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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wexford => Topic started by: Diarmuidgannon1916 on Sunday 07 October 18 22:37 BST (UK)
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I am trying to trace my great great great grandfather william higginbotham, his son also called william was born out of weddlock on the 22nd September 1837 , his mother name is anne maoig.?
Information is from the wexford parish records , I have searched for a marriage after 1837 but have not found a wedding cert, so I think william Jr. was illegitimate child, it information on the father is what am looking for, so back from 1837 to 1800s , any help or ideas, going forward from 1837 to 1900s I have all information,
Diarmuid.
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They didn't mince words, did they, back then.
Which parish is it from? Is there a marriage register for that period for the parish? What about neighbouring parishes? How many years after birth did you search?
What religious denomination?
Civil registration of marriages began for Church of Ireland in 1845 and Catholics 1864. Before those dates any marriage record, if there was a marriage, would have been in parish marriage register. Church marriage register may not have survived. Many C. of I. registers were destroyed in Dublin during Irish Civil War.
I don't see place of abode for bridegroom, unless it was same as bride (?). Was place of abode given for other fathers? Were occupations of fathers stated? If he was the only one on the page with no place of residence given I suspect he wasn't present at the ceremony and none of the baptismal party knew where he hailed from. He may not have been around when the baby was born.
Surname strikes me as English, although there are Irish Higgins. Look at Griffiths' Valuation, Tithe Applottments register, local directory and any other records around the time which contain people's names in the area to see if a Higginbothom was settled there.
Father might have been a soldier or sailor. Child's birth and parents' marriage might be in Overseas Registers.
Edit. Was Mary Farrell godmother? From what I can see other children had 2 godparents/sponsors. Only 1 sponsor is necessary at a Catholic baptism but most parents select 2, one of each gender and often one from each side of family. I've noticed a single sponsor, usually female, at other baptisms of illegitimate babies in 19thC. In this case it could be another possible indicator that no one from the father's family was present. If this was a Catholic baptism, it may have been that William Higginbotham, the father, wasn't Catholic.
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If the child survived to adulthood, search for civil registration of a marriage for him to see what information he gave regarding his father.
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Several Higginbotham entries on Griffiths' Valuation including 2 for a William. Several entries for Richard Higginbotham, landlord. Some Higginbotham holdings were substantial.
Tithe Applottments. Richard Higginbotham was a Commissioner. Apart from him there was only 1 Higginbotham name listed for Wexford.
Do you have William junior's marriage?
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William higginbotham Jr was married 7th June 1862 to Sarah dempsey,
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Their marriage was pre civil registration so no information on father.
Many other bridegrooms have comments written in notes margin in parish register but not William, unfortunately. Several militia members among them and a few sailors. One margin note says "Returned from N.S. Wales".
Do you know who the witnesses, surname Flood (?) were?
Did William jnr. live in Wexford Town?
Do you know if he had siblings?
A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped to marry his father.
If William senior was a soldier or sailor he may have been away for years, delaying a marriage.
If William snr. was Church of Ireland then a marriage might have been in C. of I. to ensure it was legal.
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I am trying to trace my great great great grandfather william higginbotham, his son also called william was born out of weddlock on the 22nd September 1837 , his mother name is anne maoig.?
Information is from the wexford parish records
Best I can do with Anne's surname is Ma... and last letter is g or y.
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Macoy ?
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William higginbotham Jr lived in trimmers Lane, John Street, selskar st ,enniscorthy, when he married in 1862 , the name flood may have been a person the mother or father knew so I would say that flood lived in enniscorthy or , where I got william Jr parish record for his baptismal ,(baptismal , parish records wexford,) don't, know if there were siblings, I only know william Jr ,children and wife , I know william Jr was married in a Catholic Church, he was Catholic, but that doesn't mean his father was , maiden-stone
Diarmuid.
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William higginbotham Jr married in enniscorthy
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William higginbotham Jr married in enniscorthy
The marriage is in Wexford parish register.
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0610
Diocese: Ferns; Parish: Wexford; Microfilm 04254/02; Marriages 9th Jan. 1823 - 25th Nov. 1867.
Marriage 7th June 1862.
The latest marriage in Enniscorthy register on National Library of Ireland website was November 1861.
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I have that wedding cert for william higginbotham Jr,
Diarmuid
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Hi maiden stone one of these mary farrell,s maybe the sponsor for william higginbotham Jr, what do you think, Monart seem to be in enniscorthy,
Diarmuid
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Also rossminoge seem to be in enniscorthy also
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Also rossminoge seem to be in enniscorthy also
It most certainly is not!
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William higginbotham Jr lived in trimmers Lane, John Street, selskar st ,enniscorthy,
Diarmuid.
No, no, no!
These places are all in Wexford, not Enniscorthy.
They are three separate streets. He cannot have lived in all three in 1862!
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OP, did you look at this marriage?
Marriage of WILLIAM HIGGINBOTHAM
in 1853
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Wexford
Returns Year 1853
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 10
Returns Page No 636
A little detective work shows the marriage was to Mary Carr.
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Name: William Higginbottom
Date of Birth: 12-May-1854
Date of Baptism: 13-May-1854
Address: Parish/District: Wexford
Gender:
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: William Higginbottom
Mother: Mary Carr
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: John Carr
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Christina Codd
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A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped to marry his father legal.
There is no such implication. The priest simply recorded the father's name.
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Name: James Higginbotham
Date of Birth: 07-Jun-1856
Date of Baptism: 08-Jun-1856
Address: Parish/District: Wexford
Gender:
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: William Higginbotham
Mother: Mary Carr
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: John Carr
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Margaret Carr
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Name: Stephen Higginbottom
Date of Birth: 25-Dec-1859
Date of Baptism: 26-Dec-1859
Address: Parish/District: Wexford
Gender: County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: William Higginbottom
Mother: Bridget Sullivan
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: Patrick Cullin
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Mary Furlong
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Name: John William Higginbotham
Date of Birth: 02-Jun-1862
Date of Baptism: 04-Jun-1862
Address: Parish/District: Wexford
Gender:
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: Joseph Higginbotham
Mother: Eleanor Fielding
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: John Neil
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Not Recorded
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Name: Michael Higginbotham
Date of Birth: 05-Aug-1863
Date of Baptism: 06-Aug-1863
Address: Parish/District: Wexford
Gender: County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: William Higginbotham
Mother: Sarah Dempsy
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: John Murphy
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Margaret Clarke
This couple had at least six children.
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1865 birth of William Higginbotham, son of William Do., and Sarah Dempsey. Father's occupation given as labourer.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03570/2315674.pdf (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03570/2315674.pdf)
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Macoy ?
I agree, Macoy.
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A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped to marry his father.
There is no such implication. The priest simply recorded the father's name.
Was it usual for an illegitimate baby to be recorded in a baptism register with father's surname rather than mother's surname?
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Thanks to both wex flyer and maiden stone only mentioned the places that william higginbotham Jr lived in his life time in wexford not just 1862 but till his death in 1904 , you have to forgive me but I am from Dublin my great grandmother elizabeth higginbotham, was William Jr daughter , she was born 1871 wexford but on her Baptismal she,s sarah , I have all william higginbotham Jr and his wife sarah dempsey (my great great grandparents ) children's birth certs and death certificates, it was william Jr and his mother and father is was trying to trace but thank you wex flyer for all your efforts and help its very welcomed
Kind regards
Diarmuid
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my great grandmother elizabeth higginbotham, was William Jr daughter , she was born 1871 wexford but on her Baptismal she,s sarah , I have all william higginbotham Jr and his wife sarah dempsey (my great great grandparents ) children's birth certs and death certificates
Diarmuid
Is this Sarah's birth registration 1871?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03307/2212135.pdf
Supt. Registrar's district Wexford; Reg. district Wexford.
Place of birth: Selskar;
Father: William Higginbotham, residence Selskar; occupation: labourer;
Mother: Sarah Higginbotham, formerly Dempsey.
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Yes 1871 it will be sarah ,
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A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped to marry his father.
There is no such implication. The priest simply recorded the father's name.
Was it usual for an illegitimate baby to be recorded in a baptism register with father's surname rather than mother's surname?
Not unusual. For Catholics. In Ireland.
In England, my understanding is that things were rather different. The legal position, of course, was that a bastard had no legal father. "Filius nullis" is the legal term. But my experience is that Irish Catholic registers name the father, where known. Of course, many registers don't give any child an explicit surname at all, which creates ambiguity.
In Ireland, bastards were typically know by their reputed father's name. In life, that is, not just in the parish registers. I stand to be corrected, but I believe the opposite was true in England? It would also be interesting to study if the introduction of civil registration in 1864 changed this practice - the reputed father not being named at all, on civil registration records, by regulation.
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my great grandmother elizabeth higginbotham, was William Jr daughter , she was born 1871 wexford but on her Baptismal she,s sarah , I have all william higginbotham Jr and his wife sarah dempsey (my great great grandparents ) children's birth certs and death certificates
Diarmuid
Is this Sarah's birth registration 1871?
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03307/2212135.pdf
Supt. Registrar's district Wexford; Reg. district Wexford.
Place of birth: Selskar;
Father: William Higginbotham, residence Selskar; occupation: labourer;
Mother: Sarah Higginbotham, formerly Dempsey.
But the child was baptized as Elizabeth, not Sarah. Probably confusion between the child's and mother's names on the civil registration?
Name: Elizabeth Higginbotham
Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 07-Mar-1871
Address:
Parish/District: Wexford
Gender: Female
County Co. Wexford
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: William Higginbotham
Mother: Sarah Dempsey
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /Informant 1: William Murphy
Sponsor 2 /Informant 2: Bridget Dempsey
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A few more thoughts on possible marriage of William's parents:
Baby William's surname in church register was Higginbotham. Presumably his mother expected/hoped to marry his father.
There is no such implication. The priest simply recorded the father's name.
Was it usual for an illegitimate baby to be recorded in a baptism register with father's surname rather than mother's surname?
Not unusual. For Catholics. In Ireland.
In England, my understanding is that things were rather different. The legal position, of course, was that a bastard had no legal father. "Filius nullis" is the legal term. But my experience is that Irish Catholic registers name the father, where known. Of course, many registers don't give the child an explicit surname at all, which creates ambiguity.
Thanks. I haven't come across any illegitimate births in any of my Irish lines. I would have expected William to have been called Macoy in the baptism register after his mother, regardless of what surname he was known by in later life.
One of my English lines had several illegitimate births in 2 generations. Every child had the mother's surname in baptism and birth registers, even when the father was named and even the baby whose parents married 2 years after his birth and whose father's name was on birth certificate. Babies had mother's surname for all other illegitimate births or baptisms I can recall from 19thC. Father's surname was sometimes added as middle name.
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....You have to forgive me but I am from Dublin ....
Kind regards
Diarmuid
I entirely understand, just wanted to make sure I got your attention - did not want you to go down a wrong path! 😁
I think the key thing for you to do right now is to get a copy of the 1853 marriage registration of William Higginbotham in Wexford. This is may well be the father of your William, Jr. The registration record will give his address and occupation, and also his father's name and occupation. As you live in Dublin, you can get this easily from the registration office. Please let us all know what it says!
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One of my English lines had several illegitimate births in 2 generations. Every child had the mother's surname in baptism and birth registers, even when the father was named and even the baby whose parents married 2 years after his birth and whose father's name was on birth certificate. Babies had mother's surname for all other illegitimate births or baptisms I can recall from 19thC. Father's surname was sometimes added as middle name.
I have no English lines, so no direct experience, but what you outline is exactly in accord with what research guides state was the practice in England. But the Irish Catholic practice was very clearly and consistently the opposite.
Of course, the English were all dreadfully loyal, and law abiding. The Irish, not so much!
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Some other children of William & Sarah:
Michael 1863 (reply #22 Wexflyer)
William 1865 (reply #23 Wexflyer)
William 1873 address Trimmer's lane, Wexford
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03182/2167041.pdf
James 1880 address Selskar
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1880/02849/2044246.pdf
John 1880 address Selskar
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1882/02768/2016056.pdf
All mother Sarah, formerly Dempsey. All births Wexford Superintendent Registrar's district; Wexford registration district.
So the marriage of William Higginbotham to Sarah Dempsey in Wexford parish looks to be the right one.
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Of course, the English were all dreadfully loyal, and law abiding. The Irish, not so much!
On the other hand, some of my English ancestors often engaged in hanky-panky whereas my Irish ones seemed to have been moral. The English ones may have had more opportunity + a wider pool of people with whom to misbehave. Both lots altered facts to fit situations. :)
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Yes all information regarding william Jr and Sarah is correct but I need to look at a marriage in wexford 1853 that may be william jr father .
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This looks like William + 2 sons on 1901 census.
Trimmer's Lane West (Wexford Urban, Wexford)
William Higginbotham age 68, widower, labourer
James Higginbotham age 22
John Higginbotham age 20
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wexford/Wexford_Urban/Trimmer_s_Lane_West/1806471
Ages of James and John were a year or 2 out. William's age may not have beeen accurate.
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Yes that's correct maiden stone and 1911 the two brothers lived together, William Jr died in 1904 he laid to rest in crosstown cemetery.
Diarmuid
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William 1873 address Trimmer's lane, Wexford
James 1880 address Selskar
John 1880 address Selskar
Just a quick comment on the addresses. Trimmer's Lane and Selskar Street are connecting streets in the north end of Wexford. In fact, I had several wonderful meals in a great restaurant located on the corner between these two streets just two weeks ago. But the point I want to make is that the birth registrations say Selskar, rather than Selskar St. This matters, as the local area is also known simply as Selskar So, I don't think they changed where they were living, it is just a change from specifying the exact lane, to giving a more general name. In addition, Selskar street is the continuation of Main St, and was/is a much more expensive a location that the humble Trimmer's Lane. i.e. unlikely they lived on Selkar St. Finally, as Maiden Stone just posted, the family were still in Trimmer's Lane in 1901. Putting all this together, I think it pretty certain that all the children were actually born in Trimmer's Lane.
As a side note, the area gets its name from Selskar Abbey, where Henry II of England did penance in 1172 for the murder of St. Thomas a Becket.
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I've found that a lot of ages are wrong doing my family research especially in the 1800s,