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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: M_ONeill on Friday 12 October 18 17:33 BST (UK)
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Hey all, first time poster to the military board!
I'm currently trying to explain a gap in the children of my 4x great grandparents, William Monk and Elizabeth Handley, of Rock Worcestershire. They marry on the 29th November 1798, in Rock, and then proceed to have a child every couple of years. Then there is a large gap between James Monk (baptised 16th April 1809) and Francis Monk (baptised 2nd July 1815). The couple then have two other children after that.
Now of course there could be other, non-military explanations for the gap (miscarriage, parents moved away for a couple of years, incorrect baptismal info etc), but someone raised the point that military service of some kind could be another reason, given the timeframe, and I was wondering how one would go about even investigating it as a possibility.
I'm completely new to this area of military history, so any pointers in the right direction would be gratefully appreciated!
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There is an entry on the Waterloo medal roll which might be worth following up:
Private Wm MONCK, 2nd Battalion, 35th Regiment of Foot, Captain McNeill's Company.
The 2nd Battalion was in the Netherlands in 1809 and 1813, and at Waterloo in 1815.
Philip
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So I’ve actually found another candidate as well, Pte. William Monk, 66th Regiment of foot, 2nd Battalion. Not jumping to any conclusions, but the dates seem like a good fit.
The battalion embarked for Portugal in April 1809 (same month James Monk was born). for service in the peninsular war. They then fought in Portugal, Spain and France until the battle of Toulouse in April 1814. Which seems to have marked the end of their operations for that campaign
This William Monk is listed in a Muster Roll for December 1814 in Bristol - but I’m not sure exactly what that means.
So the timeline for this soldier seems to fit - is there any way to be more sure?
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I’ve found a record of this William Monk in the Military Campaign and Medal Award Rolls 1793-1949.
It lists six battles sieges for the soldier: Talavera, Albufera, Vittoria, Pyrenees, Nivelle and Orthez.
I don’t know how these award rolls worked for this era, would this be all the battles this soldier fought in, or just some of them?
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The battalion embarked for Portugal in April 1809 (same month James Monk was born). for service in the peninsular war. They then fought in Portugal, Spain and France until the battle of Toulouse in April 1814. Which seems to have marked the end of their operations for that campaign
This William Monk is listed in a Muster Roll for December 1814 in Bristol - but I’m not sure exactly what that means.
Battle of Toulouse was one the final battles of the Napoleonic Wars. Napoleon had actually surrendered a few days earlier. He abdicated and went into exile on the Island of Elba. He left Elba in February 1815 and returned to France. 4 months later he was defeated at The Battle of Waterloo and went into permanent exile.
A muster roll is a register of officers and men in a unit present at a certain point in time in a given location, Bristol Dec. 1814 in the case of William Monk of 2nd Battalion.
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Thanks, MS! I suppose Bristol isn’t that far from Worcestershire via the Severn, though still some journey in 1814!
So it would seem all of these dates fit, except William Monk’s death date. He would have had to have been living in 1848 to apply for and receive the Military General Service Medal, which he seems to have done.
So either I have the wrong death date, or this is a completely unrelated William Monk...
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So I’ve double checked, and the only burial record for a William Monk I can find in Rock is 1844 in the National Burial Index.
So I suppose this could be an unrelated William - though it seems a strange coincidence that the peninsular campaign fits into the gap in my 4x great grandfather’s children so neatly.
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So I’ve double checked, and the only burial record for a William Monk I can find in Rock is 1844 in the National Burial Index.
So I suppose this could be an unrelated William - though it seems a strange coincidence that the peninsular campaign fits into the gap in my 4x great grandfather’s children so neatly.
On the General Register Office index is: death registered Dec qtr 1844 Cleobury Mortimer vol 18 p35 MONK William age 69.
As Rock was in the Cleobury Mortimer registration district I checked for other William MONK deaths with a fuzzysearch from 1837 to 1890, but he was the only one.
Philip
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So I suppose this could be an unrelated William - though it seems a strange coincidence that the peninsular campaign fits into the gap in my 4x great grandfather’s children so neatly.
Not really. An estimated 250,000 men were in British Army in 1813 (according to "British Army during the Napoleonic Wars" on military.wikia) Many of these soldiers were Irish and Scottish of course. As well as regular Army there were militia regiments.
The army was reduced in December 1814, mainly by disbanding 2nd battalions of 22 regiments.
Edit. For comparison I've just searched for one of my ancestors who did military service during Napoleonic Wars in the same years. 20 results for at least 4 different men with his name.
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So I suppose this could be an unrelated William - though it seems a strange coincidence that the peninsular campaign fits into the gap in my 4x great grandfather’s children so neatly.
Not really. An estimated 250,000 men were in British Army in 1813 (according to "British Army during the Napoleonic Wars" on military.wikia) Many of these soldiers were Irish and Scottish of course. As well as regular Army there were militia regiments.
The army was reduced in December 1814, mainly by disbanding 2nd battalions of 22 regiments.
So you’re saying it’s possible that my ancestor also fought in that campaign (or one like it), he just didn’t live to receive the awards? I read that only a small percentage of the soldiers who fought in the napoleonic war ever received the Military General Service medal due to having already passed, or illiteracy.
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So I suppose this could be an unrelated William - though it seems a strange coincidence that the peninsular campaign fits into the gap in my 4x great grandfather’s children so neatly.
Not really. An estimated 250,000 men were in British Army in 1813 (according to "British Army during the Napoleonic Wars" on military.wikia) Many of these soldiers were Irish and Scottish of course. As well as regular Army there were militia regiments.
The army was reduced in December 1814, mainly by disbanding 2nd battalions of 22 regiments.
So you’re saying it’s possible that my ancestor also fought in that campaign (or one like it), he just didn’t live to receive the awards? I read that only a small percentage of the soldiers who fought in the napoleonic war ever received the Military General Service medal due to having already passed, or illiteracy.
It's possible. The medal was for campaigns 1793-1814 so a great many men didn't survive to claim it.
My comment "Not really" refers to your observation about it being a strange coincidence that another, unrelated William Monk would have been serving during those years. I disagree that it was strange. It was merely coincidence. Taking into account the huge number of soldiers in the British Army at the time, an estimated quarter of a million at peak strength, it's not surprising that there was more than one with the same name.
Attestation papers and pension documents usually have next-of-kin.
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Oh I see, I get your meaning now. I was more referring to the dates matching with the absence, rather than the name - but I've since seen quite how many men and regiments were serving from 1808 to 1814 and I suppose it's less strange than I thought :)
I guess I should start researching what my ancestor may have been doing - it seems to be fairly difficult though. Most of the sources I've seen seem to require you at least know the soldier's regiment in order to search them.
I've been trying to see if I can find out if there were any regiments especially recruiting near Rock, but then most of the 'named' regiments apparently recruited nowhere near where their names would suggest.
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I've been trying to see if I can find out if there were any regiments especially recruiting near Rock, but then most of the 'named' regiments apparently recruited nowhere near where their names would suggest.
When I used to watch "Sharpe" tv series I couldn't understand how a Yorkshire lad was serving in a regiment from hundreds of miles away.
Some even recruited in different countries! E.g. English regiments in Ireland.
There were also local militias. Some members of militias went on to join regular army regiments.
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Well I read somewhere that the government added the local names to the regiments basically as an attempt to drive up recruitment - it's PR more than anything!
I've started dipping my toe into the world of Napoleonic War records (Chelsea Pensioner books and the like) and I've realised there's definitely more William Monks serving than the initial few I found. I can tell this is going to be probably quite a hefty research project - it's an entirely new field for me!
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It was only a supposition that William Monk might have done military service.
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Is an occupation for William given on any of his childrens' baptisms?
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So I've only seen either transcripts of baptisms, or have details from lookups rootchatters were kind enough to do for me, so sadly I don't know.
The one record I have of him is as an agricultural labourer in Rock in 1841.
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Then I think it would be worth trying to find images of the parish registers of the baptisms, which often have more detail than the transcriptions.
ADDED: Why not get the 1844 death certificate to see that WIllliam's occupation, abode & informant? Only £6 for a .pdf file from GRO.
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That's a great suggestion, Josey! I had no idea those records were available as PDFs now. I've sent off an order, will let you know what I get back.
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Look forward to hearing....
I had a look at the newspaper archive but it seems Worcestershire papers start 1838. Can't see any likely entry.
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Hey all, first time poster to the military board!
I'm currently trying to explain a gap in the children of my 4x great grandparents, William Monk and Elizabeth Handley, of Rock Worcestershire. They marry on the 29th November 1798, in Rock, and then proceed to have a child every couple of years. Then there is a large gap between James Monk (baptised 16th April 1809) and Francis Monk (baptised 2nd July 1815). The couple then have two other children after that.
Are you relying on transcripts or have you browsed the actual register for Rock. If you are using transcripts sourced from familysearch I have found instances in my trees where the transcribed records are not complete.
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I got the information from a lookup kindly done for me at The Hive library, Worcester 3-4 years ago. They were transcripts in the process of being done by a local historical society.
Sadly I now live abroad, so seeing the registers in person isn't feasible and I don't believe images of them have been put online.
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Your profile does not state where in the world you are located, it does help us when suggesting where to look for records. The film for Rock may be available to view at a family history centre local to you.
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Your profile does not state where in the world you are located, it does help us when suggesting where to look for records. The film for Rock may be available to view at a family history centre local to you.
Whoops, I'd forgotten that I needed to update that info now I'm overseas!
I'm currently living in Germany.
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There may be a LDS family history centre near you that could get the film. :-\ It is a long time since I visited these centres in the UK so don't know what the procedure is nowadays.
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Some googling reveals that the parish records exist on microfilm at the 'Worcestershire County Council History Centre'. I'll drop a lookup request in the Worcs. lookup forum when I'm back at my computer and have all the details to hand.
Besides that, I've been thinking about possible reasons for the gap, as well as military service:
- The obvious: There's no children born between early 1809 and mid 1815, so there is no actual gap.
- The family had moved out of Rock for those years - there may be more children elsewhere.
- William was away in military or naval service from a time no earlier than ~July 1808 to no later than ~Oct 1814,
- William was away from the family, but not in the military or navy. Imprisonment?
- There's a gap in the parish records. Not sure this is likely - the church seems to have been pretty fastidious in its record keeping.
- There's a gap in the transcripts.
I'm sure there's other possibilities I've missed.
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They are also available from the LDS library catalogue
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/189819?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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Oh, that's cool- it seems you can only read the records online at an LDS library, though. I'll need to check if there is one near me.
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So I've continued to chip away at this mystery - Eastbury, the rootschatter who did the original lookup for me, has been kindly looking at the original parish registers for me on Microfilm as his time permits.
So far it appears as if the original local index lookup was correct - Edward Monk was baptised in 1802 and my 3x great grandfather John Monk was baptised in 1805. However, that means the eldest brother William is currently not represented in the Rock parish registers - so he may have been born/baptised elsewhere.
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So I’ve continued Working on this to see if I can find out whether my ancestor did any kind of military service between 1807 and 1814 and I’ve hit a bit of a brick wall. It seems fairly logical to me that William Monk was doing something during the ~6 year gap in his children, but I can’t find out what.
There seem to be plenty of William Monks serving in the military and the navy at about the right time, but I can’t make any firm link between any of them and my ancestor. I’ve also searched prison records and can’t find anything matching him.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to where to go from here, because honestly I’m a bit stuck.
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So having posted the above, I may have found a potential lead while cross referencing records. Isn't that just sod's law? ;D
So William Monk's eldest son (who ended up going by the name William Monckton in Upper Penn, Staffs) had a daughter, Mary Ann Monkton. In the 1851 census she is listed as a visiting housemaid at the house of a Rector who is apparently hosting overnight guests (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802150.0) in Wolverhampton. The assumption is that Mary Ann Monckton is in service to one of the visitors.
One of said visitors is Major Abiathar Hawkes (Retired), formerly of the 39th Regiment of Foot. I looked into the history of the 39th Regiment and discovered that the 2nd Battalion was stationed in Kidderminster in August 1807 - only ~7 miles from where William Monk the elder was living in Rock. Assuming William's last child pre-gap was baptised pretty much as soon as he was born, then a potential departure in August 1807 would fit with the conception.
This is obviously all completely circumstantial but it's the closest I've had to a lead in a long while. Does anyone know if service records of the 39th Regiment survive anywhere?
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Just to add a reply to show that your posts are being read!! Well done for your persistence.
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I've read them too.
Abiathar is a name I've not met before.
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Thanks for the replies! :)
(I was slightly off, James Monk was born in 1809 rather than 1808, but the timeline would still work for the 39th to be at least a potential regiment for William Monk Snr - apparently Worcestershire was one of the recruitment areas given to the 39th.).
@Maiden, I'd never heard of it either. I looked it up, apparently it's one of those *really* obscure biblical names that has long fallen out of fashion.
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So thanks to a kind rootschatter here (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810037.msg6699077) I now have the full list of baptisms for William’s children:
William - 13th May 1798
Mary - 12th May 1800
Edward - 9th October 1802
John - 1st January 1805 (My ancestor)
Thomas - 4th November 1806
James - 16th April 1808
<Gap?>
Francis - 2nd July 1815 (died in infancy)
Joseph - 8th April 1816
George - 7th July 1821 (died at ~1 year old. Mother died in childbirth)
So if William *did* do any form of military service, he had to have been with a Regiment that left England sometime after June/July 1808 at the earliest, and William would have had to have come back by October 1814 at the latest.
Well he may not have been in the military, but those dates line up very, very closely to the Peninsular War...
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One of said visitors is Major Abiathar Hawkes (Retired), formerly of the 39th Regiment of Foot. I looked into the history of the 39th Regiment and discovered that the 2nd Battalion was stationed in Kidderminster in August 1807 - only ~7 miles from where William Monk the elder was living in Rock. Assuming William's last child pre-gap was baptised pretty much as soon as he was born, then a potential departure in August 1807 would fit with the conception.
This is all a bit tenuous - that she might be in the major's service because her father might have been in the army some 40 odd years earlier. I note that her name appears above the major's in the census which strongly suggests to me that she was not in his service.
Abiathar Hawkes was not with the 39th Regiment in 1807. He was with the 21st Light Dragoons around that time per his 1809 marriage announcement. He joined the 39th in 1820.
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Oh I agree, it’s very tenuous! I’ve also looked at the Muster Rolls for the 39th Regiment and there are no William Monks present. It was more of a roll of the dice.
I’m very new to this aspect of family history and I have no idea how I’d narrow down an ancestor’s military service in this era - or equally, how I would discount it as a reason for a gap in children.
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So thanks to a kind rootschatter here (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=810037.msg6699077) I now have the full list of baptisms for William’s children:
William - 13th May 1798
Mary - 12th May 1800
Edward - 9th October 1802
John - 1st January 1805 (My ancestor)
Thomas - 4th November 1806
James - 16th April 1808
<Gap?>
Francis - 2nd July 1815 (died in infancy)
Joseph - 8th April 1816
George - 7th July 1821 (died at ~1 year old. Mother died in childbirth)
So if William *did* do any form of military service, he had to have been with a Regiment that left England sometime after June/July 1808 at the earliest, and William would have had to have come back by October 1814 at the latest.
Baptisms of Francis (2nd July 1815) and Joseph (8th April 1816) were very close together. If these dates are correct and they were definitely sons of same parents, I surmise that Francis was born some time before July 1815. Alternatively, Joseph may have been premature. If the latter was true, his chances of survival would have been less. I may have mentioned this on another thread about the family.
I have no knowledge of contemporary statistics in reproduction. However, I imagine that a woman who had 9 live births may have experienced a miscarriage or 2. Having said that, I have 2 ancestors who each had 13 live births and another who had 10 at same time as Mr & Mrs Monk. Timing of my ancestors' confinements were regular until the later children of each marriage.
Why would William have had to leave after June 1808? He didn't need to be present for the birth of baby James. No paternal leave in those days - mothers just got on with it, with help of female relatives, friends & neighbours. :)
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Hmm, that's a good point about the two births being close - Joseph did survive to adulthood, but he died very young in 1839 (23), cause of death was listed as 'dropsy'. I suppose it's possible that he had some kind of congenital defect as a result of a premature birth, but I guess that's something we can never know.
As for Francis, I had thought I had a death record for him, but I can't seem to find it. I know I haven't found him in any later census record. I'll double check on his death. If he was born earlier, then I guess that might preclude any serious military service for William.
EDIT: Aha, found the reference in England, Select Births and Christenings, 1538-1975. Francis' death date is listed as 9th September 1815.
Ah, the date of July 1808 was a mis-typing, I meant 1807. Though that was assuming he would be baptised pretty soon after being born. If he wasn't, then trying to count backwards is pretty pointless.