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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: geraldine96 on Friday 05 October 18 15:04 BST (UK)
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I am looking for a Cissie Roche, possibly born in the 1870's or early 1880's. She was part of the volunteers in the 1916 Rising.
She is listed in the back pages of Helen Ashdown's book about the 1916 'Rising' in Enniscorthy ' her residence is given as Lower Ferns This book isn't available anywhere in England. I wonder if there are any Rootschatters around Enniscorthy that have the book and can tell me about Cissie Roche.
I'd like to know if Cissie is her real name. Is there any information giving details of her Roche family (location, siblings) and what she did as a member of Cumannn na Mban.
There may be a copy in the Enniscorthy Library.....any help would be really appreciated. i am in England so can't look up anything re the book. Any information about the name 'Cissie' could help me trace birth, marriage records. Thankyou. Geraldine96
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Cecilia
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Cicily, Cecilia, Sissie.
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My great aunt Cissie was really called Racheal Matilda. She hated the name so just used another all her life
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I've met Sarahs who are known as Cissie.
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Probably not. It was a family familiar name. My fathers cousin Percy 1909 to 1994 wrote me a letter re his family. In it he included several family familiar names, 'We had' etc. 'Cissie' was a half sister to him. Actual name Mary Emmeline (Elizabeth?) 1892 to1936. Doesn't mean your Cissie is a Mary Emmeline.
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Cicily, Cecilia
Both of those were the baptismal names of siblings and cousins of grandparents. They were all called Cissie or Ciss. I recall, when I was young, that the local newsagent and sweet shop was owned by a Ciss. I eventually found out that she was my 2nd cousin, once removed - and I didn't have any free sweets :D
Gadget
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I was trying to find something on the Military Archives site but frankly that site has become very difficult to use of late.
http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/military-service-pensions-collection-1916-1923
This is from 2015 but I wonder if the email address at the bottom could help
https://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/wexford-women-of-the-1916-rising-31562229.html
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Without siblings or clues it's impossible to say.
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Ciss is often a pet name for a girl in a family of boys = "sister"
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In England and Wales Cissie is certainly a real name, there are thousands registered as first or middle names, I imagine it would also be a proper name in Ireland.
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I am looking for a Cissie Roche, possibly born in the 1870's or early 1880's. She was part of the volunteers in the 1916 Rising.
She is listed in the back pages of Helen Ashdown's book about the 1916 'Rising' in Enniscorthy ' her residence is given as Lower Ferns This book isn't available anywhere in England. I wonder if there are any Rootschatters around Enniscorthy that have the book and can tell me about Cissie Roche.
I'd like to know if Cissie is her real name. Is there any information giving details of her Roche family (location, siblings) and what she did as a member of Cumannn na Mban.
There may be a copy in the Enniscorthy Library.....any help would be really appreciated. i am in England so can't look up anything re the book. Any information about the name 'Cissie' could help me trace birth, marriage records. Thankyou. Geraldine96
Is it not available via InterLibrary loan in UK?
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Helen Ashdown, author 'The Last Surrender - County Wexford 1916'
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I think can also be for catherine as my grandfathers second wife was cissie and that her real name. That was in scotland so maybe similar in ireland
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Another vote from me for Cecilia - my grandmother's name but she was always known as Cis or Cissie - her father listed her as Cissie aged 14 on the 1901 census.
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It's Cicely for me! ;D
My maternal grandmother was named Cicely - and always called Ciss or Cissie by her peers.
Mum had Cicely as a middle name, and it's been passed on to my granddaughter; also as a middle name.
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My great aunt was called Kezia which, according to my mother she hated so was always called Cissie, even on the census.
Patty :)
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I have also seen "Cis" as a shorten version of Francisca.
Rob van Haastert
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My Mum had a half sister known as Cissie but she was registered and bap as far as I'm aware as Elizabeth
Jane :-)
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One of my Aunts was know as Cissie but her name was Frances.
Carol
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My great uncle's wife was called Cissie, her actual name was Bridget.
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Ciss is often a pet name for a girl in a family of boys = "sister"
Cheers. It must also be an Irish thing as my grandmother was also called Ciss. I recall a souvenir glass with Ciss on it at her house.
She came from a family 4 boys and herself.
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This brother and sister in right area might be of interest Jane and Thomas
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Ferns/Ferns_Town/1789118/
Jane's daughter Bridget born 1885
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1885/02622/1967730.pdf
Jane's marriage 1893
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1893/10618/5868675.pdf
both appear to have been born illigit Jane 1865 and Thomas 1869 to Anty Roche
possible marriage for Thomas to Lucy Boland 1918
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1918/09722/5527766.pdf
Thomas Roche's pension application 1943 says date of birth 15th July 1869 date of marriage 5th Aug 1918 address Pearse Cottage ,Ferns
still married no children alive
died 1952
263
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1952/04485/4177439.pdf
http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/search.aspx
so wondering could Jane's daughter Bridget be a candidate for Cissie
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In my family on Cheshire/Flintshire borders a couple of instances of Cissie. In each case Cissie was Elizabeth.
Ray
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Thankyou Rootschatters, the Cissie or Ciss question has drawn a lot of interest and has been very helpful. I'll try some of the names out and see what I get back from my searches.
the family summarised by Rootschatter 'dathai' this morning, sat. 6th Oct. is my Roche family. Thomas Roche 1869 - 1952 from Ferns was an active member of the Ferns battalion of Irish Volunteers in the 1916 'Rising'. Bridget Roche born 1885 is my grandmother. About 3 weeks ago I spoke to a 93 year old resident in Ferns who knew Thomas well, and she gave me some names of Thomas' family - one of these names was 'Cissie'; it wasn't clear if 'Cissie ' was a niece or a sibling. On the same day I visited the Atheneum museum in Enniscorthy to see a commemorative exhibition for the 1916 'Rising'. While there I met Helen Ashdown's mother and she showed me Helen's book called 'The Last Surrender'- The 1916 Rising. In the back were all the names of people featured in her book. Along with Thomas Roche there was Cissie Roche and john Roche. Unfortunately I had to return to England and left Enniscorthy that afternoon. i have looked on the internet to see if the book can be purchased/loaned in England but have drawn a blank. Helen's mother said it's publication was brief and it's no longer available to buy. I think the book can only be found in the Enniscorthy environs. i live in England and doubt that any kind of Inter - library loan can be arranged between the republic of Ireland and England. Like Rootschatter 'Dathai', I wonder if 'Cissie' is my grandmother Bridget too, I'd really like to find out - Helen Ashdown's book may help. If my appeal through Rootschat doesn't work, I'll have to think of something else. Can anyone reading this message who lives in the Enniscorthy area read the pages in the book relevant to Cissie Roche (if they can track the book down, possibly the Enniscorthy library). I'll leave it with you, Rootschatters and see what comes up, but thanks for all your very prompt replies - it keeps the search 'alive'. Geraldine96
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Geraldine....you may want to consider asking a moderator to change the title of your post to request a library look up for the book.
Carol
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No apologies for being slightly off-topic, but I went to an all-boys school and there a couple of sissies in my class.
Martin
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My grandmother, Elizabeth Ann, was always known as "Cissie", she'd been the eldest girl in the family, and it seems to have been a nickname for her as a sister. It was quite a surprise to find out what her real name was!
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Thomas Roche's pension application 1943 says
date of birth 15th July 1869
date of marriage 5th Aug 1918
address Pearse Cottage ,Ferns
still married no children alive
died 1952
263
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1952/04485/4177439.pdf
http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/search.aspx
https://ireland-calling.com/lifestyle/participants-in-easter-rising-1916/
quote from article above
“It’s been the subject of debate for nearly 100 years but now we have a definitive
List of names showing who really took part in the Easter Rising 1916"
http://www.militaryarchives.ie/fileadmin/user_upload/MSPC/documents-34/Veterans_of_Easter_Week_1916_with_recognised_military_service.pdf
No person named Cissie mentioned here but there are persons with surname Roche,
only one female named Julia from Clare
Thomas Roche Pearse Cottage, Ferns Wexford Ireland,
Michael from Wexford, Joseph, Seán Augustine, Thomas & Timothy all from Dublin
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I have also seen "Cis" as a shorten version of Francisca.
Rob van Haastert
My mother had a cousin she always referred to as Cissy.
We called her Aunt Alice.... eventually I discovered her first name had been Francesca.
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Ciss is often a pet name for a girl in a family of boys = "sister"
We have a winner!
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Thanks Wexflyer and mowsehowse, i think Wexflyer's interpretation of Cissie may explain the 'Cissie Roche' title that is connected to my family. i haven't been able to find any more information on the internet regarding our 'Cissie Roche'; I think I'll have to wait until I can go back to Ireland and read Helen Ashdown's book 'The Last Surrender'. There are 2 women called 'Cissie' in the South Wexford brigades of Cumman na Mban but they don't have the right surname. I wonder if the use of 'Cissie' has anything to do with sisterhood as in the IRB - the Irish Republican brotherhood - just a thought.....Thanks for your input, I appreciate the help. geraldine96
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I wonder if the use of 'Cissie' has anything to do with sisterhood as in the IRB - the Irish Republican brotherhood - just a thought.....
Oh, no, nothing to do with the IRB!
Cis/Cissie was a generic nickname for a sister. Nothing more. There was a Cis Roche in one of my families.
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I always thought it was a diminutive of Cicely or maybe Cecelia. Never quite understand these nicknames - why is someone called Margaret sometimes known as Peggy, for instance.
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The Cissie in my family was really Mabel.
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I always thought it was a diminutive of Cicely or maybe Cecelia. Never quite understand these nicknames - why is someone called Margaret sometimes known as Peggy, for instance.
Ciss/Cissie may well be a diminutive for Cicely or Cecelia. But how many women were named Cicely or Cecelia in 19th or early 20th Century Ireland? Not many. By contrast, how many women were sisters? Very many. It follows that the overwhelming majority of those know as "Ciss/Cissie" were simply sisters.
As for Peggy, the derivation is: Margaret to Meggy/Meg, to Peggy/Peg.
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I always thought it was a diminutive of Cicely or maybe Cecelia. Never quite understand these nicknames - why is someone called Margaret sometimes known as Peggy, for instance.
Ciss/Cissie may well be a diminutive for Cicely or Cecelia. But how many women were named Cicely or Cecelia in 19th or early 20th Century Ireland? Not many. By contrast, how many women were sisters? Very many. It follows that the overwhelming majority of those know as "Ciss/Cissie" were simply sisters.
As for Peggy, the derivation is: Margaret to Meggy/Meg, to Peggy/Peg.
My younger daughter calls her older sister cissy.
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I always thought it was a diminutive of Cicely or maybe Cecelia. Never quite understand these nicknames - why is someone called Margaret sometimes known as Peggy, for instance.
Ciss/Cissie may well be a diminutive for Cicely or Cecelia. But how many women were named Cicely or Cecelia in 19th or early 20th Century Ireland?
I knew a 20c Cicely... (adorable woman,) and I know a Cecelia now.....
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[quote author=Wexflyer link=topic=801519.msg6598795#msg6598795
Ciss/Cissie may well be a diminutive for Cicely or Cecelia. But how many women were named Cicely or Cecelia in 19th or early 20th Century Ireland? Not many. By contrast, how many women were sisters? Very many. It follows that the overwhelming majority of those know as "Ciss/Cissie" were simply sisters.
My grandmother Cecilia/Cissie/Cis born in England 1890 of second generation staunch Roman Catholic Irish parents was named after St. Cecilia.
I don't think any conclusions can be drawn over names, they are such a personal thing.
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My great grandmother was known as Ciss but her real name was Alice
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"Proud Cis" was a nickname for Cecily Neville, Duchess of York, the wife of Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York
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Cissy just means she was the oldest girl.
It has no relationship to their birth name.
Likewise with Sonny for boys.
More info here https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/irelandxo-insight-old-irish-first-names-and-aliases#:~:text=sonny%20(eldest%20boy)%20and%20sissy%20(eldest%20girl).%20 (https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/irelandxo-insight-old-irish-first-names-and-aliases#:~:text=sonny%20(eldest%20boy)%20and%20sissy%20(eldest%20girl).%20)
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As I mentioned quite early on in this topic, my grandma was known by all her younger siblings as "Cissie" although that was never her name. some of the younger ones were apparently quite surprised on her death to discover her real names! (Elizabeth Ann)
TY
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Cissy just means she was the oldest girl.
It has no relationship to their birth name.
Not always true. My mother sometimes calls my younger sister Cissie although her actual name is Nancy.
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Cissy just means she was the oldest girl.
It has no relationship to their birth name.
Likewise with Sonny for boys.
More info here https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/irelandxo-insight-old-irish-first-names-and-aliases#:~:text=sonny%20(eldest%20boy)%20and%20sissy%20(eldest%20girl).%20 (https://irelandxo.com/ireland-xo/news/irelandxo-insight-old-irish-first-names-and-aliases#:~:text=sonny%20(eldest%20boy)%20and%20sissy%20(eldest%20girl).%20)
Not true!
As I said earlier in the thread, my grandmother was christened Cicely.
So she was always Cissie, whenever a short version was required.
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@KGarrad
Ok so perhaps an over-generalisation; I'll rephrase as Cissy typically was just the pet name for the oldest girl in a Catholic family and bore little relationship with her birth name.
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I know very little about names in a Catholic family! :D
My parents, grandparents, children, grandchildren and siblings all had individual names - none of them used in the family.
Otherwise I would have been called Abraham :o
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My Catholic Auntie AGNES O'Malley born 1880's in Ireland appears on Liverpool Census 1891 1901 with her Siblings living with the In Laws as " Cissie" till she married in 1905