birkenhead, with “Salome”. In fact, her death certificate in I994 records her name as, Salome Mary Doyle.
The fact that there was very little that I ever learned about the family’s history as I grew up makes the task of tracing my ancestry quite a challenge, particularly when it comes to establishing exactly when and where my grandmother was born.
Based on the details recorded in her marriage certificate, what I know with a reasonable degree of certainty is that my grandmother was 21 years old when she got married in Birkenhead, Cheshire to my grandfather, Thomas Patrick Doyle, on the 23rd September 1922.
It also interesting to note that my grandmother’s first names are shown as Mary Violet on the marriage certificate.
My grandfather’s age is also given as 21, with occupation being “Letter Carrier G.P.O” on the marriage certificate. The certificate also shows that my paternal great grandfather was shown as, Thomas Doyle, occupation “Cycle Agent”, with my maternal great grandfather being named as, John Plunkett (deceased), occupation “Farmer”.
The other facts that I can be certain of is that my maternal grandmother, Mary (?Violet?) Doyle nee Plunkett gave birth to at least 3 children, the first being my mother, Violet Mary Doyle who was born in Birkenhead on July 10th 1923; my aunt, Veronica Mary Doyle born in 1927 in Drogheda Ireland, and my uncle, Oliver G. Doyle born in in 1930 also in Drogheda, but who died before his third birthday in Drogheda 1933.
Based on my firm belief that my grandmother was born in Ireland either in 1900 or 1901, from the details presented above, I attempted to find out where she might have been born. My research has narrowed down likely locations to one household in particular, details of which, taken from the April 1911 Irish census are as follows:
Name Relation Age Comment
John Plunkett Head of Family 40 Married 13 years. (My great grandfather?)
Mary Plunkett Wife 31 Nee McGuiness. (My great grandmother?)
Oliver Plunkett Son 12
Mary Thresa Plunkett Daughter 10 Thresa or Theresa?
(Salome Mary Doyle? my grandmother?)
Lizzie Plunkett Daughter 8 Lizzie or Elizabeth?
Maggie Plunkett Daughter 6 Maggie or Margaret
John Plunkett Son 4
Katherina Plunkett Daughter 11 months
It really would be of great help to hear from anyone who can trace their ancestry to, or knows anything about, the above household in order to establish whether or not the Mary Thresa Plunkett named was indeed my grandmother. Of course, it would be equally helpful to know more about my grandfather and great grandfather on the Doyle side of the family.
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I went looking for family on Census.... don't see them!
These are for children up to 10.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrl/
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I did this search.....no Oliver
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So they were in Dublin!!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Hope_Street/45692/
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Hello Danny and welcome to Rootschat
Is this grandmother’s death?
Salome Mary Doyle 1994 Croydon - birthdate 6th April 1900
Birthdates on death certificates can be wrong as it depends on the informant’s kknowledge and birth dates can be wrong because the person themselves is not sure or alters it.
Have you looked at Irish Genealogy for a likely person?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrm/
Where was your grandmother living in 1939?
Heywood
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You can try searching for any of those children marrying when they were approx 20/25
Just go to https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/civil-search.jsp and put in Name and relevant year ranges
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So they were in Dublin!!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Hope_Street/45692/
1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/South_Dock/Queen_Square/1349788/
John is a Steamer Master in 1901 and a Labourer in 1911
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Where was Thomas Patrick Doyle her husband born?
Why did they move to Drogheda? Did one or both come from that area?
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There's at least one Ancestry online tree which shows Thomas Patrick Doyle, children & wife along with her Plunkett family which indicates the Doyles and Plunketts both originated in County Cavan. However, many of the details don't add u to original post. For example- children include Veronica Mary (d.2005 & her family listed) & Oliver G. but there's a younger girl and 2 younger boys with no mention of Violet.
It might be that someone has attached the wrong records to their tree :-\
I did find this in the LDS indexes (too recent for Irish Genealogy certificates)-
Veronica Mary Doyle born 1927 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F1S5-8YW
Oliver G. Doyle born 1930 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F13T-KPP
Oliver Doyle died 1933 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FTVY-VJ7
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I'm confused by those children's surnames, shouldn't it be Doyle not Plunkett?
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Glad you noticed the mistake- have now fixed the names :-[
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Mary Violet Plunkett married Thomas Patrick Doyle 1922 Birkenhead
I am just noting this because I too was confused a bit with the information given.
So, Mary V is the lady who becomes Salome Mary, is that correct?
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Think it's Mary Violet Doyle born 1923 married Skelly died young
Her mother Mary Plunkett married Thomas Patrick Doyle 1922, she used Salome. I think.
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Think it's Mary Violet Doyle born 1923 married Skelly died young
Her mother Mary Plunkett married Thomas Patrick Doyle 1922, she used Salome. I think.
That’s what I mean - confusing
Mary Violet Plunkett married Thomas Doyle 1922 - Cheshire BMD
Daughter Violet Mary b 1923 married Mr Skelly. (Birth Cheshire BMD)
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Think it's Mary Violet Doyle born 1923 married Skelly died young
Her mother Mary Plunkett married Thomas Patrick Doyle 1922, she used Salome. I think.
That’s what I mean - confusing
Mary Violet Plunkett married Thomas Doyle 1922 - Cheshire BMD
Daughter Violet Mary b 1923 married Mr Skelly. (Birth Cheshire BMD)
I had the daughter's name backwards Violet Mary Doyle married Skelly.
I don't see any Violet in the mother/grandmother's name, just Mary Plunkett/Doyle and Salome Mary.
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It is the marriage which has her as Mary Violet.
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
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It is the marriage which has her as Mary Violet.
http://www.cheshirebmd.org.uk/marriagesearch.php
Ah I see, so the Mary Treasa of the 1911 census is unlikely to be her plus the father isn't a farmer.
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It seems doubtful - I don’t know.
There is a birth here - Mary 1900 - mother Sarah
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1900/01987/1765007.pdf
I can’t see them in censuses but maybe still in Workhouse?
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https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/08/shillelagh-workhouse-registers-online.html
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Violet may have been an acquired name like Salome though.
Hallmark,
Thanks for the Workhouse records. I tried but can’t see anything yet- not sure though how it works. :-\
Heywood
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I think the church record of the 1922 marriage is needed, which hopefully would have her mother's name and or an address for her father, and Thomas Patrick's.
Don't know how you would get it!
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I think the marriage details are already known. Not sure if the church records would show mother’s name - I think that varies according to the priest but may be there and worth contacting the parish perhaps.
Based on the details recorded in her marriage certificate, what I know with a reasonable degree of certainty is that my grandmother was 21 years old when she got married in Birkenhead, Cheshire to my grandfather, Thomas Patrick Doyle, on the 23rd September 1922. My grandfather’s age is also given as 21, with occupation being “Letter Carrier G.P.O” on the marriage certificate. The certificate also shows that my paternal great grandfather was shown as, Thomas Doyle, occupation “Cycle Agent”, with my maternal great grandfather being named as, John Plunkett (deceased), occupation “Farmer”.
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Hi Everyone,
Based on the details recorded in her marriage certificate, what I know with a reasonable degree of certainty is that my grandmother was 21 years old when she got married in Birkenhead, Cheshire to my grandfather, Thomas Patrick Doyle, on the 23rd September 1922. My grandfather’s age is also given as 21, with occupation being “Letter Carrier G.P.O” on the marriage certificate. The certificate also shows that my paternal great grandfather was shown as, Thomas Doyle, occupation “Cycle Agent”, with my maternal great grandfather being named as, John Plunkett (deceased), occupation “Farmer”.
JOHN PLUNKETTS FARMERS 1911 CENSUS http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrn/
JOHN PLUNKETTS FARMERS 1901 CENSUS http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mro/
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So they were in Dublin!!
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Pembroke_West/Hope_Street/45692/
1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/South_Dock/Queen_Square/1349788/
John is a Steamer Master in 1901 and a Labourer in 1911
Obviously not correct family!!
What the poster needs to do is search for John who was a farmer, of relevant ages on Census (Links posted) with a daughter Mary of approximate age rather than posting a family that isn't them!
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The published tree which seems to be based around the daughter Veronica Mary b 1927 shows the mother Mary Plunkett in this family
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrp/
She is 16 yrs in 1911 - so a different age in comparison to death.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrp/
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The published tree which seems to be based around the daughter Veronica Mary b 1927 shows the mother Mary Plunkett in this family
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrp/
She is 16 yrs in 1911 - so a different age in comparison to death.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrp/
I don’t think it is this Mary either as she looks to marry Peter Dowd in 1919
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1919/09696/5516879.pdf
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Possible leads here (although extracts seem a bit mixed up full articles may explain more)-
Drogheda Argus and Leinster Journal, 6 July 1929: DROGHEDA DISTRICT COURT ... At that time the Board of Health were keeping his family in Drogheda. He found out ... Inspector of the night he came to Drogheda. He had National Society for the Prevention heard that there was something of Cruelty to Children, prosecuted against him and he was coming up Thomas P. Doyle, Mull, Drogheda Laurence Street to Inspector M_ ...
Drogheda Argus and Leinster Journal, 15 Nov.1930: ... SENTENCED. At Slane District Court a man named Thomas P. Doyle, Hell, Drogheda, was charged (with having deserted his wife and four young children. He was arrested in London. In the course of her evidence the defendant...
Weekly Irish Times (Dublin), 22 Nov.1930:
At _ Sessions man named Thomas P. Doyle, Mell, Drogheda, was charged with having deserted his wife and four young children. In reply District Justice Goff, the prisoner ...
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Yes I saw one of those aghadowey.
The tree you mentioned earlier has children born later in Granard :-\
Perhaps inserted because of the Doyle/Plunkett name or they are known to the family.
London area does also seem to be relevant.
Maybe wait now for Danny to come back to us, perhaps.
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The 3 newspaper articles do seem to be the correct family and in view of the unfortunate circumstances it may be that any family stories could be incorrect or misleading.
More bits from the Drogheda Argus and Leinster Journal article on 6 July 1929-
… He found out that on the 14th May the defendant was working under the name of James Ryan on the Shannon Scheme. It was then that the wife could not …
… to give the children to another party and that she was going to work. He (the Inspector) found out that that party was not a suitable person for the control of the children. He then went and got Home Help relief for the wife and children and tried to find her husband. The Defendant went into the witness box and stated that after getting married to his wife at Cheshire he had tried to get work. When he came back...
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The published tree which seems to be based around the daughter Veronica Mary b 1927 shows the mother Mary Plunkett in this family
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrp/
She is 16 yrs in 1911 - so a different age in comparison to death.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mrp/
This family?
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Cavan/Larah_South/Cormeen_Glebe/345769/
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In case people don't notice Dannydo has edited his first post to clear up some of the confusion.
Danny can you go through the thread and try to answer any questions not covered by you first post, please.
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In case people don't notice Dannydo has edited his first post to clear up some of the confusion.
Danny can you go through the thread and try to answer any questions not covered by you first post, please.
Makes a bit of a farce of the replies!!
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Thanks to Sinann for pointing out the alteration to original post which we could easily have missed.
I feel that the 1911 family of Plunketts with daughter Mary Thresa is not the correct family (have another read through the posts, Danny). Also, the online tree seems to be a shambles.
Going forward more documentation is needed as it's very easy to follow the wrong person/family. The 1939 register for England (we aren't allowed to do lookups for it on Rootschat, Danny) may provide more accurate dates of birth for Thomas Patrick Doyle and his wife. Also, if in England the 1911 census may help (another resource for England that we can't help with).
Danny- once you've made 2 posts you should be able to use the PM (Personal Message) system which might help as some of these family details, especially recent ones, may be of a rather sensitive nature. The 1929/1930 newspaper articles are only the tip of the iceberg I fear.
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Thanks to Sinann for pointing out the alteration to original post which we could easily have missed.
I feel that the 1911 family of Plunketts with daughter Mary Thresa is not the correct family (have another read through the posts, Danny). Also, the online tree seems to be a shambles.
Going forward more documentation is needed as it's very easy to follow the wrong person/family. The 1939 register for England (we aren't allowed to do lookups for it on Rootschat, Danny) may provide more accurate dates of birth for Thomas Patrick Doyle and his wife. Also, if in England the 1911 census may help (another resource for England that we can't help with).
Danny- once you've made 2 posts you should be able to use the PM (Personal Message) system which might help as some of these family details, especially recent ones, may be of a rather sensitive nature. The 1929/1930 newspaper articles are only the tip of the iceberg I fear.
That is my thinking too as they don't see to be descended from farmers....as stated in Original Post!!
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OP is going by the marriage certificate which says John Plunkett was a farmer-
My grandfather’s age is also given as 21, with occupation being “Letter Carrier G.P.O” on the marriage certificate. The certificate also shows that my paternal great grandfather was shown as, Thomas Doyle, occupation “Cycle Agent”, with my maternal great grandfather being named as, John Plunkett (deceased), occupation “Farmer”.
At this point I can't see any reason to think that John Plunkett is not a farmer but much still needs to be found. The OP is giving us as much detail as possible so perhaps give them a chance to digest everything and respond.
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These seem to stem from the ones posted in original message that were not farmers ( if my following of thread is correct!! )
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Hello and thank you to all who have responded to my post.
This is my first attempt to reply to some of the questions raised, so hopefully this will shed a liitle more light.
Starting with my mother, Violet Mary Skelly, (nee Doyle). My mother was born Birkenhead on 10th July 10, 1923 and in London in on May 8th, 1948 of pulmonary tuberculosis. From her marriage to Dennis Victor Skelly in 1946, she bore my half-brother Gerald, (Gerry) who was born 1940's. Gerry is just 3 days short of being two years younger than I, my birthday being 1940's.
As mention in the my original and revised post after my mother died, my Nan adopted me in 1948, by which time she was calling herself Salome Mary, but I recall was also known as "Pat".
Nan died in an old folk's home in Croydon in 1994. As someone has also pointed out, details on death certificates may not be exact, so I would be willing to accept that Nan's age may not have been recorded accurately, particularly in view of the fact that she could be prone to embellising to truth at times, for example, by claiming that she was born on St Patrick's day, at least to extent that that was the day she celebrated her birthday!
Moving on to my Uncle Oliver, who was born in 1930 and died of Scarlet Fever in Drogheda in 1933, there is little more that I can add, other than being certain that he was for sure my grandmother's son.
I did after many years of lost contact manage to trace my mother's sister, i.e. my aunt who was again born in Drogheda in 1927 and named Veronica Mary Doyle. Sadly, I only had one brief opportunity to meet up with my aunt before she died in 2005/2006. A few more meetings would with her would have filled in the huge gaps in what I know about my ancestry.
There was also a query raised as to where my grandmother was in 1939, which of course was the year in which the 1939 Register was compiled shortly after the outbreak of World War II. Although I grew up with the understanding that she spent the war years in London, I guess I would need to conduct some research of the register in order to see if I could trace the household(s) where my Nan, Mother and aunt Veronica (who I always knew as Auntie Joyce - I know, don't ask!) might have lived.
From the newspaper items in some of the resplies to my post, it does seem that there could be some serious shortcomings in my grandfathers's abilities as a grandparent, but not having lived through those times I would not wish to be too hasty to judge.
For the moment, I'm just keen to get on record some facts about the characters that went into making me, and in turn my children and grandchildren, for whom, by the way, there has been no reason for me to appear the dock.
Right, I think that's it for now. If, I have left any of the queries unanswered, then do please get back. I've penned this rather hasty response just to acknowledge as quickly as possible and let you know how much I appreciate your interest and efforts in helping me.
P.S. Just noted that while writing a few more posts came through, so was advised to read through before sending this off, which I have done. I will take on board advice to read and digest all posts in order to provide a more structured picture. I also appreciate advice regarding potential sensitivity of what might emerge from my research.
Before signing off, there was one other household that looked promising in terms of my grandmother's parentage, which was in Claremorris, County Mayo. That would have still left my great grandfather being a farmer by the name of John Plunkett who married Marget Jordan (?Margret?) on 25th February 1894. The issue with that match, is that Mayo is far away from Louth or Meath, which has left me focusing on a place closer to east coast of Ireland rather than the west.
But, now I fear at muddying the waters even further. And there was me thinking that astro-physics, cosmology, and dark-matter were easy to research.
Best regards,
Danny
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From jbhall Gravestone inscriptions
Copyright image removed
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Saw the above image before it was removed but it wasn't as inclusive as this online list-
http://www.jbhall.freeservers.com/dore_-_finigan.htm
Still following up a few leads...
Wonder if Oliver George Doyle is Oliver G. 1930-1933
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Wee Oliver died 9 Jan.1933 of scarlet fever in hospital but home address was Mell which fits with the newspaper articles posted earlier-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1933/04866/4315685.pdf