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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Timbottawa on Tuesday 25 September 18 07:42 BST (UK)
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Emma Deighton, probably born 1Q 1843, St. Saviour 4/501. This lady is driving me nuts! Any advice welcome.
My first contact with her is the 1871 census, where she appears as Emma Butler, a 25-year-old professional actress, HoH, born in Blackfriars, with a 2-year-old daughter, Ellen Butler, born Liverpool. They are resident in Finsbury (St. James Clerkenwell).
Why Butler? A birth certificate for Henry William Butler in December 1871 lists the mother as Emma, formerly Deighton, a professional actress. The father is listed as Henry Thomas Butler, actor. The birth is registered in St. Giles, next door to Finsbury.
Moving forwards, in 1881 Emma (37-years-old, HoH, born Southwark), now a dressmaker, Ellen and Henry William are living in Lambeth, together with 1-year-old Charles E. Butler, born Newington. By 1891, they are living in Camberwell, Ellen appears to have left home, and Emma is calling herself a widow.
Moving backwards from 1871, there is a 17-year-old (HoH, born Blackfriars) Emma Deighton living in Blackfriars with a 23-year-old sister, Ellen. The fact that the younger sister is HoH suggests that Ellen may have suffered from a disability.
But ... I cannot find any record on FreeBMD of a Deighton-Butler marriage. Also, the only Ellen Butler born in or near Liverpool around 1869 (3Q 1868, Prescott 8b/544) is not the correct one (mother was Bridget, formerly Hanley).
So, in summary, we have Emma Deighton calling herself "Butler" from the late 1860's, but apparently not married to someone called Butler, nor co-habiting on census night with an adult male Butler in 1871 or 1881. So was the father of Ellen, born about 1869, really a Butler, or did Emma apply the surname later? Why was Charles E, born about 1880, also called Butler, when there had never been an adult male in the family on census night since 1851, and the father of Henry William had long since moved on?
I say this, because I am very certain (without being able to prove it) that Henry Thomas Butler, father of Henry William, was also father of Henry Thomas Butler, born Sept. 1871 (3 months before Henry William) to Margaret McHale, who was a 22-year-old professional actress, calling herself "Butler" in the 1871 census, but with no male adult Butler present, and for whom there is no record of a McHale-Butler marriage! But Margaret and Henry Thomas certainly spent the next 28 years together, so Henry Thomas (the elder) would have had to be very devious to have sired Charles E in Newington in 1880, when he was resident in Hull.
Complicated - but I would welcome any ideas!
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Marriage
All SOuls Newington
13th April 1890
Frederick Thomas Hunt 24 Tram driver, bach, 1 Grosvenor Place, father John Hunt, painter
to
Ellen Butler 21 Spinster , 1 Grosvenor Place, father Henry Butler deceased actor
witnesses Henry Butler and Elizabeth Sarah Hopkins
So Ellen either believed her father to be Henry, or had been told that, or indeed that was the case.
He wouldn't be the first to have two families on the go at once! Looks like he and Emma never actually married.
Remember the census is only a snapshot of one particular night. If Henry came and went, then highly possible he wasn't there on census night.
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Thanks Liz, that’s very interesting. My Henry Thomas Butler is a real mystery - no birth certificate, no census appearance before 1881 ...
So Ellen thinks her father was Henry and she was born in Liverpool around 1868-9 (even though I can’t find a reference). A new line of enquirer since Henry always claimed to have been born in London.
I have researched actors in the period 1868-1900 extensively. There is a Dale Butler active in this period, and an E. Butler, but I have not found a 2nd Henry.
Noted that he was not with Emma on census night, 1871. Nor was he with 3-months pregnant Margaret!
Cheers
Tim
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Long shot but one to check out
Ellen Hunt nee Butler in 1891 has birthplace Kennington London and is 24 born c1867
There is a birth for Emma Deighton Mar 1866 Pancras no mothers maiden name - might that be her :-\
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I have researched actors in the period 1868-1900 extensively. There is a Dale Butler active in this period, and an E. Butler, but I have not found a 2nd Henry.
Have you seen the mentions of Mr H T Butler in The Era and The Stage?
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Thanks Emma ... a birthplace in London makes more sense, but why would Emma record Ellen’s birth as Liverpool in both 1871 and 1881?
Shaun ... yes, I’ve noted all the references to H.T. Butler. But he also sometimes called himself H.J. Butler and even W.H. Butler. That’s a major part of the problem - I cannot be 100% sure that Henry Thomas Butler was his real name. He seems to revert to Henry Thomas for official documents, like children’s birth (and death) certificates - but was it his name at birth?
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The Henry Butler in 1881 is an "Artist (Pictures)", which to me implies he was an artist who painted pictures, as opposed to did sculptures or any other form if art. That is very different from an actor.
Are we sure this is the same Henry Butler that Emma in London is naming as her children's father?
1881
19 South PArade, Kingston Upon Hull
Henry Butler 35 married Artist (pictures) bn London
Margaret 30 wife bn London
Henry 10 bn London
Hubert 7 bn Lincolnshire
Edith 5 bn Yorkshire Scarborough
Florence 3 bn Northumbrland South Shields
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OK,I see in 1891 he is an Actor
1891
Theatre, Albion Street, Castleford, Yorkshire
Henry J Butler 48 married Actor bn Chelsea
Margaret 41 wife Actor bn Westminster
Henry 19 Actor bn Westminster
Herbert 16 Actor bn Southport Lancs
Edith 14 bn Scarborough Yorks
Florence 11 bn Cumberland South Shields
Reginald 6 bn Hull
Gertrude 6 bn Liverpool
Nita 5 bn Newcastle upon Tyne
Beatrice 2 bn Newcastle U T
Maud 0 bn Scarborough Yorks
He obviously moves around the country constantly to various theatres, so could easily pop in and visit Emma on occasions!
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Hi Liz,
Henry was an actor but also, on occasion, a stage manager and a theatre manager (in Castleford).
He was also an artist. A cousin claims to have a couple of landscapes by him in her attic, though I’ve never seen them.
So I think that whenever he was short of theatrical work he filled in with art, and probably recorded his profession according to the current trend.
From newspaper articles and playbills in city libraries I have well over 120 performances involving him and or his “wife”, Margaret, stage name Bella Tremayne.
They did indeed move around, but the northeast was their normal home, Newcastle, Hull, and especially Scarborough.
I actually envisage that Margaret forced the move from London to the provinces in about 1872 to make sure he was kept apart from Emma!
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Sorry ... to reply to your central question ... am I sure he was the same Henry Thomas Butler who fathered Henry William by Emma?
Well, no, I cannot prove it, but I have not found a 2nd Henry Thomas Butler, actor, in London in 1870-1 with a propensity for getting young aspiring actresses pregnant and inducing them to take his surname without marrying them :)
As I said, I cannot be absolutely certain (short of tracing Henry Williams’ descendants and going the DNA route), but it seems compelling to me
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The question was posed when I was thinking there was an actor Henry and an artist Henry - but then I went on to find they were the same person.
Yes - I agree with you, it looks very much like he had a couple (maybe more!) of ladies he had children with, with them taking his name but not marrying them.
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Glad we share the same interpretation :)
But my main interest remains distressingly obscure ... who on earth was Henry?
No certainty on his name; his census returns from 1881, 1891 and 1901 (he died 1909) imply different birth dates from 1842-1846. No presence in the 1851, 1861, or 1871 censuses. No marriage certificate(s) to provide a father’s name ...
Arghhh!!!
I would even be satisfied with a photo. As an actor, he must have used hundreds but none have come down through the family!
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Bit about the Theatre Royal in Scarborough here, though Henry not in the cast for the play they show the poster for!
http://www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/Scarborough.htm#royal
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Emma Deighton, probably born 1Q 1843, St. Saviour 4/501.
Mother's maiden name is Murrell on this one.
Have you seen the Emma Deighton baptised at St Martin-in-the-Fields in 1850, birthdate 29 June 1843, parents William James Deighton, a surgeon, and Mary. Their address at the date of this baptism was George St, Blackfriars Road.
Mary Deighton may have died Sep qtr 1849 St Saviour aged 49.
1851: Still at George St, Blackfriars Rd, but William has remarried to an Eliza Ann Tonks in 1850. There is a daughter Ellen Deighton in the family, b abt 1837 Blackfriars. No Emma, who may be with relatives. HO107/1557/329/73.
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Emma's birthdate must be wrong on the 1850 baptism if she was registered in the Mar qtr of 1843. Perhaps Emma was born 29 Jan rather than 29 June and the vicar wrote it down wrongly.
Other children in the family also have mmn Murrell, e.g. Edward Charles Deighton, Mar qtr 1845 St Saviour.
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"Ellen" perhaps = Helen Deighton Deighton, mmn Murrell, Sep qtr 1837 St Saviour.
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I am a bit confused now
Are there two families - Deighton/Murrell and Deighton/Black?
The family of the surgeon seem to be Deighton/Murrell and the correct one. Is that right?
Ignore this. I was sure you had William married to Mary Black :-\
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Yes after getting a bit confused myself I think there is only one family. But is the 1821 Deighton-Black marriage right? Perhaps Mary had had a youthful marriage before. The marriage register doesn't specify her prior marital status.
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Here they are in 1841 /1083/10/13
Same address as later censuses.
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First baptism I can see is of Matilda in 1823 Shoreditch - parents William James Deighton (surgeon) and Mary, of Church St.
Was there more than one wife named Mary?
Where was Ellen/Helen in 1841 ???
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Where was Ellen/Helen in 1841 ???
Found as Ellen Deighton, 4, with Murrell grandparents (likely) - William (a j. sawyer) and Ann, both 60, in Kennington.
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Thanks, avm and heywood, for your sleuthing.
From what source are you getting mmn's?
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Mmns are from GRO Online.
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Really? I thought they were only included later!
Thanks
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They're now indexed on GRO Online from 1837 - as are ages at death. Both hugely helpful developments :)
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Oh yes! I’d taken a couple of years off from active research, so need to catch up on these developments :)
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So now I'm intrigued by Ellen Butler, 2-years old in 1871, living with her mother, Emma (Deighton).
Supposedly born in Liverpool, but (unless I'm struggling to use the source correctly) there is no female Butler born to a mother with the maiden name Deighton anywhere in England or Wales from 1865-1871.
So what is going on? Was she born to a different father and therefore registered by a different surname, only for Emma to change the name to Butler when she took-up with Henry Thomas?
The likely marriage certificate unearthed by lizdb suggests that Ellen thought she had been born a Butler
Thanks for any advice
Tim
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It's not Liverpool but can you rule out the Ellen Deighton birth suggested earlier? (reply #3)
If mum was unmarried it makes sense she was registered under mums name only.
Only the birth will confirm if Emma was her mother so if you can rule her out by other means all well and good!
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Thanks Millipede,
In reply 3 you referred to an Emma birth, whereas we’re interested in an Ellen birth. I didn’t check - were you mixing up the ladies’ names?
If it was in fact Ellen, then I might take a punt on ordering it
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The 1866 child is in fact Ellen, not Emma, but she’s not yours. Born 13 Jan 1866 to Robert Deighton and Hannah, baptised Shoreditch 1868, by 1871 Hannah has remarried to a John Barlow Hudswell and Ellen Deighton, 5 b St Pancras, is in their household as John’s “daur-in-law” (stepdaughter).
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Thanks avm
So the mystery remains. Ellen, apparently Butler, born about 1868-9 (1871 and 1881 censuses give consistent ages of 2 and 12) but supposedly in Liverpool ... but no Butler or Deighton birth in Liverpool at that time, not even in London ...
Hmm! What’s the solution?
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Probably that her birth was not registered, unfortunately.
Have you tried variants - Helen rather than Ellen, phonetic spellings of Deighton, etc?
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Do you know when Ellen died? If she lived to 1939 then you could get her exact birthdate from the 1939 Register, but on a quick look I couldn’t see her past 1891 census & possible twins born 1892.
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Thanks avm
I quickly tried variants without success but probably need to invest more time in that.
I suspect her father was not Henry Butler and she was registered under the surname of her real father (as understood by her mother!). But that then, when her mother took up with Henry Butler, her mother changed all their names and never revealed the truth to Ellen.
Makes ng it almost impossible to find her birth (unless, as you say, she survived to 1939)
Cheers
Tim
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Hi I am new to this site and have just seen your chats. Emma Deighton also known as Butler was my husband’ s G.G Grandma. I have the baptism of her daughter Ellen Deighton on 22 Aug 1873 in Southwark. Emma states herself as being a single woman (census shows Ellen born 1869 in Liverpool). Prior to this baptism I have the baptism of her son Henry William Deighton on 6 August 1873 in Southwark and Emma again states that she is a single woman But I have Henry’ birth cert stating he was born 29 December 1871 and registered on 1 March 1872. He is names Henry William Butler born 17 Little Queen St. his father Henry zthomas Butler an Actor. Emma’s is shown as Emma Butler formerly Deighton. So by Aug 1873 Emma is saying she is a single woman when she has her two children baptised. Emma on these baptisms is living at 25 Royal Terrace and when her third child Charles Edward is born on 8 March 1880 she is living next door at no.24. On the birth certificate of Charles she states the father as Henry zbutler a Law Writer and herself as Emma Butler formerly Deighton. Interesting is the informant Annn ? Chapman. On the baptism of Charles Edward Butler dated 5 Dec 1884 she is named as Emma Butler and the father as Henry Thomas Butler a Traveller. They are living at 31 Farmen? Road. So although I cannot find any marriage lines I think they must have been married by 1884 as Emma seems unable to lie where the church is involved. Hope to hear what you think.
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Hi Jan ... and welcome to RootsChat ... it is a very powerful tool for your family history research, as you have already seen!
Your information is very interesting. Today I am busy at work, but perhaps this evening I will try to compile all the information we have on Emma, to see where we stand.
But, your husband being (possibly) a g-g-grandson of Henry Thomas Butler, actor, and me also being a g-g-grandson, I believe that a simple DNA test would clearly establish whether the Henry Thomas Butlers are, in fact, one-and-the-same. Would your husband be willing?
Cheers, Tim
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Hi Tim, my husband is not overly interested in ancestry research - I am the researcher having researched both mine and hubby’s families. My husband G Grandmother was Ellen the daughter of Emma Butler nee Deighton and I have no information to say that Henry Thomas Butler was her father but as I said the two boys have documents at least mentioning Henry Thomas Butler as the father. Who is your G Grandparent? Have you taken the DNA and if so did it reveal Emma and Henry Thomas as your G.G. grandparents? Also what Company did you use for the test.
Look forward to hearing from you when you have some free time. I will try and talk hubby into having the test.
Great to be in touch. Jan
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Hi Jan,
I've not yet done any DNA testing, because I have not had any need to do so. Now things may be different. As you probably know, the process is very simple - you swab the inside of your cheek and send it off!
But is it worth it in this case? Since your husband is a descendant of Ellen, we have to ask if Henry Thomas Butler was her father, or not. We are missing her birth certificate, and without it we have no information on her father, other than her marriage certificate, which is of questionable accuracy. If she was really born in Liverpool, I don't think HT could have been her father, as I have no information showing an association with Liverpool before 1875. But I note that in the 1891 census, Ellen (now Hunt) records her birthplace as Kennington.
I DO think that HT was the father of Henry William - everything seems to match up, and lacking any other Henry Thomas Butler actors at the time in London, the evidence seems compelling.
I suspect HT was not the father of Charles Edward, simply because in late 1871 HT and his family left London and were never based there again. Having said that, I don't know where HT was in June 1879, when Charles would have been conceived. He had been performing in South Shields the previous month, and from mid-1880 was based in Hull, but in between I have found no trace of him.
So, my question to you ... have you traced any living descendants of Henry William? They would be the best bet for proving that HT was the father. But basically, if descendants of all the three children were to take DNA tests, together with myself, it would show (or disprove) common parentage.
Regarding Henry Thomas Butler, my frustrations with tracking him down can be found at this thread: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=318087.36
I will also send you a personal message with a biography of him.
Cheers
Tim
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Hi Tim, I have not found any living relatives so far from Emma’s two boys - searching just throws up too many possibles and I cannot seem to narrow it down. By the way I forgot to mention that in the 1911 Census Emma states that she has had five children but only three survived. I take it that your connection is nothing to do with Emma so is it Margaret? I am still trying to locate a birth certificate for Ellen which may or may not be impossible! I have not even found her Death Cert. My husband thinks the DNA test is too expensive.
Hope we eventually solve this riddle of missing marriage certs.
Speak soon
Jan
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Hi Jan,
Yes, the frustrations of researching such a common name as Butler! Especially in London. You can easily end up investing large amounts of money ordering certificates that turn out to be incorrect. But let us see if, working together, we can find some trace of Henry William and Charles Edward's descendants.
Speaking of large amounts of money, DNA tests cost in the region of GBP 30-40. I would be happy to cover the costs if there was a clear benefit from the tests, but lacking Ellen's birth certificate, it is not yet clear that there would be any benefit.
Yes, my ancestry is through Henry Thomas and Margaret (McHale). Their 3rd child and oldest daughter was Edith Marguerite, who was my father's mother. My full name includes "Butler", as does my brother's.
All the best, Tim
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Jan ... as you are new to RootsChat, I'm not sure if you have noticed the personal messaging facility. I sent you a personal message asking for your email address so I can send you a biography of Henry Thomas Butler.
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Just sent it to you. Thanks Tim