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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: orderofthecarter on Sunday 14 October 18 15:59 BST (UK)
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By Order Of The Carter.
Long time researching the Carter family tree,
really need help on what happened to two key people, that vanished,
Have confirmed they existed, including Births and census records, address, even a born child,the child has full records , onwards to marriage, children work, death etc
no death records. no divorce, nothing with census or other government records, nothing so far with church / parish records, nothing overseas or military, courts,
names of key importance,
JOSEPH MANNERS male born approx 1854 no trace
MARTHA CARTER female born 1861 no trace
areas, BITTON WARMLEY HINTON BEACH GLOUCESTERSHIRE
they both had a child, which was raised by the grand parents, traced,
these two people are ancestors of mine, and are a very important part of My research, they really are key individuals,
any information would be appreciated, no matter how big or small,
researched all known family tree websites
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they both had a child, which was raised by the grand parents, traced,
Could you please give name of child and where/when born.
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There is a marriage of a Martha Manners -
q4 1886 Bristol
Vol 6a Page 135
On the same page is George Francis Webb.
1891 -
George Webb 32
Martha Webb 30 b. Beath, Gloucestershire
Betsey Webb 4
George Webb 2
RG12 Piece 1986 Folio 62 Page 21
Same family on the 1901 -
George Webb 42
Mary Webb 41
George Webb 12
Elsie Webb 8
Emily Webb 2
William Carter brother in law 23
Millicent M Carter 26
William Carter 3 Months
RG13 Piece 4945 Folio 83 Page 22
JJ
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Hello, thank you for your reply,
the childs name / details
WILLIAM ISAAC CARTER (not Isaac william)
dob sept 1879 in Bitton Gloucestershire
dod sept 1952 Pontypridd. Wales.
Grandparents lived at Beach Farm, Bitton
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There is a death of a Joseph Manners Qtr June 1924 Dist. Bristol Vol 6a Page 164 that looks a good fit.
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JOSEPH MANNERS male born approx 1854 no trace
Is this the correct Joseph Manners age 17 Hinton Gloucestershire with his grandmother
Phebe Fleming on 1871 census?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5YX-1FY
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There is a death of a Joseph Manners Qtr June 1924 Dist. Bristol Vol 6a Page 164 that looks a good fit.
Thank you for your reply,
This person looks like a match,I also found, but I have 4 more matches with the same name details, its a real ache, been going round in circles for years with this one,
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JOSEPH MANNERS male born approx 1854 no trace
Is this the correct Joseph Manners age 17 Hinton Gloucestershire with his grandmother
Phebe Fleming on 1871 census?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5YX-1FY
Hi, thank you for your response,
Yes and no, I have found 2 people with matching details, both born at a similar date in Hinton, researched both family lines, but not conclusive on which one,
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Where does the information that Joseph Manners is the father of William Isaac come from. Does that record give anymore information on Joseph Manners
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Presumably you have this certificate, what information does it give for Joseph and his father. Who were the witnesses
Martha Carter
Joseph Manners
06 Oct 1879
Place Bitton, St Mary
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Where does the information that Joseph Manners is the father of William Isaac come from. Does that record give anymore information on Joseph Manners
Hi Rosie,
I bought the birth certificate and it states MARTA CARTER mother and Father Not Known,
Church Baptism states Martha Carter Mother and Joseph Manners as Father,
Church Parish records states also Joseph Manners as Father
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Maybe :-\
Attestation
Joseph Manners
Birth year c 1854
Birth parish Hinton, Somerset
Attestation date 07 Jun 1888
Attestation age 34yrs 8 months
Attestation number 2211
3rd Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment
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1881 has a married Joseph Manners age 26 occ Gardener bn Hinton lodging with John & Sarah Manners. RG11 / 2445 f74 p10
1891 possibly in Keynsham RG12/1942 f112 p19 - bn Hinton -wife Lilly Rose and daughter Beatrice (bn Eastville). Still with Lilly in 1911
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Daughter Beatrice
Marriage June qtr 1905
Manners Francis Beatrice A M
Wilkins Jesse
Bristol 6a 373
Births Jun qtr 1886
MANNERS Frances Beatrice -Mothers maiden surname Blackmore
Barton R. 6a 19
Marriages Sep 1890
Manners Joseph
Blackmore Lilly Rose Barton R. 6a 265
ADDED
Deaths Jun 1919
MANNERS Lilly R age 55
Bristol 6a 192
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Maybe :-\
Attestation
Joseph Manners
Birth year c 1854
Birth parish Hinton, Somerset
Attestation date 07 Jun 1888
Attestation age 34yrs 8 months
Attestation number 2211
3rd Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment
Thank you for your response,
Yes this is of interest, of which I am currently researching,
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1881 has a married Joseph Manners age 26 occ Gardener bn Hinton lodging with John & Sarah Manners. RG11 / 2445 f74 p10
1891 possibly in Keynsham RG12/1942 f112 p19 - bn Hinton -wife Lilly Rose and daughter Beatrice (bn Eastville). Still with Lilly in 1911
Hi,
Yes I have also found this, but not sure, desperately trying to find a link somewhere in history, that confirms the research,
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Daughter Beatrice
Marriage June qtr 1905
Manners Francis Beatrice A M
Wilkins Jesse
Bristol 6a 373
Births Jun qtr 1886
MANNERS Frances Beatrice -Mothers maiden surname Blackmore
Barton R. 6a 19
Marriages Sep 1890
Manners Joseph
Blackmore Lilly Rose Barton R. 6a 265
ADDED
Deaths Jun 1919
MANNERS Lilly R age 55
Bristol 6a 192
Beatrice Alice Matilda Manners Christening 06 Jan 1892 Downend, Gloucester
Father's Name Joseph Manners Mother's Name Lily Rose
15 Sep 1890 Bristol, Horfield, Gloucestershire
Joseph Manners single father Manners
Lilly Rose Blackmore single father William Blackmore
possible death entry
Joseph Manners age 70 (1854)
1924 Apr-May-Jun Bristol Gloucestershire
Volume 6A Page 164
details from family search
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Presumably you have this certificate, what information does it give for Joseph and his father. Who were the witnesses
Martha Carter
Joseph Manners
06 Oct 1879
Place Bitton, St Mary
Hi, firstly thank you for your help. I really appreciate it,
The Birth certificate, I have bought, shows the mother as MARTHA CARTER, son William Isaac Carter, father unknown,
church / parish registers shows the mother as MARTHA CARTER now this is what throws my research, shows the father as JOSEPH MANNERS CARTER,
the baptism also shows the both these names,
all dates match, and address etc, and I have no doubts about the mothers and sons name,
the son is in fact my great great grandfather, William Isaac Carter,
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family search has this
England, Bristol Parish Registers
Isaac William Carter
Event Type Christening
Event Date 07 Sep 1879
Event Place Bitton, St Mary, Gloucestershire, England
Father's Name Joseph Marners Carter
Mother's Name Martha Carter
GRO indexes have this birth entry - mmn left blank
CARTER, ISAAC WILLIAM -
1879 S Quarter in KEYNSHAM Volume 05C Page 640
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further information,
Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,
Martha Carter and Her parents and son appeared in the 1881 UK Census on 3 Apr 1881 at Beach Farm Lane in Bitton (Gloucs), Keynsham, Gloucestershire, England.
in 1882 Her son and parents were at the address but Martha was not recorded as living there, and no tracability with that name since, also with work records etc, nothing,
a school enrolment for the son William Isaac, shows that the grandparents had stated they were the parents,
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Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,
Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO
From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879
CARTER Martha
MANNERS Joseph
Keynsham reg district 5c 1045
ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index - Archive Bristol for that marriage
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family search has this
England, Bristol Parish Registers
Isaac William Carter
Event Type Christening
Event Date 07 Sep 1879
Event Place Bitton, St Mary, Gloucestershire, England
Father's Name Joseph Marners Carter
Mother's Name Martha Carter
GRO indexes have this birth entry - mmn left blank
CARTER, ISAAC WILLIAM -
1879 S Quarter in KEYNSHAM Volume 05C Page 640
Hello, and thank you for your reply,
Yes this information is a key towards a problem in My research history,
I have this record and more, and this is the start of a stumbling block,
the christening date is the same,
names,
William Isaac Carter I also have in the same church a few weeks apart Isaac William Carter,
similar dob.
same mothers name MARTHA CARTER.
different fathers name, JOSEPH MARNERS CARTER and JOSEPH MANNERS
are these the same people, was there an error in the Church records, I have asked all relevant sources and nothing has been confirmed, even after all these years of research,
I was unable to purchase a copy of the official record,
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Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,
Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO
From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879
CARTER Martha
MANNERS Joseph
Keynsham reg district 5c 1045
ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index - Archive Bristol for that marriage
Hi Yes, I have a large part of my tree on FindMyPast,
a reference towards the marriage with details shows , however when contacting the records office to purchase a copy, no records was found,
also no divorce records found,
also the marriage index show Martha Carter and Joseph Manners married in 1879,
however Martha as showing on the 1881 census as living at her parents home with her son, and still named Carter
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Martha Carter and Her parents and son appeared in the 1881 UK Census on 3 Apr 1881 at Beach Farm Lane in Bitton (Gloucs), Keynsham, Gloucestershire, England.
in 1882 Her son and parents were at the address but Martha was not recorded as living there, and no tracability with that name since, also with work records etc, nothing,
a school enrolment for the son William Isaac, shows that the grandparents had stated they were the parents,
For some reason I can't find the 1881 census you mention ???
could you give details just in case it might be helpful - thank you
What occupation do you have for your Joseph Manners?
Is this Martha's bp 8 July 1860 Bitton, St Mary, Gloucestershire
parents Isaac Carter & Eliza
(mmn Wait - from GRO indexes)
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Martha Carter and Her parents and son appeared in the 1881 UK Census on 3 Apr 1881 at Beach Farm Lane in Bitton (Gloucs), Keynsham, Gloucestershire, England.
in 1882 Her son and parents were at the address but Martha was not recorded as living there, and no tracability with that name since, also with work records etc, nothing,
a school enrolment for the son William Isaac, shows that the grandparents had stated they were the parents,
For some reason I can't find the 1881 census you mention ???
could you give details just in case it might be helpful - thank you
What occupation do you have for your Joseph Manners?
Is this Martha's bp 8 July 1860 Bitton, St Mary, Gloucestershire
parents Isaac Carter & Eliza
(mmn Wait - from GRO indexes)
Yes with these details,
I do have a copy of the census,
cant upload an image for some reason, need to re scan it, however here is the cut and paste info.
Isaac Carter Head Married Male 53 1828 Bitton, Gloucestershire, England Ag Labourer Transcription
Eliza A Carter Wife Married Female 46 1835 Bitton, Gloucestershire, England Ag Labourer Wife Transcription
Martha Carter Daughter Single Female 20 1861 Bitton, Gloucestershire, England Paper Sorter (Mf) Transcription
Dinah Carter Daughter Single Female 18 1863 Bitton, Gloucestershire, England Paper Sorter (Mf) Transcription
Isaac W Carter Grand Son Single Male 1 1880 Bitton, Gloucestershire, England - Transcription
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1881 has a married Joseph Manners age 26 occ Gardener bn Hinton lodging with
John & Sarah Manners.
RG11 / 2445 f74 p10
Is this the correct Joseph Manners age 17 Hinton Gloucestershire with his grandmother
Phebe Fleming on 1871 census?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:V5YX-1FY
for info. in case it relates in someway
1871c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFV9-Z4X
John, coal miner & Sarah Manners
I wonder if this is the same John Manners from 1881/71c
Joseph Manners 60-64 Gloucestershire
Martha Manners 55 –59 Gloucestershire
John Manners 25-29 Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Manners 25-29 Gloucestershire
Richard Manners 15-19 Gloucestershire
Matilda Manners 8 Gloucstershire
1841 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7MD-TM8
on the same census page there’s a
John, Phoebe & Eliza Flemming
Eliza Fleming 20 Aug 1837 Abson, St James, Gloucestershire
Father John Fleming Mother Phoebe
Joseph Fleming 09 Apr 1843 Abson, St James, Gloucestershire
Father John Fleming Mother Phoebe
1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBC-DQF
John, Pheabe, Elisa & Joseph Flemings
Thank you for posting 1881 census for Martha Carter :)
added - possible marriage for John & Sarah
John Manners Father's Name Joseph Manners
Sarah Burk Father's Name Isaac Burk
20 Nov 1842 Kingswood (Near Bristol), Gloucester
1851c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBF-54W
John 33, coal miner & Sarah Manners 33 , plus father Joseph 73
1861c https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7JQ-H4F
John 40, coal miner, Sarah Manners 37
It’s doesn’t appear as if John & Sarah had any children from census records
It's possible Matilda Manners from 1841 census had two illegitimate children
Joseph Manners 27 Jul 1859 Dirham and Hinton, Gloucester, England
Mother's Name Matilda Manners
Elizabeth Manners 17 May 1863 Dirham and Hinton, Gloucester, England
Mother's Name Matilda Manners
And this could be Matilda Manners on 1851/61 census
as an employee
1851 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGL-H2J
1861 https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7KK-Y18
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Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,
Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO
From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879
CARTER Martha
MANNERS Joseph
Keynsham reg district 5c 1045
ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index - Archive Bristol for that marriage
Which record office was it that could not locate the marriage record.
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Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,
Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO
From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879
CARTER Martha
MANNERS Joseph
Keynsham reg district 5c 1045
ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index - Archive Bristol for that marriage
Which record office was it that could not locate the marriage record.
Hi, sorry for late reply,
A copy of the original unavailable from GRO and Church registries
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Thank you all for your help and suggestions,
I have been researching My family tree for many years and still unable to find out about two people of interest, I am interested in all of them, anything else anyone may have info on would be a bonus, I have two online trees with ancestry and findmypast, fully loaded with My research so far, although not everything and nowhere near completed,
to recap, in brief,
I am trying to find out what happened to
JOSEPH MANNERS born 1842 approx
MARTHA CARTER born 1861 who was the mother of William Isaac Carter, ( my great great grandfather) have birth certificate,
William Isaac Carter was raised by his grandparents, Isaac and Eliza Carter, beach farm, bitton, upton cheney,A Carter family home, Martha Carter also lived there, but disappears from 1881 with no further tracability,
I am fairly sure of I searched all records currently available,
Martha Carter is recorded on William Isaac Carter birth certificate, no known father,
Church Baptism, states Joseph Manners as the Father of william Issac Carter,
there is also a record from the same church a few weeks later saying that Joseph Marners Carter was the father , I have found no other information on this person, so believed to be a mistake,
there is a church inscription suggesting Martha sister Dinah Carter is the mother,of William Issac Carter I think this is a mistake, as Dinah Carter married a Mr Coles and had a son name William Isaac Coles,
There are also documents suggesting Martha Carter marred a Mr Webb, but after a detailed search, only a Mary Webb was found, was this Martha
also a unknown significant event happened in approx 1895 as most of the Carter family had simply vanished, and no longer in the known area, I have managed to trace a handful living in Wales approx year 1900, again some moved back to Bitton and Bath,in the early 1900s I am from Bitton,
The Carter family core is large, however no one knows much history, in fact not many know / knew of each other, so not much info available there,
Its been a real struggle and have taken many years, for me I really need to find out more, especially about the two people, one of the big reasons is that in my research I may have two Carter families merged together, its has been very frustrating not to mention costly,
any help would be fantastic,
very kind regards
Nathan Carter
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We cannot really progress with Joseph other than what we have already suggested without details from that 'marriage'
When you were searching the registers at Bristol record office was the marriage for George Lewton / Matilda Hunt showing in the register (The marriage on the same reference.) which should have shown as an adjoining entry. Was there any entry for a marriage 6 Oct 1879 at St Mary, Bitton.
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For the sake of clarity on this thread, although you firmly state that Martha's son was William Isaac Carter, this form of his name was what he used as an adult - all earlier records (birth, baptism and 1881/1891 census) clearly show him as Isaac William Carter.
Martha Carter married (as we know) Joseph Manners 6/10/1879 - the fact she is shown as still single and with maiden name in 1881 could either be a mistake on behalf of enumerator or that she had split from Joseph Manners and reverted to maiden name (in 1881 anyway). As Martha Manners she married again to George Francis Webb in Dec.qtr.1886 Bristol - births of their children confirm that her maiden name was Carter.
In 1891 they are in Bristol, 1901 in Monmouthshire where Martha incorrectly shown as 'Mary' and her son William (now married) is with them although incorrectly shown as 'brother in law' of George Webb - it should read 'step son' or, as often used, son-in-law'. In 1911 still in Monmouthshire and she is once again Martha.
Martha's marriage to George does not appear to be available online but one can only assume she presented herself as Martha Manners, widow (which would appear to be a lie from what I've found). George F. Webb died Jun.qtr.1936 Pontypool, Martha Webb died Sept.1931 Pontypool.
As to Joseph Manners - I am only able to view a transcription of his marriage to Martha Carter so no idea what his occupation was given as - it would also appear that he was illegitimate as no father is given for him.
I firmly believe that Joseph Manners was the one shown bc.1855 Hinton, Gloucester, a gardener, shown as married in 1881, shown as 'lodger' living with a John and Sarah Manners when he was actually a nephew. In 1871 he is with his widowed grandmother Phebe Flemming, and in 1861 with Phebe and husband John (surname transcribed as Flemmings) although Joseph listed as Joe, son (?). Clearly they raised their grandson.
Joseph's birth is recorded in the Dec.qtr.1853 Chipping Sodbury as Joseph Manners Fleming and the new GRO index indicates that he was indeed illegitimate. You may well already have this birth certificate but it would appear that Joseph was the son of a Matilda Manners - there is a baptism at Hinton of Joseph Manners, son of Matilda, bp.27/7/1859 - again, I can only see a transcription but as he was 4 years old by then I don't know if original states his age at the time.
All indications are that Matilda Manners bc.1832 Abson, was the illegitimate daughter of Phebe Manners bp.20/7/1809 Doynton, dau. of Joseph and Martha Manners. 1841 census would indicate that Joseph and Martha raised Matilda. Phebe Manners married a John Flam 25/5/1836 in Bath, Somerset - again, I only have access to transcription so don't know if 'Flam' is an error but John was certainly a Fleming thereafter. (The uncle John Manners who Joseph was with in 1881 was Phebe's brother).
Joseph Manners married again as has been stated to a Lily Rose Blackmore in 1890 - transcription shows him as 'single' (a lie) but again indicates he was illegitimate as no father shown for him.
So, clearly, Joseph Manners and Martha Carter split up soon after their marriage and she remarried to George F. Webb 1886 presumably as widow as she married in name of Manners, and Joseph Manners remarried in 1890 passing himself off as a single man. Joseph died Dec.1924 Bristol, and wife as Lilly R. in Jun.1919 Bristol.
Divorce wasn't an option for poor working folk in those days.
Annette
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Martha Carter/Webb and Joseph Manners,
I would like to thank everyone involved with there help and suggestions, and experience, I am very grateful,
Thank you all.
like I wrote before, I had very little to start my family tree research, a few years ago, at the time I started I did not have much older family left to ask any details and really did not know much of the ones from the past,
I pieced together a puzzle from years of research, and hoarded a filing cabinet full of documents using as many online sites as possible, and at times its been, not so much a struggle but more of going round in circles, and have found clarification with some of the replies I have had on here,
And it will continue. will follow the blood line as much as possible, as the surname had jumped a few times in history, but have great clues to work with,
Another strange coincidence, I was raised and still live in the same area as most of my ancestors had lived for 100s of years, but my parents did not come from this area, and they did not know of there past relatives, although my father passed on at a early age, so did not get the chance to ask much,
its strange driving / walking passed old farms, houses and cottages , roads. churches where my ancestors had lived or worked, often thinking to myself if I had a time machine, i would go back and ask them, lol
thanks again and keep up the great work,
kind regards
Nathan Carter
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Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,
Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO
From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879
CARTER Martha
MANNERS Joseph
Keynsham reg district 5c 1045
ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index - Archive Bristol for that marriage
Which record office was it that could not locate the marriage record.
Hi, sorry for late reply,
A copy of the original unavailable from GRO and Church registries
With regard to your last comment here - I don't understand why the marriage would be unavailable from GRO when it is clearly shown in their index and also why it isn't in 'Church registries'.
FindMyPast have transcriptions of marriages at Bitton (titled 'Gloucester, Bristol Marriage Index') and that, as I stated before, took place 6/10/1879 Bitton.
GRO index shows one other couple's marriage with the same reference details i.e. George Lewton and Matilda Hunt. FindMyPast have the transcription of this marriage too (except George's surname has been transcribed as 'Leuton') - they also married in Bitton but on 12/10/1879 (6 days after Joseph and Martha), he son of a George, Matilda dau. of a Thomas.
Glad you are pleased with the results you've received on this thread but can I suggest that when you are asked specific questions, as some of the replies have done, that you answer these directly. It all helps us to help you.
Annette