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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cheshire => Topic started by: Talacharn on Thursday 27 September 18 12:20 BST (UK)
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I have an issue, in finding two very different entries for Rosslyn Swanlow Lane, Winsford, Cheshire. See below:
Clicking back to the front cover of both entries, it gives ‘1st May 1929 – 14 October 1930’. Could there be two different registers for the same year?
All of the people named, lived at Rosslyn, but not necessarily at the same time, so I am not questioning the names. Rosslyn was owned by Fredrick Thomas and Constance Moore Munton. It seems, his two sisters, one being Ann Marie Munton and cousin Harriett Ladner moved to be with them in later life when needing support and from probate records, it says all died there. I believe Jane Ikin, my great-aunt was there in a caring capacity.
1929 England and Wales Electoral Register (SPR.Mic.P.272/BL.C.34)
2080 Ladner Harriett Rosslyn
2081 Ikin Jane Rosslyn
1929 England and Wales Electoral Register (SPR.Mic.P.272/BL.C.34)
2350 Munton Ann Maria Rosslyn
2351 Munton Frederick Thomas Rosslyn
2352 Munton Constance Moore Rosslyn
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Have you checked their voting qualifications for that address :-\ You could qualify to vote on address even if you were not resident.
http://www.electoralregisters.org.uk/codes.htm
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Electoral Registers were published annually, except from 1919 to 1926 when there were two registers a year called the 'Spring' and 'Autumn' registers.
Stan
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Is the heading at the top of both pages the same? One may be the main register and the other a supplement giving perhaps late registrations, or perhaps those who qualified for local but not parliamentary elections.
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I have noticed previous years having two with one saying Spring.
From what I can see both are identical on the front cover.
On the version listing
Harriett Ladner Rw
Jane Oakes Rw
The other one has
Ann Maria Munton Rw Ow
Frederick Thomas Munton R O
Constance Moore Ladner Rw Ow
The property was owned by Frederick Thomas and Constance Moore Ladner and listed in previous records.
Ann Maria Munton is only listed from 1928 to 1930 and always listed first. In 1930 she died, but there is no doubt she was living there. She and Frederick were sister and brother.
I assume with Rw, they were visiting, whereas R(w) and O(w) they occupied the property.
It makes sense apart for the two very different records.
I only search in the library, so this afternoon I returned to check.
If it stated, two records were compiled at different times of the year, I could see how the two different records could exist, but I cannot find that.
<b>Could it be that the three were added, knowing they were owners residents, even though they were not there?</b>
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I was asking about headings for the pages not the whole piece. But if that doesn't help, if you're able to scroll back from the later page (the three Ow etc) there should be a cover page at the start of that section. And that section may consist entirely of O and Ow (w being women).
What í am thinking of is property owners who are not resident in the relevant area and could vote in council elections but not for Parliament. One way or another there must be a way to explain why there are two separated entries for the same address.
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At the start, it said
Residence = R
Occupation = O
and w denotes woman
I saw nothing at the top or bottom of the pages that referred to a season or section etc.
If those putting together the register have added the three who occupied, but were not present at the time, why not add them to the house rather than a new listing?
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... Clicking back to the front cover of both entries, it gives ‘1st May 1929 – 14 October 1930’. Could there be two different registers for the same year? ...
No - indeed if you scroll back on FindMyPast, you find that the 3 Muntons are on p39 of Polling District T, Swanlow Ward, nos 2350-2352. And just a bit further back (so the same physical book - usually), the other 2 at Rosslyn are on p35 of Polling District T, Swanlow Ward, and nos 2080/81.
So it's the same register.
Why are they split? Not at all sure but the idea that some are visitors is not true. You get your franchise based on where you live (or own) - it's not like the census where you get recorded wherever you are on one night. (I have to say that I've never understood the difference between Residence and Occupation - it's occupation, as in occupation of a property).
What this may be is a relic of the way that registers were previously organised. I'm looking at a 1919 Register for Alsager and each ward contains up to 3 divisions:
- Division 1 contains the names of those persons who are entitled to vote both as parliamentary electors and as local government electors
- Division 2 contains the names of those persons who are entitled to vote as parliamentary electors but not as local government electors
- Division 3 contains the names of those persons who are entitled to vote as local government electors but not as parliamentary
Now there's no sign of Divisions in this book, and not even much suggestion in the values on the pages that it might be the answer, but maybe what we are seeing is the relic of those Divisions. They took the titles out but didn't reorder the entries because that is hard work type-setting etc. You can't just re-sort the spreadsheet in 1929. So the pair were originally in one division and the trio originally in another. And changes to circumstances may cause different values in qualifications, etc., over the years until it no longer makes much sense.
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Thanks AdrianB38. I work in the library and take notes longhand, so never considered it the same book, which is now obvious. My route to find them was to search the different names Ladner and Munton.
There seems no logic in having two different entries, on voting day where do they look, as they relate to the same house some 4 pages apart.
The two Muntons who owned Rosslyn, did so from c.1909 to 1951 when Constance died, though may not have lived in it all of the time. All three Muntons lived there 1927 to 1930. Harriett Ladner their cousin joined them in 1929 the year she died. I cannot find Harriett Ladner on an electoral register between 1922 Stoke Newington when she was 63 and 1929 Winsford, Cheshire. I need to look again.
There is another Harriett Ladner in Cornwall, married to her brother, who is on the electoral register.
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The two Muntons who owned Rosslyn, did so from c.1909 to 1951 when Constance died, though may not have lived in it all of the time. All three Muntons lived there 1927 to 1930. Harriett Ladner their cousin joined them in 1929 the year she died. I cannot find Harriett Ladner on an electoral register between 1922 Stoke Newington when she was 63 and 1929 Winsford, Cheshire. I need to look again.
There is another Harriett Ladner in Cornwall, married to her brother, who is on the electoral register.
Re Harriet Ladner, cousin of the Munton family. She would have been eligible to vote in Parliamentary elections 1918-1927 only if she met the property qualification or had a husband who did. The Harriet Ladner in Cornwall would have met the eligibility criteria courtesy of her husband.
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Harriett Munton was on the electoral register in 1922 when living in Stoke Newington, London. There were two Ladner sisters and cousin Harriett Ladner, all spinsters and all teachers with LCC in London. They were all on the 1922 electoral register at different addresses.
In 1922, she was 63 and teaching. In moving, she may not have continued teaching, so her status could have changed. I can find no mention of her between 1922 and 1929. In searching, I did not specify any county, so there were many offering Harriett Ladner in Cornwall, but nothing more in London or Cheshire.
The interest is from a postcard I was given. It was sent from her brother in Cornwall, to Miss Ladner at Rosslyn as a Christmas card. The stamps, two George V green ½d, give a posting date between 1912 and 1923. That suggests she was at Rosslyn late 1922 or 1923.
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Harriett Munton was on the electoral register in 1922 when living in Stoke Newington, London. There were two Ladner sisters and cousin Harriett Ladner, all spinsters and all teachers with LCC in London. They were all on the 1922 electoral register at different addresses.
In 1922, she was 63 and teaching. In moving, she may not have continued teaching, so her status could have changed. I can find no mention of her between 1922 and 1929. In searching, I did not specify any county, so there were many offering Harriett Ladner in Cornwall, but nothing more in London or Cheshire.
The interest is from a postcard I was given. It was sent from her brother in Cornwall, to Miss Ladner at Rosslyn as a Christmas card. The stamps, two George V green ½d, give a posting date between 1912 and 1923. That suggests she was at Rosslyn late 1922 or 1923.
I'm confused with so many ladies named Harriet. Who was Harriet Munton?
Btw I noticed I wrote Munford in my previous post. It was done in a hurry. I'd written another different post in reply to an earlier post but it there was a problem and it was lost.
As you say it's possible that Harriet's status may have changed when she moved and she lost her right to vote until the franchise was extended to all women over 21 in 1928. When she was teaching in Stoke Newington she might have been renting a property on her own account and qualified as a householder. When she moved in with her cousins at Rosslyn she ceased to be a householder and was disfranchised. Being a spinster with no property she became invisible. If I'd been a woman in her position I would have been seriously annoyed. >:(
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... but maybe what we are seeing is the relic of those Divisions. They took the titles out but didn't reorder the entries because that is hard work type-setting etc. ...
On mature reflection (it happens ;) ) I withdraw that suggestion. It occurred to me later that just 3 or 4 pages was not going to be sufficient for a whole Division of that Ward. In fact, I can now see (he said hopefully) the difference between the two sets of Rosslyn addresses.
The 3 Muntons (2350-52) are in named houses in the "middle" of Swanlow Lane, between 19 and 21. The other 2 (2080/81) are in named houses under a "street name" of Swanlow - no "Lane" word. As "Swanlow" collates before "Swanlow Lane", the two in Swanlow come before all the ones in Swanlow Lane. That might suggest Harriet Ladner and Jane Ikin (2080/81) didn't successfully apply for their vote at the same time as the other three.
There is also a repeat at Rock Villa, and at Sandycroft / Sandicroft (assuming those two are the same place) - maybe others.