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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: WillowG on Wednesday 10 October 18 18:12 BST (UK)
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This will cost me (almost) quite literally blood, sweat and tears to find :)
I knew it existed, because it is indexed in this book here:
Index of wills proved in the Prerogative court of Canterbury 1383-1558. And now preserved in the principal Probate registry, Somerset house, London
https://archive.org/details/indexofwillsprov10chur/page/26
(Said indexed entry has also been digitalised by Ancestry here:
Text: 1514 Aylemer, Aymere, Richiard, St. Peter Mancrofte, Norwich 31 Fetiplace
In their: Collection: England: Canterbury - Wills Proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury, 1383-1558 (A-J) (https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=oBL1318&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=ukprobate&gsln=Ayl*mer&cp=0&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&uidh=uho&gss=angs-d&pcat=36&fh=29&h=1702648&recoff=3&fsk=BEFq368IgAAGSgABn-43-E-61-&bsk=&pgoff=&ml_rpos=30))
Using the information in the indexed entry and a painstaking (and painful) look-at-one-image-at-time approach and eventually cheating by finding another will with the same coding that had been transcribed properly and then working forwards and backwards from there again employing the same painstaking (and painful) look-at-one-image-at-time approach, I found it! :)
Ancestry has the name transcribed as Richard Dymore, Probate: 22 Feb 1514
I am fairly certain that this would the same will that the National Archives have here:
Will of Richard Rymere
Reference: PROB 11/17/615
Description: Will of Richard Rymere
Date: 26 February 1515
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D974713
I do believe, however, and I hope that the group will agree with me, that this is our very own Richard Aylmer (d.1512) of Norwich :)
The son of Robert Aylmer (d.1493) of Norwich
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799398.0
And the brother of Thomas Aylmer (d.1500) of Norwich
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800847.0
Going through the two above wills has allowed us to piece together the following family tree:
Robert Aylmer (d.1493), Grocer, Sheriff of Norwich in 1471, Alderman of Norwich in 1480, Mayor of Norwich in 1481 and 1492. He was married to Elizabeth (d.1518). He had two sons, Richard (d.1512) and Thomas (d.1500), and two daughters, Cecile and Elizabeth (d. 15th of September 1493). After his death his widow Elizabeth is involved in a suit with Sir William Knyvett - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Knyvett. At some point after this suit, Elizabeth remarries, to Thomas Thursby.
His son, Richard Aylmer (d.1512), Grocer, Sheriff of Norwich in 1501, Mayor in 1511. Married firstly to Joan, and had by her two sons and two daughters. After Joan's death he remarries again to an unknown second wife and has by her four daughters.
In his will in 1500, Robert's second son and Richard's younger brother Thomas Aylmer mentions a nephew named John Aylmer.
He is of particular interest, since we know that the father of Bishop John Aylmer is said to have been a John.
This John could be one of the two sons that we know Richard Aylmer had, or he could be an illegitimate child of one of his sisters.
Perhaps of Elizabeth, the sister of Richard and Thomas Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September 1493? A month or two after her father, Robert Aylmer, who died in July or August 1493, but who makes no mention of a daughter Elizabeth in his will?
Or of a sister who married someone with the same last name?
My hope is that this last will & testament will tell us more about Richard Aylmer's family, and hopefully give us more information regarding this John Aylmer, who is of great interest to us.
I apologise for the wretched quality of this, which is undoubtedly why it took me so long to find it, and why the name is mistranscribed so abominably ill both at Ancestry and the National Archives.
The full will here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5111/40611_311116-00503/852299?backurl=https%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fsearch%2fdb.aspx%3fdbid%3d5111%26path%3d&ssrc=&backlabel=ReturnBrowsing#?imageId=40611_311116-00500
My only comfort is that the will numbers only one page, and it does get better. A lengthy middle part is of much better quality.
Thank you so much in advance if you feel called to take this on :) :) :)
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As you say Willow. a terrible quality! :(
I have lightened it up a bit via my photograph software, but it can't do anything about the tiny sploged writing!
At least this one is in English and not Latin.
Have made a start - and then I gave up!
In dei nom Amen I Richard Aymere make my testamente and will in my ryghte mynde the yere of our lord
god ? v xjv the xjth daye of Auguste/ Fyrst I bequeth my soule to god Almyghty/ And to oure lady synt mary and to
synt petyr myn A? And to all the holy company of hevyn And my body to be buried in synt Peters churche
by my wyffes sepulcor/And I will have a ? that shall Cover her grave and myn/ And
eve? ??
As you say, hopefully the bit you may be more interested giving family relationships, will be easier to see.
'What a mission', as my daughter would say, to find it.
If family history research has taught us anything, it's perseverance and resilience, and sheer refusal to accept something doesn't exist against all odds. ;)
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As you say Willow. a terrible quality! :(
It's honestly the worst I have ever seen! Why in the world would you hire someone whose only job (I assume) was to copy things ... by hand ... in handwriting ... who has this handwriting? :)
I am so glad that hiring clearly incompetent people was equally in vogue 500 years ago ::)
Our teacher who taught us penmanship would have put him on her Must complete extra exercises-list in a flat second, lololol :)
I have lightened it up a bit via my photograph software, but it can't do anything about the tiny sploged writing!
At least this one is in English and not Latin.
Have made a start - and then I gave up!
In dei nom Amen I Richard Aymere make my testamente and will in my ryghte mynde the yere of our lord
god ? v xjv the xjth daye of Auguste/ Fyrst I bequeth my soule to god Almyghty/ And to oure lady synt mary and to
synt petyr myn A? And to all the holy company of hevyn And my body to be buried in synt Peters churche
by my wyffes sepulcor/And I will ha? a ? that shall Cover her grave and myn/ And
everie?
Oh, but this is wonderful! :) :D :) Thank you so much! Honestly, I don't get how you managed to get that much of the content out of that horrid handwriting!!! I am convinced it must be a gift! :) :) :) (And the result of expertise and skill, obviously! :) )
As you say, hopefully the bit you may be more interested giving family relationships, will be easier to see.
'What a mission', as my daughter would say, to find it.
If family history research has taught us anything, it's perseverance and resilience, and sheer refusal to accept something doesn't exist against all odds. ;)
Never give up, never give in! ;) No, indeed, where would we be if let a little thing like brick walls slow us down? ;D
I am just going to go ahead and post the next two snippets. I do think that the handwriting improves a bit from the fourth snippet on. Perhaps the clerk finally realised that he was in fact living in the 16th century and it was a bit early to start trying to save the rainforest by saving paper by cramming in as many words as possible on a page ::)
I hope this will not deter any brave souls who wish to tackle the missing parts from snippet 2 if they feel so called upon ;)
Thank you again, Goldie, this was utterly wonderful!!! :) :D :) So impressive
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It's honestly the worst I have ever seen!
Perhaps the clerk finally realised that he was in fact living in the 16th century and it was a bit early to start trying to save the rainforest by saving paper by cramming in as many words as possible on a page ::)
Not quite the worst I've seen willow.
I had some Scottish sasines (land deeds) a few years ago.
Now there's something to make you go cross eyed!
I think I read that the scribes did actually have to buy the paper they were writing on, so made a huge effort to write as small as possible with the most spidery writing imaginable to cram in as much as possible on each page. Talk about a nightmare!
All that together with the Scottish dialect, the old Scots language and specific Scottish law terms made for some interesting times! :D
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for theruppon and my children synny...es therupon/ Also I will have one my burying daye a solempue durge
and a masse of requyem And xij poor folk to have gowns of black fryse and they to holde candles or taperes aboute(?)
my heres And they to have eche of them in money iiij d/And ev(er)y prest and ? at my durge iiijd p?es and ij ?
and children jd /Also I will have on my xxxti dayes a solempue durge and masse of requyem praying for my soule
my wyffes soule and all my frendes soules and all cristen soules and xij poor ? to have gownes and money as it is
Infor Wryten/ Also I will have a Comon dole (or ?) to ev(e)ry p(ar)isshe within Norwich And ev(er)y p(ar)ishe (?) that will take
take it jd a pece/ Also I bequeth to the blessed Tr??ter w(i)t(h)in Norwich xxs there to syng a solempur durge and masse
of requyem praying for my soule and also my frendes soules and also Cristen soules /Item I bequeth to the iij orders
of friers within Norwich to ev(er)y order xx s /And they to ? a solempur durge and masse of requyem praying for
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Snippet 1: Test(amentu)m Ric(ardi) Aymere (possibly?)
Snippet 2 line 2: for the year, how about ... mlo vC ix = 1509 ?
Snippet 2 line 4: ... And I will have a stone that shall Cover her grave and myn ...
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Snippet 2 end of line 4 - Snippet 3 line 1
... And oure symylitudes to be
set theruppon And my children(s) symylitud(es) thereupon ...
(= family portraits/effigies to be put on the tombstone?)
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A couple of additions to goldie's work on Snippet #3:
...tapers aboute
my hers And they to have eche of them in money iiijd And ev(er)y prest and Clerkes at my dirige iiijd prestes and ijd Clerkes
And children jd Also I will have on my xxxti daye a solempne dirige...
hers = hearse
...And xij pou(er) men to have gownes...
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A couple of additions to goldie's work on Snippet #4:
...aforr wyten..........and ev(er)y p(er)sone that will take...
...the blessed Trinitie...
...the iiij orders...
...And they to kepe a solempne dirige...
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Here are some Common Pleas cases with Richard Aylmer of Norwich.
Hillary term, 1500, second entry
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H7/CP40no951/aCP40no951fronts/IMG_0896.htm
Norwich. Richard Aylmer, of Norwich, grocer, versus John Castelyn, of Framlyngham Castell, Suff, chapman. Debt of 40 shillings.
Hillary term, 1505, first entry
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H7/CP40no971/aCP40no971fronts/IMG_0751.htm
Norf. William Bettys, of Hetherset, smith, summoned to answer Richard Aylmer, of Norwich, alderman. Debt of 60 shillings.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_1027.htm
Hillary term, 1510, third entry
Norwich. Agnes Bloker, widow of William Bloker, versus Richard Petite, of Norwich, yeoman; and Richard Aylmer, of Norwich, merchant, grocer, alderman. Debt of 15 marks.
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It's honestly the worst I have ever seen!
Perhaps the clerk finally realised that he was in fact living in the 16th century and it was a bit early to start trying to save the rainforest by saving paper by cramming in as many words as possible on a page ::)
Not quite the worst I've seen willow.
I had some Scottish sasines (land deeds) a few years ago.
Now there's something to make you go cross eyed!
I think I read that the scribes did actually have to buy the paper they were writing on, so made a huge effort to write as small as possible with the most spidery writing imaginable to cram in as much as possible on each page. Talk about a nightmare!
Now, what could possibly have gone wrong with that arrangement? (Where is that emoji of the smiley clubbing its own head when you need it? *g*) One can vividly imagine the sort of person who would think that that was a good idea! We have those today as well ::)
All that together with the Scottish dialect, the old Scots language and specific Scottish law terms made for some interesting times! :D
Ah, the joys of figuring out a written dialect not one's own ;D Oy! Or as the Scots would say it: Oiie (... I have no idea how the Scots would say it, lololol) I am so glad I was not the one having to sort that out, with legalese to boot! :)
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Snippet 1: Test(amentu)m Ric(ardi) Aymere (possibly?)
I agree. I can't see an l there either, try as I might.
Snippet 2 line 2: for the year, how about ... mlo vC ix = 1509 ?
That fits perfectly. We know from the other thread that our Richard Aylmer died in 1512.
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Snippet 2 end of line 4 - Snippet 3 line 1
... And oure symylitudes to be
set theruppon And my children(s) symylitud(es) thereupon ...
(= family portraits/effigies to be put on the tombstone?)
I think this must be entirely correct! It plays in perfectly with the below:
The following inscriptions are in the nave; and first of those on brass plates, beginning at the most eastern part, just by the step out of the chancel, lies a large stone, having the effigies of a mayor in his robes, between his two wives; by the first wife are the effigies of her children, two boys and two girls; and by the second four girls; it being placed here in memory of Richard Aylmer, mayor in 1511, son of Robert Aylmer, who was mayor in 1481, and 1492, and Joan his first wife; he died in 1512.
This inscription is printed in Weever's Funeral Monuments, fo. 802, as imperfect, though it is legible at this day:
Aylmer Ricardus Procerum de stipite natus, Is quondam Maior Urbis, iacet hic tumulatus, Hatis cum prima atque suis Consorte Johanna, Moribus ornatus, Bonus omnibus atque benignus, Anno Milleno, D, bind, cum duodeno, Jous semtembris trino, migrabit ob orbe. O bone Christe Thesu, fons bite, spes, Medicina, Votis inclina, te quesumus aure Benigna, Ut sibi sit Requies, bibat terum sine fine.
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/History_of_Norfolk/Volume_4
Thanks to somebody very knowledgable and very excellent on these boards, we even have an translation of the above! :)
Richard Aylmer, born of noble stock, a former Mayor of the city, lies buried here (...) with his first wife Joan; he was adorned with qualities, and was good and kind to all; he departed this realm on the third(?) day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand five hundred and twelve; O good Christ Jesu, source of life, hope and remedy, we beseech you hear our prayers with a kindly ear, so that he may be at rest and may enjoy everlasting life.
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A couple of additions to goldie's work on Snippet #4:
...aforr wyten..........and ev(er)y p(er)sone that will take...
...the blessed Trinitie...
...the iiij orders...
...And they to kepe a solempne dirige...
Oh, excellent! Good catches! :)
I had a problem with locating the Trinity Church of Norwich (I don't think we have searched for that one before!), but I think it must be this one:
Norwich Cathedral - Cathedral Church of the Holy and Undivided Trinity
Norwich Cathedral is an English cathedral located in Norwich, Norfolk, dedicated to the Holy and Undivided Trinity. It is the cathedral church for the Church of England Diocese of Norwich.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwich_Cathedral
I couldn't find an alternative either here:
List of churches in Norwich
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_churches_in_Norwich
Or here:
The Medieval Churches of Norwich
https://norwichmedievalchurches.org/
Richard Aylmer's father Robert Aylmer (d.1512) also mentions a Trinity Church in Norwich in his will:
Item I bequeith to the modre church of the holy trinitie in Norwich xxs to pray for my sowle
But I don't think we searched for it at the time :)
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I took the liberty of assembling what we have so far and got:
Test(amentu)m Ric(ardi) Aymere
In dei nom Amen I Richard Aymere make my testamente and will in my ryghte mynde the yere of our lord
god mlo vC ix [1509] the xjth daye of Auguste/ Fyrst I bequeth my soule to god Almyghty/ And to oure lady synt mary and to
synt petyr myn A? And to all the holy company of hevyn And my body to be buried in synt Peters churche
by my wyffes sepulcor/And I will have a stone that shall Cover her grave and myn/ And oure symylitudes to be
set theruppon And my children(s) symylitud(es) thereupon/ Also I will have one my burying daye a solempue durge
and a masse of requyem And xij poor folk to have gowns of black fryse and they to holde candles or tapers aboute
my hers [hearse] And they to have eche of them in money iiijd /And ev(er)y prest and Clerkes at my dirige iiijd prestes and ijd Clerkes
And children jd Also I will have on my xxxti daye a solempne dirige and masse of requyem praying for my soule
my wyffes soule and all my frendes soules and all cristen soules And xij pou(er) men to have gownes and money as it is
aforr wyten/ Also I will have a Comon dole (or ?) to ev(e)ry p(ar)isshe within Norwich and ev(er)y p(er)sone that will take
take it jd a pece/ Also I bequeth to the blessed Trinitie w(i)t(h)in Norwich xxs there to syng a solempur durge and masse
of requyem praying for my soule and also my frendes soules and also Cristen soules /Item I bequeth to the iiij orders
of friers within Norwich to ev(er)y order xx s /And they to kepe a solempne dirige and masse of requyem praying for
Not bad :) :D :) *whistles*
Thank you so much, all of you!!! This is utterly brilliant! I have no idea how you managed this!!! :) :D :) You are so incredibly good!!! :) :) :) Thank you so much, Goldie, Bookbox and HD, I am utterly in awe!!! :) :D :)
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Here are some Common Pleas cases with Richard Aylmer of Norwich.
Hillary term, 1500, second entry
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H7/CP40no951/aCP40no951fronts/IMG_0896.htm
Norwich. Richard Aylmer, of Norwich, grocer, versus John Castelyn, of Framlyngham Castell, Suff, chapman. Debt of 40 shillings.
Hillary term, 1505, first entry
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H7/CP40no971/aCP40no971fronts/IMG_0751.htm
Norf. William Bettys, of Hetherset, smith, summoned to answer Richard Aylmer, of Norwich, alderman. Debt of 60 shillings.
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/H8/CP40no990/bCP40no990dorses/IMG_1027.htm
Hillary term, 1510, third entry
Norwich. Agnes Bloker, widow of William Bloker, versus Richard Petite, of Norwich, yeoman; and Richard Aylmer, of Norwich, merchant, grocer, alderman. Debt of 15 marks.
Oh, excellent!!! :) These are definitely him!
John Castelyn, of Framlyngham Castell, Suff
Framlingham Castle in Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framlingham_Castle
Framlingham Castle was where Queen Mary I Tudor stayed and collected her forces before successfully marching on London when John, Duke of Northumberland, had given her crown to Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen :)
Framlingham Castle has an almost equal claim to fame in that it features in Ed Sheeran's music video Castle on the Hill :)
1510 [...] Richard Petite, of Norwich, yeoman
I have posted the following before, and I am still not sure if John Aylmer of Tunstall is one of our Aylmers, but I wanted to post it due to the fact that now we have Richard Petite in 1510, and we had Robert Petyte in 1486, both in connection with Aylmers :)
Feoffment
Reference: HD 1538/183/9
Title: Feoffment
Description: 1. Thomas Bernagge, chaplain
John Aylmer of Tunstall
2. George Nycoll of Tadyngton [Tannington]
John Seman sen.
John Gardener of Denyngton [Dennington]
(1) to (2), all their lands and tenements in towns of Wannesden [Wantisden], Chesilford [Chillesford], Butley, Blaxhale [Blaxhall], Tunstall and Rendylysham [Rendlesham]; to hold of chief lords of fees for accustomed services. Witnesses: Edward Rous, esq., Robert Petyte, John Thorn' and many others. Given at Wannesden, 21 May 1 Hen. VII.
Date: 21 May 1486
Held by: Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch, not available at The National Archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/0f25b45f-bf53-44bf-a52d-fa90148a591d
Thank you so much!!! :) :) :)
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John Castelyn, of Framlyngham Castell, Suff
Framlingham Castle in Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framlingham_Castle
Framlingham Castle was where Queen Mary I Tudor stayed and collected her forces before successfully marching on London when John, Duke of Northumberland, had given her crown to Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen :)
Framlingham Castle has an almost equal claim to fame in that it features in Ed Sheeran's music video Castle on the Hill :)
(Going completely off topic now!)
Framlingham Castle is a lovely place to visit, and another of its claims to fame is that my son went down on one knee and proposed marriage to my daughter in law there :D
I'm familiar with many of the Suffolk places mentioned in this thread, having lived there for 30 years. Summer visits are highly recommended; winter ................. not so much :-X
Carol
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Willow, I have just scanned though Snippets 5 and 6. It is all standard stuff - bequests for his soul, his wife's soul, the hospitals, the prisoners, the ankers and ankereses etc.
There's nothing of genealogical interest there and nothing new either.
These early sixteenth century guys can go on in this vein for pages.
My situation is that I'm exhausted after a huge crisis day at my day job and will probably have another similar day tomorrow.
Might we just bypass these snippets until he reaches something of interest?
Keep posting them all in pairs as you have been doing and one of us will scan them, until we find something worth transcribing.
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Keep posting them all in pairs as you have been doing and one of us will scan them, until we find something worth transcribing.
Just interposing briefly to second that good advice.
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Willow, I have just scanned though Snippets 5 and 6. It is all standard stuff - bequests for his soul, his wife's soul, the hospitals, the prisoners, the ankers and ankereses etc.
There's nothing of genealogical interest there and nothing new either.
Might we just bypass these snippets until he reaches something of interest?
Keep posting them all in pairs as you have been doing and one of us will scan them, until we find something worth transcribing.
I'd thought the same thing HD.
Glad you actually posted it! :)
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John Castelyn, of Framlyngham Castell, Suff
Framlingham Castle in Suffolk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framlingham_Castle
Framlingham Castle was where Queen Mary I Tudor stayed and collected her forces before successfully marching on London when John, Duke of Northumberland, had given her crown to Lady Jane Grey, the Nine Days' Queen :)
Framlingham Castle has an almost equal claim to fame in that it features in Ed Sheeran's music video Castle on the Hill :)
(Going completely off topic now!)
Framlingham Castle is a lovely place to visit, and another of its claims to fame is that my son went down on one knee and proposed marriage to my daughter in law there :D
I'm familiar with many of the Suffolk places mentioned in this thread, having lived there for 30 years. Summer visits are highly recommended; winter ................. not so much :-X
Carol
That is so lovely, Carol, I am so glad you decided to share! :)
I would love to go visit it myself!
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Willow, I have just scanned though Snippets 5 and 6. It is all standard stuff - bequests for his soul, his wife's soul, the hospitals, the prisoners, the ankers and ankereses etc.
There's nothing of genealogical interest there and nothing new either.
These early sixteenth century guys can go on in this vein for pages.
My situation is that I'm exhausted after a huge crisis day at my day job and will probably have another similar day tomorrow.
Might we just bypass these snippets until he reaches something of interest?
Keep posting them all in pairs as you have been doing and one of us will scan them, until we find something worth transcribing.
Of course! I am so sorry about the exhausting work day.
You meant two in a pair at a time, right, like this? Let me know if you want me to post it all at once (I have them prepared) instead, divided into two more posts.
Keep posting them all in pairs as you have been doing and one of us will scan them, until we find something worth transcribing.
Just interposing briefly to second that good advice.
Willow, I have just scanned though Snippets 5 and 6. It is all standard stuff - bequests for his soul, his wife's soul, the hospitals, the prisoners, the ankers and ankereses etc.
There's nothing of genealogical interest there and nothing new either.
Might we just bypass these snippets until he reaches something of interest?
Keep posting them all in pairs as you have been doing and one of us will scan them, until we find something worth transcribing.
I'd thought the same thing HD.
Glad you actually posted it! :)
Of course I can do that! *hugs* I thought the writing here was exceptionally painful myself!
Just let me know when you want me to post the next part! (After this there is only four snippets left, thank goodness, one of which is the probate, which I think we'll also go over with a cat's paw in this instance, as the quality is abysmal.)
I agree, let's just extract what we can from this and move on!
So sorry about your day, HD. I so very much hope that in spite of it not appearing so right now that tomorrow will be better.
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More prayers for their souls Willow........
line 5 Snippett 7
Also I bequeth my wyff my place that I dwell in with the rents that long therto for terme of her lyff And
half a yere after And than to remayne to Elyne my doughter she to have it when she com(m)yth to mariage
Snippet 8
in fee symple after the decease of her mother/ Also yf she decease/ than to remayne to Elisabeth my doughter/ And
yf she decease than to remayne to margaret my doughter/ Also I gyve my wyff my two closes with the syke mens
houses and iij Acres of Lande withoute seynt Gyles yates terme of her lyff And after her decease to remayne to
Elisabeth my doughter in ffe symple to gyve and sell/ And yf the said Elisabeth decease or her mother(?) or come not
to mariage /than I will that margaret my doughter have the said Closes with the sykemens houses and the said
iij Acres to her and to her heires for evermore/ Also I bequeth Elyn my doughter v score markes when she is maried
Well, it looks like 'the sick mens houses'................ :)
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Well done, Goldie!!! :) :D :) This is practically a miracle! Thank you so much! :) :-* :)
More prayers for their souls Willow........
These early sixteenth century guys can go on in this vein for pages.
They were more concerned for their souls than our eyesight, that's for sure ... ;D
I am so sorry for inflicting this horrid handwriting on us all!
More prayers for their souls Willow........
line 5 Snippett 7
Also I bequeth my wyff my place that I dwell in with the rents that long therto for terme of her lyff And
half a yere after And than to remayne to Elyne my doughter she to have it when she com(m)yth to mariage
Snippet 8
in fee symple after the decease of her mother/ Also yf she decease/ than to remayne to Elisabeth my doughter/ And
yf she decease than to remayne to margaret my doughter/ Also I gyve my wyff my two closes with the syke mens
houses and iij Acres of Lande withoute seynt Gyles yates terme of her lyff And after her decease to remayne to
Elisabeth my doughter in ffe symple to gyve and sell/ And yf the said Elisabeth decease or her mother(?) or come not
to mariage /than I will that margaret my doughter have the said Closes with the sykemens houses and the said
iij Acres to her and to her heires for evermore/ Also I bequeth Elyn my doughter v score markes when she is maried
Well, it looks like 'the sick mens houses'................ :)
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Three out of six daughters so far! :) (Does quick head math based on the effigy 4 - 2 + 4 = 6. Six daughters and 2 sons in all)
Counts on fingers: Elyne, Elisabeth (after his mother and sister?) and Margaret :)
When I saw the name Elyne I was reminded of the whole Elyse/Olyve thing and my whole life flashed before my eyes ;D But Elyne or Elyn would be what we today would have written as Elaine, right?
On the other hand, based on the effigy
having the effigies of a mayor in his robes, between his two wives; by the first wife are the effigies of her children, two boys and two girls; and by the second four girls; it being placed here in memory of Richard Aylmer, mayor in 1511, son of Robert Aylmer, who was mayor in 1481, and 1492, and Joan his first wife; he died in 1512.
shouldn't he have two wives? I have been paying careful attention, and he only makes reference to one, my wife's, not my wives's, and furthermore, said wife appears to be alive, not to have predeceased him ...
On the other hand, if he did have two wives, and does not mention the first one who predeceased him, that strengthens the supposition that Roger Aylmer too had a first wife that he does not makes referral to in his will ... Not a sentimental bunch, this lot.
'Sick mens houses'!!! Of course these people have sick men's houses on their property ::)
and iij Acres of Lande withoute seynt Gyles yates
I remembered the land outside of Saint Giles' gates from somewhere and look and behold:
From his brother Thomas's will:
my Land with ought seint Gyles yates** be sold be myn executo(u)rs and the money y(er)of*** cum(m)yng be disposid in p(er)formannce of this my testament and last
=====
** without St Giles’ gates (?)
*** thereof
I remember thinking at the time that it was folly to sell prime real estate (I mean, right outside of St. Giles gates like that? Location, location, location), and clearly brother Richard, his executor, agreed :) Of course, he could have sold it to himself.
In the same snippet I also find:
the seke mens houses with the gret close therto p(er)tenyng at west Wyk gate
The sick men's houses again! :)
However, if you look at the full quote:
It(e)m I gefe to John Aylemer my nevy [nephew] the seke mens houses with the gret close therto p(er)teynyng at west Wyk gate to hold to the said John his heir(es) and his assignes for ev(er) more whan he com(m)yth to thage of xxj yer(e)
This precise, specific piece of land was left John Aylmer and his heirs and assignes forever by Thomas Aylmer, his uncle in 1500. Now, in 1509, Richard Aylmer is in possession of it, and leaving it to someone else entirely, his wife, and then his daughter Elizabeth.
A reasonable assumption to make is then that the nephew of Thomas Aylmer, John Aylmer, has passed away by this time.
Since Richard Aylmer is in possession of said land, it is possible that he was John's heir. It is also possible that he was the boy's father. But if John were the illegitimate son of the sister not mentioned in the father's will, Richard could still have a strong claim to the child's inheritance as his uncle ...
We'll see :)
Thank you so much again, Goldie! You have performed an absolute miracle here! :) :D :)
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Snippet 9
or elles at the age of xviij yeres/ Also I bequeath to Elisabeth my doughter v score markes * good and lawfull money of
England when she is maried or when she com(m)yth to the age of xviij yeres/ Item I bequeth to margaret my doughter v score
markes of lawfull money when she is maried or elles when she com(m)yth to the age of xviij yeres / And if any of my doughters
decease or they co(m)me to mariage or to xviij yeres of age I will that the other Sisters lyvyng [ ] then the
seid C marke/ and yf it fortune that two of my doughters decease or they co(m)me to mariage or to the age of xviij yeres
than I will that my doughter that lyveth to mariage or to the age of xviij yeres shalhave no more but CC markes / And yf
* the scribe has missed out the word 'of' here.
Snippet 10
it fortune that all my doughters decease or they com(m)e to mariage or to xviij yere of age/ than I will that it be disposed
for my soule and their soules my frendes soules and Cristen soules / Also I bequeath Elyn my wyff in money and silver
plate and wares to the so(m)me of vj C markes / Also I bequeth my wyff all my stuff of housold / Also I beuqeth ev(er)y sevant
in my house xiij s iiijd Item I lefe? my necys xs/ Item I bequeth to Anngt*(?) my maide xs/ Item I bequeth feyth(?)
my maide xs / Item I bequeth my mother in law a black gowne and a golde ryng to the value of xs And myn
own mother in lyke mind / Also I will myn Executors receve my dettes and paye my dettes/ Also I requyer my
* there's a contraction mark over the end of this - but I've no idea what it might mean!
The writing itself is not so terrible Willow, apart from the fact is it very tiny. It looks to me he might have had an old pen with an unsharp nib, and so the letters become all blotchy and it's hard to see the formation of the letter shapes. Some squiggle could be 'minie', or 'nimei' or any other permutation of those little letters! I know there's a particular term for 'little up and down strokes', but can't remember what it is.
Perhaps he couldn't afford a new quill! :)
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the other Sisters lyvyng [ ] then the
seid C marke/
Suggestion (snippet #9) ...
... the other Susters lyvyng shalhave betwyxt them the
seid C marks
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Well I thought I'd written 'shalhave', but it obviously didn't come through in my post. ??? (I usually take off the snippets, do the transcribing on a Word doc, then post it back again. Saves having to try and move between several pages on the post, and scrolling backwards and forwards on the posted images. Anyway, I've found that works best for me. Not an excuse for missing the word.)
But I would never have got 'betwixt' Bookbox! well done. Makes sense.
I can see it now (of course!) :)
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Snippet #10 suggestions ...
... I bequeth(e) to Annye my maide ...
I think there are 4 minims before the y, so I suppose it could be Amiye or Aimye. I don’t see a contraction - is it the tail of the y in the line above?
last line – own(e) mother in lyke man(er)
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Ah ha! 'minims'. Thanks for solving that one Bookbox. :)
Ok. So no doubt the tail of the 'y' above and not a contraction mark after all.
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I'm pretty sure the first maid is: Annys
Compare the s on Executors in the bottom line or on daughters in #9.
Agree the second maid is: ffeyth
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Williow, thank you for your understanding on Friday.
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The item before the bequest to the first maid is to: my Norys
Nourrice is derived from French and means wet nurse.
The verb is difficult. Best I can do is (maybe): befit
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Williow, thank you for your understanding on Friday.
Of course! I sincerely hope everything is better now. I hate days like that so much myself.
Seriously, you are the ones doing me a favour here. A massive one, at that.
Also, this is supposed to be fun. If something I am doing is making it un-fun, I'd much rather have the chance to rectify that.
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Thank you so much, Goldie, Bookbox and HD!!! :) :D :) I will say it again, you have performed an absolute miracle here!!! I am so unbelievably grateful. I honestly have no idea how you do it! :) :) :)
Snippet 9
or elles at the age of xviij yeres/ Also I bequeath to Elisabeth my doughter v score markes * good and lawfull money of
England when she is maried or when she com(m)yth to the age of xviij yeres/ Item I bequeth to margaret my doughter v score
markes of lawfull money when she is maried or elles when she com(m)yth to the age of xviij yeres / And if any of my doughters
decease or they co(m)me to mariage or to xviij yeres of age I will that the other Sisters lyvyng [ ] then the
seid C marke/ and yf it fortune that two of my doughters decease or they co(m)me to mariage or to the age of xviij yeres
than I will that my doughter that lyveth to mariage or to the age of xviij yeres shalhave no more but CC markes / And yf
* the scribe has missed out the word 'of' here.
Snippet 10
it fortune that all my doughters decease or they com(m)e to mariage or to xviij yere of age/ than I will that it be disposed
for my soule and their soules my frendes soules and Cristen soules / Also I bequeath Elyn my wyff in money and silver
plate and wares to the so(m)me of vj C markes / Also I bequeth my wyff all my stuff of housold / Also I beuqeth ev(er)y sevant
in my house xiij s iiijd Item I lefe? my necys xs/ Item I bequeth to Anngt*(?) my maide xs/ Item I bequeth feyth(?)
my maide xs / Item I bequeth my mother in law a black gowne and a golde ryng to the value of xs And myn
own mother in lyke mind / Also I will myn Executors receve my dettes and paye my dettes/ Also I requyer my
* there's a contraction mark over the end of this - but I've no idea what it might mean!
The writing itself is not so terrible Willow, apart from the fact is it very tiny. It looks to me he might have had an old pen with an unsharp nib, and so the letters become all blotchy and it's hard to see the formation of the letter shapes. Some squiggle could be 'minie', or 'nimei' or any other permutation of those little letters! I know there's a particular term for 'little up and down strokes', but can't remember what it is.
Perhaps he couldn't afford a new quill! :)
Too bad we cannot create a GoFundMe campaign for the past. I think we all might have been willing to chip in a couple of bucks to rectify that situation ;D
Oh! And here we have the name of the second wife! :) Then I am going to make the brilliant deduction that the wife's whose sepulcher he wishes to be buried by, is his deceased first wife Joan (whose name we know from the inscription from previously)
And my body to be buried in synt Peters churche by my wyffes sepulcor
and Elyn, the one he is leaving stuff to, is his second wife, and was still alive when he wrote his will in 1509.
Also I bequeath Elyn my wyff in money and silver plate and wares
Excellent! The family tree is really coming together here!!! :) :) :)
Posting the two very last snippets. *breathes huge sigh of relief*
Like I have mentioned before, unless it contains something ~revolutionary~, I suggest we bypass the probate in silence this time. The writing takes another hit for the worse in it ... ::)
Thank you so much again, Goldie, Bookbox and HD!!! :) :D :) This is utterly wonderful! I am unbelievably thankful for your time and effort.
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About the seke mens houses or the syke mens houses I am wondering if they could have been lepers.
A leper-house, called St. Stephen's hospital, which was formerly inhabited by lepers, lazars, and lame folks; of these houses there were five, at five of the city gates; each was governed by a master, custos or guardian, who before the Dissolution, was always a religious, and officiated daily in the chapel belonging to his house; there was one always at each house, called the foregoer, who used to beg daily for them; few people died heretofore without leaving a legacy "to each leper-house at the five gates, "viz. St. Stephen's or Nedham, St. Giles or Newport, St. Bennet's or Westwick, St. Austin's, St. Mary Magdalen Fybridge, or Five-bridge-gate: and to each of the foregoers there; and anciently, besides these leper-houses, there were hermits dwelling in their cells in all the gates; for in many wills there are legacies to the hermits residing in all the gates at Norwich.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol4/pp145-184
The above quote gives the answer to the anchorites and anchoresses as well :)
Certainly both Robert Aylmer (d.1493) and Thomas Aylmer (d.1500) leave bequests to the lepers residing in the city:
From Robert Aylmer's will of 1493:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799398.0
Item I will that ev(er)y lepere both man and woman beying And dwelling by and without the v yate of Norwich whan myne executours thydre come to visite them have ij d
And
From Thomas Aylmer's will of 1500:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800847.0
It(e)m to ev(er)y Sykeman and woman at iche of the v yates [5 gates] in Norwich ijd
The above quote from An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk, however, does not mention the houses being built on private property. On the other hand, the sources seem to speak very little of the Aylmers at all. That seems to be because they died out in the male line in Norwich.
Also, the property with the sick men's houses seems to have originated with Thomas or was left to him by someone else, his father only left him land in Higham as far as I can see.
Item I will that Thomas my sonne have all my Landes and tenementes in Higham beside Norwich to hold to hym his heires and his assignes for ev(er)more whan he co(m)eth to laufull age under condition that ^he^ be curteis humble and diligent to my wif his modre
On the other hand, Robert Aylmer (d.1493) seems to have owned other land in Norwich that he does not mention specifically in his will:
Item I will that all myn other landes and tenementes in Norwich and in Northfolke be sold by myn executo(r)s And the money therof co(m)myng disposed in paying of my dettes and in p(er)formance of this my testament and last will and in other dedys of mercy for my soule and the soules afore said
Just as with Thomas, it might be that Robert's executors were a smidge more practical and kept said properties in the family, and that the two closes with the sick men's houses were among them ...
Looking up the above quotes I also found this:
It(e)m I Will that my close lying at the gates of west Wyk adioynyng nexte the grounde of Nicholas Appilyard esquier and my Land with ought seint Gyles yates
I did not look into Nicholas Appleyard at the time, assuming that he had been an anonymous farmer, but that was not so :)
Will of Nicholas Appleyard 1513
http://www.wellowgate.co.uk/Appleyard/nicholas.html
His executors were Thomas Lord Howard, Sir John Shelton Knight, Master Edmonde Howard and Thos Appleyarde of London, draper. Posting because they are last names and occupations we keep coming across.
More about the Appleyard family of Norwich in general here:
History of Parliament Page of William Appleyard (d.1419) of Norwich, Hethel and Bracon Ash, Norfolk
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/appleyard-william-1419
William Appleyard (d.1419) of Norwich inherited, from his parents, manors at Intwood, Bracon Ash and Hethel.
From the will of Alexander Aylmer of 1549:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800382.0
Itm I wull that Anne my wyff shall have all my landes and Ten(emen)ts lying in Tyvetshale Saint Margaret in the cowntie of Norff - called Intwoode Batemans
Francoso remarked upon it at the time:
Not sure if this is relevant but "INTWOOD (All Saints), a parish, in the union of Henstead, hundred of Humbleyard, E. division of Norfolk, 3˝ miles (S. W.) from Norwich.
Well, if nothing else, we are becoming quite the experts on medieval Norwich here! :)
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The item before the bequest to the first maid is to: my Norys
Nourrice is derived from French and means wet nurse.
The verb is difficult. Best I can do is (maybe): befit
Awww! :)
He also left bequests to the two maids. That was very nice of him.
Maybe they were a bit sentimental, after all!
We are talking about this part, right?
Item I lefe? my necys xs/
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Snippet #11
... Cofeoffes that they release to my wyff when they be requyred according to my will and I desire them and praye
them therof Also I orden and make myn Executors Elyn my wyff myn owen[?] mother my brother[?] ffrannces mountford
and william here And I gyve ev(er)y of them for their labour iiij li a peece In wytnesse wherof I wryte this will w(i)t(h)
myn owne hande and set therto my seale the daye and yere aboveseid And all the remain(a)nt[?] of my goodes I put to the
disposicion of myn Executors for to do in ded(es) of Charitie the whiche maye be to the pleasure of Almyghty god
(Other opinions on the executors will be particularly welcome.)
Snippet #12 abstract
Proved at Lambeth on 26 February 1514/15 by Elena/Elyn, the relict and executrix, who was sworn; inventory and accounts required; power reserved to the other executors.
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(Other opinions on the executors will be particularly welcome.)
I agree with your reading of his executors.
The only slight change I would suggest to the transcript is: ...accordyng to my will and so desire them...
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We are talking about this part, right?
Item I lefe? my necys xs/
Yes.
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The only slight change I would suggest to the transcript is: ...accordyng to my will and so desire them...
Good call.
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Also I orden and make myn Executors Elyn my wyff myn owen[?] mother my brother[?] ffrannces mountford and william here
(Other opinions on the executors will be particularly welcome.)
I agree with your reading of his executors.
I heartily agree :)
Elyn my wyff is of course Elyn his second wife.
myn owen[?] mother must be Elizabeth Thursby, who we know is still alive at this point as she left her own will in 1518, nine years after Richard Aylmer wrote his will in 1509.
Elizabeth Thursby and his mother-in-law (sadly unnamed) were both also left a black gowne and a golde ryng to the value of xs earlier in the will.
my brother[?] ffrannces mountford - His brother-in-law, Francis Mountford! :) (Yes, the existence of such a person was complete news to me as well!!!)
It appears that Elizabeth Thursby had children in her second marriage, at least three daughters, Margaret, Beatrice and Elizabeth.
Francis Mountford (1474/76-1536) - History of Parliament Page
Francis Mountford married firstly Margaret, daughter of Thomas Thoresby of Lynn, Norfolk.
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/monford-francis-147476-1536
As we remember, the second husband of Elizabeth (d.1518), widow of Robert Aylmer (d.1493) was a Thomas Thursby or Thoresby :)
According to his History of Parliament page Francis Mountford owed much of his success to this marriage to a Thursby:
Francis Monford probably owed his return for Lynn to the first two Parliaments of Henry VIII less to his inheritance of estates some 20 miles from the borough than to his legal qualification and his marriage into the Thoresby family. He and Thomas Gibbon, who was also married to one of Thomas Thoresby’s daughters, were elected on 7 Jan. 1510, during the mayoralty of John Grindell, another Thoresby connexion, and in place of two men chosen five days earlier but excused.
Beatrice was married at least twice.
William Coningsby (by 1483-1540) - History of Parliament Page
m. by 1516, Beatrice, da. of Thomas Thoresby of Lynn, wid. of William Trew (d.1510/12) of Lynn, 1s. 4da.2
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/coningsby-william-1483-1540
Thomas Gibbon (1470/71-1531) - History of Parliament Page
m. (1) by 1507, Elizabeth, da. of Thomas Thoresby of Lynn
https://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/gibbon-%28guybon%29-thomas-147071-1531
Since they are not Aylmers we shall bypass their existence in silence, except to mention that the granddaughter of Francis Mountford and Margaret Thursby, Elizabeth, marries a Geffrey Cobb of Sandringham, presumably the descendant of Sir Laurence Aylmer and his daughter Alice and her husband also named Geffrey Cobb of Sandringha.
Mountford - The Visitations of Norfolk
https://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/200/mode/2up
Also, Margaret, the daughter of Richard Aylmer, mentioned in his will, was presumably named after his half-sister Margaret Thursby, as we have not encounted a Margaret amongst our Aylmers before. It is always so annoying when you have been following a family for a while and 'outsiders' come in with new names :)
Also, their existence heightens the likehood of having found the solution to the last Aylmer mystery in the Visitations of Norfolk :)
That of Margaret, daughter of ... Aylmer of Norfolk, who marries Richard Batiscroft of Bexwell.
They have the children Beatrix, Ellen, Agnes, Thomas, Christopher and John.
I am thinking that Elyn/Elyne/Elena is not what we today would have written as Elaine, as I wrote before, but rather, what we today would have written as Ellen :)
Beatrix after Beatrice Thursby, who would have been the same age as Margaret Aylmer. Ellen, after her mother and sister. Thomas, possibly after her uncle and the brother whose name we do not know? John, after the nephew of Thomas Aylmer who was in all probability also Margaret Aylmer's brother.
Batiscroft - The Visitations of Norfolk
https://archive.org/stream/visitacionievisi32ryew#page/22/search/Aylmer
and william here
William Hare appears to have been a contemporary of Richard Aylmer.
in the 3d of Henry IV. and Julian Norwich, widow, conveyed it in the 30th of Henry VIII. to William Hare, Gent.
WILLIAM HARE of Beeston, Gent. 1545
Alice, daughter of Wayte, relićt of William Hare, Esq; of Beeston
Hare, Audrey, dau. of William Hare, LXXVI. (a bit uncertain if the year fits here ...)
Thank you so so so much, Bookbox and HD!!! :) :D :) This was splendid!!! :) :-* :)