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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Cockneyrebel on Thursday 04 October 18 13:15 BST (UK)
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The above according to the 1911 census was the son (aged 2 and a half) of Albert Gibson (1881-1970) and Mabel De Cuderay King (1883-1918). I can find no birth record for him but think perhaps he was born to her prior to their marriage Q1 1909 St Pancras. Mystery surrounds her as I can't find her on the 1891/1901 censuses?
They had a daughter, Dorothy aged 3 months who was on the 1911 (b q1 1911?) census and a son Alfred H b q1 1914, neither of whom can I find either after their births?
Cr
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Maybe
Births Sep qtr 1908
Leslie Alfred O King (No mothers maiden surname on GRO index)
Pancras 1b 83
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I think you need the marriage certificate to go backwards with Mabel
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Yes rosie, maybe it'll help with the children too.
Cr
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Mabel and Gladys have mother's maiden name KING
Louisa Maud
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Family tree on Ancestry shows marriage at St Pancras Register office 05/09/1909, no parents showing on FT
Louisa Maud
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Have looked on 1891 and 1901 for Mabel born Mortlake Surry,
1901 have 13
1891 have 10
Would have thought it would be easier but none fit in, did Mabel come from abroad, she has an unusual name De Cuderay King?
Did find a death for a Leslie Owen King whose birth is shown as 17/11/1909, is this him?
Louisa Maud
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Do Irene Gibson, mmn King, Mar qtr 1913 St Pancras and Dora, Jun qtr 1915 also belong to this family?
Albert b 1914 was Albert Harry King.
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Just for notes pile, ( Does LM's include this? )
1901 RG13 156 159 p12 = 1 Brookfield Mansions = St Pancras
has a Mabel 20, sis Lillian 18, mother Mary Ann (married to John Huttly, Coal Merchant Employer)
1891 RG12 1346 97 = "Bexhill" Wallwood Road = Walthamstow
has a Mabel F 10, sis Lillian M 8, Ernest 2, mother Mary Ann 32, father Alfred E King 34 living on own means
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I might have been thrown by the fact that on the only census I can find her she States "born Mortlake Surrey", plus she also used her maiden name against Gibson
LM
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referring back to Ray's 1901
St Pancras
John Huttley aged 51 born St Pancras
Mary Ann 42 Islington
Mabel King step daughter 20 Islington
Lilian 18 step daughter Islington
John Ibetson Huttly married Mary Ann King 1900 St Pancras
all we need now is to find her previous husband ?
Louisa Maud
added
1891 Alfred E King aged 34
Mary A 32
Mabel F dau 10
Lilian dau 8
Ernest 2
so assumed Alfred E died before 1900
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I think a certificate might help, perhaps the marriage 1909, me thinks if 1891 and 1901 are correct that the extra names might be added for whatever reason, no such name come up anywhere else, might be a family name I suppose
Let us know how you get on CR
Louisa Maud
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Thank you all, I didn't know about Irene but think she must be in same family as Dora and the others. Have sent for marriage certificate for Albert and Mabel, so hopefully we'll get a proper named father.
Cr
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CR, perhaps you could let us know how you get on with cert info
Louisa Maud
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referring back to Ray's 1901
St Pancras
John Huttley aged 51 born St Pancras
Mary Ann 42 Islington
Mabel King step daughter 20 Islington
Lilian 18 step daughter Islington
John Ibetson Huttly married Mary Ann King 1900 St Pancras
all we need now is to find her previous husband ?
Louisa Maud
added
1891 Alfred E King aged 34
Mary A 32
Mabel F dau 10
Lilian dau 8
Ernest 2
so assumed Alfred E died before 1900
Sorry to be a downer, but this is Mabel Fanny King, mmn Webb, born in Highbury (Islington registration district), Dec qtr 1880.
She is still single in 1911 so can’t be “our” Mabel.
Looking forward to the update when the certificate arrives :)
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For what it is worth
Irene Dora Gibson married Herbert C Manning, death appears in 1959 Norfolk
Irene Dora Gibson birth reg 1886 West Ham MMN Fairbairn
AVM, I did look at 1911 which did throw a spanner in the works but we await the certificate, hopefully it will reveal more information
Louisa Maud
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Irene Gibson mmn King (1913) and Dora Gibson mmn King (1915) were the ones I suggested might be part of this family.
LM - are you looking for family naming themes?
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I was really looking for maiden names to try to tie up who belongs to who, I think sometimes I am a bit exuberant and go further that the originator asks, I have got bits and pieces of info but will hold on
So, I am going to await the cert
Louisa Maud
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Will let you know when cert arrives.
Cr
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Mabel De Cuderay King (1883-1918)
She died in Hammersmith
Dec 1918 Hammersmith 1a 504
Gibson, Mabel de Cuderay
age 33
So, if accurate, that puts her year of birth around 1885, which sort of ties in with the 1911 census (age 26).
1918 electoral register, Hammersmith North
9 Hume Road
Gibson, Albert
Gibson, Mabel
(just Albert listed at that address in Spring 1919)
It might also bring in another possible child?
March 1917 Hammersmith 1a 261
Gibson, Reginald Percy
mother King
Possibly he died September 2001, Windsor + Maidenhead
Reginald Percy Gibson, d-o-b 8 December 1916
But in 1939 this chap is is found with Albert and Ann(e) Wilkes in Harrow.
Albert Gibson seems to have a second wife, Maud?
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is this is second wife
married 05/08/1911
Albert Henry Wilkes aged 24 engineer of Hawley Road father Edward James
to
Ann Jane Watkins aged 23 address as above father William
witnesses William Stuart, Frederick Hedley Raven and Rosina Wilkes
if so there are a number of children born to this couple
Louisa Maud
PS Do you think the Wilkes family are connected?
Second thoughts I don't think the Wilkes and Gibson family are connected, he is possibly a boarder with the family, think I must be missing the point somewhere
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Hi LM
It doesn't look as though they are connected. Though I had hopes!
The only female King from Mortlake of the right sort of age seems to be Louisa Eliza Maud, born 5 July 1885. Not sure yet what happened to her after 1901.
Younger siblings included Florence Mabel and Violet Elizabeth Beatrice.
Parents Henry Charles and Sarah Louisa, nee Summersbey.
Mabel is a real mystery!
John
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There are people called Cordery from that area!
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Will just have to see what the cert turns up with, CR said he would let us know
Louisa Maud
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There is a possibility that Albert's second wife Maud(e) (I can't see a marriage!) was also a King!
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1929
12 Gainsford Street, Pancras
Gibson, Albert
Gibson, Maud Elizabeth
1937
200 Camrose Avenue, Harrow
Gibson, Albert (juror)
Gibson, Albert Harry
Gibson, Maude Elizabeth
Free index to 1939 seems to have Maud as born 1882 (she is Maria on the FindMyPast index!). Albert born 1881. Somewhere in Hayes and Harlington.
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Possible death of wife number two?
Sep 1952 Southend 4a 515
Gibson, Maude Elizabeth
age 69
She appears to be also indexed as Maude E LENT (age 69) in the original GRO index
Marriage in Pancras, 1904
George William James Lent
+
Maude Elizabeth King
This could be her in Pancras in the free index to 1911?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLL-817
May not lead anywhere, but interesting if it is Albert's lady.
Must wait for that certificate, sorry!
John
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The father of Maude Elizabeth King was a Harry Edward King, sergeant Metropolitan Police, according to her 30.07.1904 marriage record (St Mark, Regent’s Park). Husband was George William James Lent, 26.
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Well the Harry bit may be good as Albert Gibson born 1914 was Albert Harry!
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George William James Lent lived until 1959. Electoral rolls of the 1930s (and his probate entry) show his wife as a Mary Elizabeth Lent, so perhaps his marriage to Maude broke down.
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The death of Maude E Lent aged 69, Sep qtr 1952 Southend on Sea, may be relevant.
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Yes, she is indexed under two names.
Which is what made me wonder, I couldn't pin down a marriage for Albert Gibson and Maud.
John
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One of the 1904 marriage witnesses signed as Edward Harry King; not sure whether he is the same person as Harry Edward King.
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Harry King (25, railway clerk) married Harriet Brooks (22) at Holy Trinity, Haverstock Hill on 30 Apr 1882.
Possible parents of Maud Elizabeth King, mmn Brooks, Mar qtr 1883 St Pancras?
His father: Harry King, commercial traveller.
Her father: William Brooks, plasterer.
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Harry King (25, railway clerk) married Harriet Brooks (22) at Holy Trinity, Haverstock Hill on 30 Apr 1882.
Possible parents of Maud Elizabeth King, mmn Brooks, Mar qtr 1883 St Pancras?
Maud Elizabeth King born 26 November 1882, baptised at Holy Trinity Haverstock Hill on 6 May 1883.
Parents: Edward Harry (railway clerk) & Harriett Susan, of 68 Castle Rd.
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Sadly Maud doesn’t seem to have had a sister Mabel! She’s the only child of the family in 1891/1901.
1891: Edward H King sergeant Metropolitan Police, 35 b Manchester, with Susan H King 32 & Maud 8.
1901: Edward H King sergeant Met Police, 45 b Manchester, with Harriet 42 and Maud E 18.
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You're certainly looking at all the possibilities for the family. I've been misled by FindMyPast into believing that Albert Gibson was living with MARIA not Maud and they appear together on the 1939 register at 24 Gledwood Drive, Hayes and Harlington. Then found a marriage for an Albert to Maria F Goulden q4 1938 Hampstead! Still it does look like it is Maud rather than Maria on the 1939 script but can't find a marriage for him to a Maud? Or do you believe he married Maud E Lent?
Cr
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Maud Elizabeth King born 26 November 1882, baptised at Holy Trinity Haverstock Hill on 6 May 1883.
Well, at least that seems to match the d-o-b for Maud Gibson in 1939, so we know who she is. Name is Maid on ancestry!
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You're certainly looking at all the possibilities for the family. I've been misled by FindMyPast into believing that Albert Gibson was living with MARIA not Maud and they appear together on the 1939 register at 24 Gledwood Drive, Hayes and Harlington. Then found a marriage for an Albert to Maria F Goulden q4 1938 Hampstead! Still it does look like it is Maud rather than Maria on the 1939 script but can't find a marriage for him to a Maud? Or do you believe he married Maud E Lent?
Cr
See previous posts - he didn’t marry Maud, whose lawful husband was still alive until after her death.
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Or do you believe he married Maud E Lent?
Maybe Albert didn't actually marry her, but she was originally called King! Is this going to be just a bizarre coincidence?
John
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Weird isn’t it? And since Maud’s father Edward Harry King was from Manchester, any link to a Mortlake family (if we could even find one) is looking unlikely ???
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I'm afraid it is looking unlikely. Unless perhaps he adopted another daughter at some time :-\
Never mind, we have the cert to look forward to.
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Can't wait for the cert
Louisa Maud
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It seems to me that if he married Maud Elizabeth nee King, she was his 2nd wife and her father has nothing to do with his 1st wife?
Cr
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It seems to me that if he married Maud Elizabeth nee King, she was his 2nd wife and her father has nothing to do with his 1st wife?
Cr
Well yes, in a sense, but since his first wife and second “wife” had the maiden name King in common, it was at least worth investigating Maud in case she turned out to be related to Mabel and therefore a means to discovering the origins of Mabel. It’s not uncommon to find widowers marrying their deceased wives’ sisters (even though it wasn’t lawful until 1907).
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I agree with AVM about marrying sister in Laws, a distant relation married his late wife's sister about 1901, they lived in Essex but married in London and returned home to Essex to have their child, in the baptism records it shows that these parents were "illegally married" written by the incumbent, just a few years later it became legal
Louisa Maud
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Just received marriage certificate for Albert and Mabel, her father is recorded as Henry King deceased -Director Coal Mines, marriage 5/2/1909 at St Pancras registry office, witnesses Ernest Gibson and Daisy Chinnick, the latter Ernest's sister in law; they were living at 13 Gaisford St; ages recorded as 27 and 23.
Any thoughts?
Cr
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I do believe you have them plus their 3 children on 1911, her place of birth Mortlake and year of birth which is near enough
Mortlake comes under Richmond I do believe, no Mabel King born between 1885 and 1887
LM
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Seems odd, her father being a Coal Mines director, sounds like a big job, presumably in a coal mining area?
Cr
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You have read my mind, coal mines in Mortlake ?, not that I know off, I wonder if there was a second marriage between her parents or, forgive me for suggesting, was she was illegitimate, with a name like King as well, another needle in a haystack
Louisa Maud
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Can't find anything about her as yet on 1891, it is a real puzzle
Louisa Maud
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This lady is a total mystery, maybe she fibbed about her age at marriage as well as where she was born? Most coal mining areas are in the north, Wales and the midlands but there are some in Kent. I wonder if there are any records for coal mine directors?
Cr
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I do believe there are a few fibs here to be honest
I did put "coal mine directors" in a census but nothing came up directly, lots as coal miners, but Henry king :-\
LM
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There is a Henry King, b abt 1839 Randwick/Stroud Glos, coal dealer, showing up in Birmingham censuses but I can’t see a daughter who might be Mabel, or any likely link to Mortlake. He may be worth a look if only to eliminate.
1st marriage: 15 May 1864 to Ann Smallman in Aston.
2nd marriage: 1 Jan 1884 to Emily Manning 32, widow, in Birmingham.
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1881 RG11/2993 FOLIO 117 PAGE 37 Birmingham
Henry and Ann King, plus 8 children all born Birmingham and uncle Alfred Smallman
occ of Henry coal dealer
Need to go to next census
Louisa Maud
Death of an Ann 1882 aged 43 Birmingham
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Found a death June qtr 1884 aged 42,
birth estimated 1839 on census
Is this him I wonder?
But then it doesn't give us Mabel's birth which is assumed to be 1885,
One of the children belonging to Henry and Ann were Emma Quilla, married I think 1891, this would reveal her father being alive or not
Perhaps this is barking completely up the wrong tree
Louisa Maud
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It may well be a red herring (sorry) but Henry King + coal + having children about the right time was what made me think he was worth looking at if only to rule out. He certainly seems to have been fertile! Perhaps he had a girlfriend in Mortlake, or perhaps I am clutching at straws :D
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The Henry in Birmingham is still alive in 1911. I agree this doesn’t look a promising avenue.
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Any thoughts?
Cr
Yes
I wondered whether Mabel might leave her father's name blank, so anything is an improvement on that.
Age 23 for Mabel ties in with a birth circa 1885, as suggested.
13 Gaisford Street seems to have been a Gibson residence.
Henry King ties in with son being named Albert Harry and (maybe) doesn't rule out some faint connection to Maud Elizabeth's father (not sure, but poss a bit of mystery man?)
Director as in director, owner, even an engineer of some sort? The mine(s) may not necessarily be in the UK.
Pity Mabel won't feature in the 1921 census in case she changed her mind about Mortlake.
Find out where she was buried?
P.S. Yes, she could have made it all up!
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More straw-clutching on my part: who is Janet du Cudray b abt 1879 Paddington, a nursechild with a Shepherd family in Willesden in 1881?
RG11/1364/108/37.
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More straw-clutching on my part: who is Janet du Cudray b abt 1879 Paddington, a nursechild with a Shepherd family in Willesden in 1881?
RG11/1364/108/37.
Could be Jeanne du Coudray, mmn du Coudray, Jun qtr 1879 Marylebone.
If so she may have been an actress who emigrated to Australia in 1913 aged “29”.
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There was a Mabel King b q1 1886 at Lambeth, mmn Holbrook, at least Lambeth is in Surrey? Angélique du Coudray c. 1712 – 17 April 1794 was a famous French midwife, perhaps Mabel's mother had a difficult birth?
Cr
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There was a Mabel King b q1 1886 at Lambeth, mmn Holbrook, at least Lambeth is in Surrey.
Parents were Henry King (a cloth cutter/tailor) and Alice nee Holbrook, marr Shoreditch 1870.
Mabel (b Kennington) is still unmarried in 1911 with widowed mum Alice, in Tottenham.
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Ah well another dead end, this is turning out to be a complete mystery and still no further forward with the original Leslie O K Gibson?
Cr
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Possible marriage?
June 1929 Islington 1b 287
King, Leslie A. O. - spouse Neal
Neal, Ellen B. - spouse King
Death
March 1963 Islington 5c 1520
King, Leslie A. O.
age 54
Probate Calendar
Leslie Alfred Owen King
of 16 Dalmeny Avenue London N7
died 20 March 1963
Administration to Ellen Blanche King, widow
https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=king&yearOfDeath=1963&page=18#calendar
I could suggest that you try for the pdf of his birth, being the only record of Mabel pre her marriage, guessing you might not be too keen!
John
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Electoral register for 1939 has Leslie Alfred Owen King and Ellen Blanche King at 88 Grosvenor Avenue in Islington.
Using that info, a free address search of the 1939 Register has Leslie King, born 1908, living with Blanche (Ellen) Fisher (King) and two closed.
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Yes jonw I'm not very keen on getting another certificate as the one for Mabel wasn't much help as it was.
Cr
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Decided to 'bite the bullet' and ordered birth pdf for Leslie Alfred Owen King.
Cr
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Don't forget to let us know what the cert reveals CR
Louisa Maud
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Yes certainly will do.
Cr
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Received certificate today, it says: Leslie Alfred Owen born 17/7/1908 at 13 Gaisford St, East St Pancras, mmn Mabel King of no occupation, she was the informant, no father named, registered 19/8/1908.
So I assume he was born just before their marriage and was the one you all found later in his life; strangely no mention of de Cuderay on the birth cert?
Cr
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How strange
Louisa Maud
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sorry, wrong thread
Louisa Maud
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How strange
The whole thing is strange.
13 Gaisford Street seems to be the address of Martha Gibson, I take it she was Albert's mother and thus it was his address as well.
But I'm still not sure whether Albert was LAO's father. He might have been of course, or perhaps he just fell in love with the young pregnant lodger!
So sorry that we don't seem to have got anywhere with Mabel.
John
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Well it is back to looking for just plain Mabel with no extras attached to her name, have you considered it could be an incumbents error?
Louisa Maud
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Well it is back to looking for just plain Mabel with no extras attached to her name, have you considered it could be an incumbents error?
Louisa Maud
The “de Cuderay” element is given as part of her name both at marriage and on her death, so doesn’t appear likely to be a registrar’s error.
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It seems a real mystery to me that it wasn't used on the son's birth cert
LM
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Maybe she hadn’t thought of it by the time her son was born? She didn’t marry until he was 6 months old.
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Well we're none the wiser, maybe he was adopted by Albert unofficially but as he kept the King surname for subsequent events perhaps Albert wasn't his father????
Cr
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I cannot help but keep coming back to 3 births,
Mabel King Islington
Lilian King Islington
Ernest King 1889 , he was aged 22 and stepson to John and Mary Ann Huttley, all three registered with maiden name Webb
John Huttly born circa 1850 died 1928
I have to check this out but a Mary Ann King married John Huttly 1900, he being a coal merchant
All supposition at this moment in time, other than that CR I am at a loss
Louisa Maud