RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: gnorman on Sunday 14 October 18 14:28 BST (UK)
-
Hi, I have some info for a relative, Thomas Thomas born 1851 in Manchester. I've been helped to find prison records for 1874-1878 which lists him as being married with one child. I know he has a further child Emily Thomas in 1880 and that by 1901 his wife is getting remarried and is listed as being widowed. If I am correct Thomas' father is called Owen and Thomas was a Carter or an Outside worker (as listed on his daughters wedding certificate). I'm fairly certain the mothers maiden name was Margaret Mattison and I can only find one possible other birth for a Mary Ellen Thomas with the same mothers maiden name in 1873.
I'm just looking to see if anyone can help me confirm Mary Ellen as the correct child and possibly Thomas' date of death (I may have asked this before but I have memory issues and cant find this in any of my paperwork).
Many thanks, Luke
-
1881 has Thomas Thomas born c1842 Harpurhey
RG11/4081 f44 p3
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q275-MQTK
THOMAS, EMILY mmn MATTISON
1881 March Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 669
-
There are these details from Lancashsire BMD, a number of Thomas births with mmn Mattison
marriage
MATTISON Margaret
THOMAS Thomas
1872 Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church)
birth's
1873 St George Mary Ellen Thomas mmn Mattison
1873 Great Crosby William Thomas mmn Mattison
1875 Great Crosby Florence May Thomas mmn Mattison
1877 Great Crosby Ernest Edward Thomas mmn Mattison
1879 Great Crosby Ada Thomas mmn Mattison
1879 Great Crosby Frederick George Thomas mmn Mattison
1880 Oldham Emily Thomas mmn Mattison
1880 Great Crosby William Mackenzie Thomas mmn Mattison
1882 Great Crosby Lily Thomas mmn Mattison
Edited for info.
there's another Thomas / Mattison marriage, the birth entries of children above in sub district of Great Crosby could be the children of Frederick George Thomas & Elizabeth
THOMAS Frederick G
MATTISON Elizabeth
1869 Walton, St. Mary Liverpool
-
I know he has a further child Emily Thomas in 1880 and that by 1901 his wife is getting remarried and is listed as being widowed.
Could you please you give further details of his wife
on 1901 censuses and whom/when did she remarry?
Edit
Do you know the whereabouts of Margaret, Mary Ellen or Emily Thomas in 1891?
If I am correct Thomas' father is called Owen and Thomas was a Carter or an Outside worker (as listed on his daughters wedding certificate).
I'm fairly certain the mothers maiden name was Margaret Mattison and I can only find one possible other birth for a Mary Ellen Thomas with the same mothers maiden name in 1873.
I'm just looking to see if anyone can help me confirm Mary Ellen as the correct child
I assume you are referring Mary Ellen's marriage and not Emily's?
When/who did she marry?
Does it indicate if her father Thomas is deceased?
Who witnessed the marriage?
-
Thanks guys, I didn't have the census. I don't have an 1891 Census for any of the family and didnt know even the name of Mary Ellen until today.
My great grandma is Emily; she married William Jones in 1900 in Oldham. William died in WWI and in 1917 married Robert Jones (no relation to William) - on this second marriage certificate the brides father is listed as deceased. I have Emily on the 1901 Census and beyond.
Margaret married Lot Butterworth and died in 1920. She is now buried with her daughter Emily in Oldham. On the 1901 Census she is living in Oldham with Lot and James Butterworth, Lot's son.
I really appreciate all this help, thank you!
-
Margaret married Lot Butterworth and died in 1920.
She is now buried with her daughter Emily in Oldham.
On the 1901 Census she is living in Oldham with Lot and James Butterworth, Lot's son.
Is this the correct 1901 census?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9G9-C5F
Lot Butterworth Head 37 Oldham, Lancashire
Margaret A Butterworth Wife 38 Bradford, Yorkshire
James Butterworth Son 6 Oldham, Lancashire
Was Lot Butterworth's first wife also named Margaret?
1894 marriage Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended
BUTTERWORTH Lot
MULHALL Margaret A
25 Nov 1894 St Patrick, Oldham, Lancashire
Jacobus Butterworth - filius Lot Butterworth & Margaritae (formerly Mulhall)
Born: 3 Nov 1894, Godparents: Helena Doran
1902 death Oldham Margaret Ann Butterworth age 38
1906 marriage Oldham Register Office or Registrar Attended
BUTTERWORTH Lot MASTERSON Margaret
BUTTERWORTH Lot THOMAS Margaret
1911 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X4M9-S4G
Lot Butterworth Head 47 Oldham, Lancashire
Margaret Butterworth Wife 59 Resident, County Dublin
James Butterworth Son 16 Oldham, Lancashire
-
To add to the 1911 entry - Lot and Margaret are said to have been married for 4 years, 1 child still living.
-
I don't have an 1891 Census for any of the family and didnt know even the name of Mary Ellen until today.
This looks to be Thomas Thomas on 1891 census with wife and daughter, Margaret born Dublin
Thomas Thomas Head Male 39 Lancashire, occ. carter
Maggie Thomas Wife Female 32 Ireland Dublin
Emily Thomas Daughter Female 10 Lancashire
RG12;Piece/Folio: 3312/ 69 / 54
Jackson Street Oldham
Edited
I wonder if their dau Mary Ellen Thomas (mmn Mattison) died and that’s why she’s not on 1891 census with her parents & sister
THOMAS, MARY ELLEN age 17 (born c 1873)
GRO Reference: 1890 D Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 567
In case you were not aware an online pdf version of birth and death cert. which costs £6 can be ordered from GRO
-
1881 has Thomas Thomas born c1842 Harpurhey
RG11/4081 f44 p3
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q275-MQTK
THOMAS, EMILY mmn MATTISON
1881 March Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 669
Could this be the same Thomas, his occ Carter (1881c)
don't know if he's married edited - noted as 'M' on original, so married
his pob same but the year is out ???
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9LH-X72
Thomas Thomas age 50 Harpurhey, Lancashire
Residence Note Shaw Road, Oldham
Occupation RAILWAY CARTER
Relationship to Head of Household Lodger
Schedule Type 105 Page Number 14
Edit
Thomas Thomas born 1851 in Manchester.
I've been helped to find prison records for 1874-1878 which lists him as being married with one child.
I know he has a further child Emily Thomas in 1880 and that by 1901 his wife is getting remarried and is listed as being widowed.
If I am correct Thomas' father is called Owen and
Thomas was a Carter or an Outside worker (as listed on his daughters wedding certificate).
I'm fairly certain the mothers maiden name was Margaret Mattison and
I can only find one possible other birth for a Mary Ellen Thomas with the same mothers maiden name in 1873.
To help others here's the marriage detail of
Thomas Thomas to Margaret Mattison
and
Emily Thomas to William Jones
6th April 1872 The Cath. Parish Church Manchester
Thomas Thomas 20 , occ. Calenderer, father Owen, occ. maker up
81 Husband Street
Margaret Mattison 20, father John, carter
54 Haydon St Queens Road
Thomas signed Margaret made her mark (x)
Witnesses were John (H/Marland & Mary Ashton (x) her mark
9th June 1900 St James’ Church Oldham
William Jones 20, piecer father David engineer
18 Wallace St
Emily Thomas 19, ring piecer father Thomas, occ out side worker
4 Modlock Passage
both signed
witnesses John Joseph Carter & Eliza Emma Belshaw
-
Ladyhawk, I didn't have any information on Lot's first wife but everything here seems to fit. I did not have any of that census information and will order the death certificate for Mary Ellen Thomas tonight.
All of the later information about the marriage of Tom Thomas and Margaret matches with what I have (though I was unsure at first as he is listed as a Calenderer; my logic now is that perhaps he took over from his father in law who is listed as a carter on the marriage certificate).
I'm not sure about the 1901 census for Tom Thomas; that would make him alive and well and Margaret a bigamist as shes listed herself as a Widow but I know that did happen sometimes didnt it and I can not see a death that matches him anywhere.
Thank you all for your help; another treasure trove delivered by the Rootschatter : )
-
I did not have any of that census information and will order the death certificate for Mary Ellen Thomas tonight.
All of the later information about the marriage of Tom Thomas and Margaret matches with what I have (though I was unsure at first as he is listed as a Calenderer; my logic now is that perhaps he took over from his father in law who is listed as a carter on the marriage certificate).
I'm not sure about the 1901 census for Tom Thomas; that would make him alive and well and Margaret a bigamist as shes listed herself as a Widow but I know that did happen sometimes didnt it and I can not see a death that matches him anywhere.
Please come back and let us know how you get on with Mary’s d/c.
Margaret Thomas didn't marry Lot Butterworth until 1906 .
Have you found Margaret Thomas on 1901 census noted as a widow?
Could this be a possibility
Death Jun 1905 Thomas Thomas age 53 Oldham 8d 461
-
Hi, I received Mary Ellen Thomas' death certificate today;
Mary Ellen Thomas aged 17 of 30 Jackson Street Oldham, died October 19th 1890, Occupation: Cotton reeler, daughter of Thomas Thomas. Cause of Death Heart Disease. Reported by Margaret Thomas of 30 Jackson Street. Reported on 30th October 1890.
The correct Mary Ellen - thank you all for this great success in bringing Mary's story back in to the light. I've been trying to check the Oldham Cemeteries online but so far I cannot find her burial.
I have sent for the death certificate you pointed out for Thomas Thomas Ladyhawk, I'll let you know when it comes in.
Thank you all!
-
Hi, I received Mary Ellen Thomas' death certificate today;
Mary Ellen Thomas aged 17 of 30 Jackson Street Oldham, died October 19th 1890, Occupation: Cotton reeler, daughter of Thomas Thomas.
Cause of Death Heart Disease.
Reported by Margaret Thomas of 30 Jackson Street.
Reported on 30th October 1890.
The correct Mary Ellen - thank you all for this great success in bringing Mary's story back in to the light.
Thank you for letting us know and glad that it was the correct death certificate for their daughter Mary Ellen. 1891 census (posted) Thomas, Margaret & dau Emily Thomas were living in Jackson Street.
I've been trying to check the Oldham Cemeteries online but so far I cannot find her burial.
I think I've found her burial
B/C Number 30060
Burial Date 01/11/1890
Mary E Thomas Age 17 Years
Address 3 Jackson St; Oldham
Cemetery Greenacres
Section B4
Grave 177
I wonder if this is the burial details for the death entry 1905 for Thomas Thomas I posted
B/C Number 4756
Burial Date 29/06/1905
Thomas Thomas Age 53 Years
Address Boston St; Oldham
Cemetery Hollinwood
Section K14
Grave 167
I searched here http://apps1.oldham.gov.uk/bacasweb/GenSearch.aspx
-
I'm wondering if they had another daughter and she died in infancy
THOMAS, MARGARET mmn MATTINSON
1877 J Quarter in OLDHAM Volume 08D Page 696
B/C Number 13853
Burial Date 03/05/1877
Margaret Thomas age 1 month
Address 1 Jackson St; Oldham
Cemetery Greenacres
Section K1
Grave 31
Edit:- a possibility for Thomas' wife Margaret (nee Mattison)
B/C Number 64665
Burial Date 23/12/1920
Margaret Butterworth age 69
Address 8 Robson St; Oldham
Cemetery Greenacres
Section H1b
Grave 98 (by clicking on grave number it gives further info. as follows)
Greenacres H1b 98 23/12/1920 1 Margaret Butterworth
Greenacres H1b 98 29/01/1924 2 Albert Jones
Greenacres H1b 98 13/11/1926 3 Harry Butterworth
Greenacres H1b 98 14/05/1947 4 Robert Jones
Greenacres H1b 98 24/02/1949 5 Emily Jones
(all Jones' have same address possibly Margaret's daughter Emily's age at death 68 (born c1880) - and Emily had a son named Albert and remarried a Robert Jones - you would need to double check)
-
Thank you Ladyhawk, i'm going to try the local records centre to see if i can locate any gravestone and to see who is buried alongside them. There cant be many Thomas Mattison births in Oldham can there? I'll order the certificate on payday to be certain.
On Mary Ellen's death certificate I thought cotton reeler may be her occupation as she was 17?
Really appreciate this help. Thanks x
-
On Mary Ellen's death certificate I thought cotton reeler may be her occupation as she was 17?
Yes that would be correct ::) have edited my post to delete
-
Ladyhawk, the grave for Margaret is correct, I already had this information. Robert and Emily were my great grandparents and Albert was their son. I dont know exactly who Harry was.
My grandad and mother were also born at 8 Robson street but sadly the house no longer exists.
Can the other graves be checked the same way to tell us who else is buried beside Mary, young Margaret and Thomas? If not i've been advised to plan a trip to Hollinwoid Crematorium to have a look there x
-
Ladyhawk I've spoken to the records office and both Mary Ellen and Thomas Thomas are buried in public graves which i'm guessing means they couldnt afford to pay for the burials themselves sadly.
-
have you tried this area of family search
https://www.familysearch.org/search/image/index#uri=https%3A//familysearch.org/records/collection/1482833/waypoints
-
Can the other graves be checked the same way to tell us who else is buried beside Mary, young Margaret and Thomas?
If not i've been advised to plan a trip to Hollinwoid Crematorium to have a look there x
I'm sending you a PM with the details rather than post all the other names here - they don't appear to be related
Edit
PM has been sent with all the names listed with Thomas, Mary & Margaret
hope you find it helpful :)
-
the grave for Margaret is correct, I already had this information.
Robert and Emily were my great grandparents and Albert was their son.
I dont know exactly who Harry was.
Harry was aged 9 weeks and has a different address to Margaret Butterworth & the Jones'
his address 105 Coalshaw Green Rd;Chadderton
Looking at FreeBMD this is probably his birth/death entry
Births Sep 1926 Oldham 8d 1280
Harry BUTTERWORTH mmn Johnson
Deaths Dec 1926 Oldham 8d 1077
Harry Butterworth age 0
Edit
for information don't know if it's related or not the death of
Thomas Thomas in 1905 his address was Boston Street Oldham
Margaret Thomas married Lot Butterworth in 1906
Lot's address on burial 11 Boston Street , Oldham
Cemetery Section Grave date position name address
Hollinwood E13 86 20/04/1918 6 Lot Butterworth 11 Boston St;Oldham
Age 56 years
-
Really quick response from GRO for Thomas Thomas death certificate is as follows;
Date and Place of Death: 24th June 1905, (cant read this word) Lane Mill Yard, Higginshaw, Royton
Name: Thomas Thomas Age and Sex: 53 years, male
Occupation: Out door labourer of 175 Shaw Road, Oldham
Informant Name: Certificate received from F.H Molesworth, Coroner for Lancashire, Inquest held 27th June 1905. Date of Registration: 27th June 1905
Causes of Death: 1. Died from injuries to the body caused by being accidentally run over by a (cant read the next word) lorry laden with cotton. Lived 5 minutes.
The address is different from the grave record. I've been in the past to look up Boston Street Electors roll but there is in record for the street after 1895. Perhaps the accident was in the paper - it may say his next of kin perhaps. The certificate also does not mention him being a carter at all.
-
Hello,
Just for information
175 Shaw Road was a lodging house and Thomas Thomas, 50 yrs was a Railway Carter in 1901 census.
Heywood
-
Really quick response from GRO for Thomas Thomas death certificate is as follows;
Date and Place of Death: 24th June 1905, (cant read this word) Lane Mill Yard, Higginshaw, Royton
Name: Thomas Thomas Age and Sex: 53 years, male
Occupation: Out door labourer of 175 Shaw Road, Oldham
Informant Name: Certificate received from F.H Molesworth, Coroner for Lancashire,
Inquest held 27th June 1905. Date of Registration: 27th June 1905
Causes of Death: 1. Died from injuries to the body caused by being accidentally run over by a (cant read the next word) lorry laden with cotton. Lived 5 minutes.
The address is different from the grave record.
I've been in the past to look up Boston Street Electors roll but there is in record for the street after 1895.
Perhaps the accident was in the paper - it may say his next of kin perhaps.
The certificate also does not mention him being a carter at all.
Emily's father Thomas' occupation on her 1900 m/c was an out side worker
I rechecked the burial just in case I'd made a mistake but it does say address
Boston Street Oldham, Thomas burial 29th June 1905, Thomas 53 years old
As there was an inquest perhaps it's mentioned in the papers
Just for information
175 Shaw Road was a lodging house and Thomas Thomas, 50 yrs was a Railway Carter in 1901 census.
Thanks for giving the number of the house 1901 census posted earlier on thread
1901 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9LH-X72
Thomas Thomas age 50 Harpurhey, Lancashire
Residence Note Shaw Road, Oldham
Occupation RAILWAY CARTER
Relationship to Head of Household Lodger
Schedule Type 105 Page Number 14
-
I've got this record now, it seems to fill in all the gaps; it confirms this is the correct Tom Thomas and clears up the carter question. It is a sad story but it's good to at least be aware of it. Thank you all for your help!
Oldham Chronicle, 27th June 1905
THE MILL FATALITY AT HEYSIDE – INQUEST AND VERDICT
Today (Tuesday) Mr F N Molesworth, district county coroner, held an inquest at the Lancashire Hotel Heyside on Thomas Thomas, a Welshman, who was killed at the Moss Lane Spinning Company on Saturday morning. Margaret Thomas, 16 Boston Street, off Ashton Road, identified the body as that of her husband who she said was 53 years of age and was an out-door labourer with some slight knowledge of carting. William Dawson 14 years of age, son of Edward Dawson, carrier, Henthorne street, Oldham, said that he and deceased went to the Moss Lane Mill on Saturday morning in charge of two horses and a lorry laiden with fifteen bales of cotton. When they reached the factory he told Thomas not to take the lorry further until witness had been to see the warehouseman and came back again. Deceased replied that he could get round the boiler house all right. When witness came back he found deceased had not taken a big enough round and had been pinched between the lorry and the wall which caused his death. Deceased was quite sober. If he had waited until witness came back the accident would not have occurred. John James Len, cardroom operative at Moss Lane Mill said the horse swerved and knocked deceased down. When he went up to him he died in his arms. P.C Jones stated that there were bruises on the neck and chin and a mark across the chest where a wheel of the lorry had passed over. A verdict of ‘Accidental Death’ was recorded. Mr Crabtree, factory inspector was present as was also Mr Wm ??? Managing Directorof the Moss Lane Spinning Company. The coroner complimented the witness Dawson on the smart manner in which he had given his evidence.