RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: Lindyloowho on Tuesday 09 October 18 02:09 BST (UK)
-
My father joined the 7th Btn. Northumberland Fusiliers in Dec. 1922. I have his service record and have some questions:
1. His Unit is shown alternatively as Depot or 1st. What are these, and what is the difference between the Unit and the Battalion?
2. Is there any way I can find exactly where he was during his various postings? He did talk of being in Ireland in the early 1920's, but I can find no reference to that in his service record.
3. He eventually ended up as an instructor at the Small Arms School in Hythe, and in 1939 is posted to the Royal Military College (Sandhurst). Under promotions it says "appointed vice styles". What does this mean? I could find no reference to that anywhere😉 The writing is very clear so I'm very sure that's what it says.
Many thanks, Linda
-
3) I would suggest vice is "in place of" (Latin) - so he was appointed in place of the previous postholder whose surname was Styles. I have seen this usage in the Gazette and in WW1 Battalion War Diaries.
Philip
-
Ireland was within the UK then, so it was a home posting.
The depot would be a small unit based at the headquarters, while 1st and 2nd Battalions could be elsewhere, often one abroad, the other in UK.
I agree with Philip on “vice”.
-
All on the ball so far. Where he served will be hidden if you like in the units he served with. For example when he went to the Small Arms School we would know he was in Hythe.
It is almost always advisable to be able to see the original to construct a time line of units and dates from which one can attempt to find the places, although the inter war years usually need the help of the regimental museum. What we have a is that he seems to have served with 17 BN, 1 ,Bn, the Depot, the Small Arms School and the RMA. Without a time line that doesn't really make up a history.
MaxD
-
Thank you for the replies - that clears up the question re vice styles. Never would have figured that out! There are some papers referring to one posting that actually state he is relieving a named man, but that was the only one.
Am I allowed to post a scan showing the details of his Statement of Service? If so, I can try and do that if it helps.
It is the earlier postings I'm most interested in. As you say Max, I knew the SAS was in Hythe - my mothers birth place, and the RMC was Sandhurst.
So the Unit was a smaller division of the Batallion? Sorry for the ignorance - as always I should have asked more questions when he was alive☹️
Linda
-
Unit is an umbrella term for any service element really, it gets round the business of having to know whether you are talking about a regiment, a battalion, a squadron and so on. So if he had been asked what unit he was with he would have answered "1st Battalion Northumberland Fusiliers" or "Northumberland Fusiliers" or 1st Battalion (to someone in the NF). It isn't a division of anything.
No problem about posting extracts from his record although as said before, the interwar years are not well documented outside the regiment.
MaxD
-
Okay with the Unit etc. - thanks.
I'm attaching dads record in three parts as they are large files.
Linda
-
Sorry having some issues posting these!
-
Hopefully this works
-
Last one - sorry it seems to be out of order!
-
His career was in two distinct parts. Dec 22 to Feb 31 with the Northumberland Fusiliers, primarily with 1st Battalion except for a couple of spells at the Depot in Newcastle. As I said earlier, the inter war years are not well documented on line so unless someone can be definitive about where they were, I would advise contacting The Fusiliers Museum of Northumberland.
From 31 until discharge in 45 he was in the Small Arms School Corps moving steadily from Corporal via Sergeant Instructor to Company Sergeant Major Instructor then Quartermaster Sergeant Major Instructor finally to the top of the non commissioned ranks as Regimental Sergeant Major Instructor.
I didn't see 7th Battalion in the records you posted? Does this help?
MaxD
-
Thank you, it has helped me confirm what I was guessing at!
I was confused on the Battalion, sorry. He was in the 7 Btn. Durham Light Infantry when he was in the reserves, before joining the regular army. My mistake.
A question or two on his ranks - A/W.O.I, Warrant Officer Instructor? What does the A mean, appointed?
Difference between appointed and promoted?
I presume it was mandatory to leave when he did? Shame, he loved it I think.
I will contact the museum, you never know.
Linda
-
Acting Warrant Officer [Class] One. A first step before substantive promotion
One is appointed to Lance Corporal and promoted to ranks above that, because L Cpl is an appointment not a rank. One is also appointed to a particular position within a rank***. For example, at the rank of Warrant Officer Class One you see he is appointed Sergeant Major Instructor. Later he is appointed Regimental Sergeant Major. Same rank different appointment.
Somewhere you will find the term of years that he signed up for, you haven't posted that bit. He extended in 1929 to complete 12 years and later extended again to complete 21 years. There may be another extension somewhere that I can't see because he did 23 years in total.
MaxD
*** For the purist - this is a subject that merits books being written about it, my answer is intended to be a general response and is meant to prompt further discussion!!
-
Thanks again for the explanation - very complicated to the "outsider"!
I found the terms he signed on for, along with the extension. I didn't find anything to explain the additional two years. Maybe an exception because it was War time?
Linda
-
Could you post the bit showing the ters he signed on for.
MaxD
-
Max:
Sorry I just can't get the file size small enough so I'll write what it says.
Top of his statement of service shows he enlisted for 7 years army service and 5 years reserve service in 1922. In 1929 he extended to complete 12 years with the colours.
Copy of Army Form number B221 dated 4 October 1929 shows he was desirous of extending his Army Service to complete 12 years. It also shows 6 years and 10 months under the service towards engagement column.
I have contacted the museum who are willing to look at his record to see if they can help further.
Linda
-
One or other of his engagements would have had the caveat that said if there was a war on he would have to serve until the end hence serving beyond the 21. Similarly, he may have wanted to stay on after 1945 but as he had already served more than a full term, and the army wanted to reduce anyway now the war was over, he didn't get the chance..
Hopefully the museum can fill in where the 1st Battalion were in the pre-SASC days.
Let us know how you get on.
MaxD
-
A further thought. The SASC is/was one of the smallest corps in the army and as a long term member and as a very senior one when he finished, it might be that the old comrades association may have something in their heritage collections relating to his time. Contact is here: https://www.sasc-pastandpresent.com/
MaxD
-
Thanks Max for the contact of the SASC.
I will let you know. Linda