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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Sally4x on Wednesday 17 October 18 23:59 BST (UK)
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Hi my relative Johannes “John” Lendeman was born in Germany around 1830. I have no idea who he married, but he had two children Sophia Christiana born around 1845 and George born around 1850.
He marries his second wife Sophia Prior in 1858 in Lincolnshire and they have three children, Hannah Maria born 1858, Elizabeth Catherine born 1861 and Benjamin John born 1863.
John as he now goes by dies in 1866 in Lincoln. I have been unable to trace him in Germany and this first wife either. From his marriage record I know that his father was Joseph Henry Lendeman.
If anyone can help me with anything on this, I would be very grateful.
Thanks
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Do you know where in Germany he comes from? It is likely that you will need to know before proceding further, as most records are kept locally.
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Well that’s the issue. Everything has been transcribed at Comhalsen Cussell which doesn’t exist.
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Hi,
I don't have access to MyHeritage, but someone on there has your people listed, except John/Johannes is shown as
Benjamin John (Johannes?) Lendeman:
https://www.myheritage.de/names/elizabeth_lendeman
Best regards,
Karen
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For anyone looking these are the details from the 1861 census
RG09/2389 f52 p9
John Lenderman age 30 occ Dealer In Marine Stores- Place of birth not given it states 'Illegible'
Sophia age 31 bn Norfolk
Hannah Maria age 4 bn Castor, Lincolnshire
Sophia 16 bn Comhalsen Cassel
George 11 bn Comhalsen Cassel (Germany added by Enumerator)
ADDED
His marriage to Sophia gives his occupation as Mariner and his fathers occupation as Weaver
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Those birthdates on census cannot be right.
John is age 30 but he has a 16 year old daughter ::)
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John as he now goes by dies in 1866 in Lincoln.
I am not seeing the death but I do see that an order was served in March 1865 for the removal of John Lendeman, a lunatic, to the Count Asylum at Lincoln.
ADDED Newspaper has his death as 16 March 1866 age 35
Lincolnshire Chronicle 24 March 1866
Deaths Mar qtr 1866
Lendermann John age 35
Lincoln 7a 311
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That's rather sad. :(
What if the first 2 children, Sophia & George - whenever they may have been born - were also kids of Sophia (Prior) and Benjamin/John/Johannes?
It seems a bit of a coincidence that his first child has the same name as his (2nd) wife...
Seeing as he is listed as being a mariner, maybe he went to England/Norfolk and met and fell in love with Sophie Prior, as a result of which, 2 kiddies were born. :-*
Maybe the weird place of birth is simply a red herring to cover up their naughty goings-on. :P
Later, he moved to England, married Sophie, had more kiddies with her, went mad and died. Poor soul. :(
All conjecture, of course, but what if...
Best regards,
Karen
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The first supposed child of John & Sophia (nee Prior) - Hannah appears on the 1871 census with Sophia & her new husband and is listed as Anne M Prier age 13. Elizabeth & Benjamin are listed as Lendmen.
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Sophia Lendeman remarried 17 May 1866 to Benjamin Marshall (FreeREG)
Her Father was James GAGEN a Labourer.
She didnt wait long to remarry.
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Sophia C married Robert Jones.
Census gives place of birth as
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Looks like Hanahs Bapt is mistrancribed with her Birth Date;
HANNAH MARIA Landeman
Birth date 10 Mar 1827
Baptism date 25 Dec 1859
Parents JOHN/SOPHIE
Abode King Ed Street North, Grimsby
The 3 Girls Marriages are also on FreeREG
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Thanks - I already have most of that. Hannah Maria sometimes Annie Maria Prior was born before him and Sophia Prior married.
I have often wondered whether those first two children that are showing as been born in Germany were either siblings or as most people on Ancestry presume the children of Johannes and Sophia before they married.
He is my 3rd great grandfather and it is frustrating to not be able to find anything about him. As you say the ages don’t add up and also the names and spellings constantly change!
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And I have also searched for Neidermieor Germany as well which is on the census for Sophia Christiana as a birth place on the 1881 census and that also is transcribed wrong and doesn’t exist so makes finding these people probably impossible.
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I have found on Ancestry a baptism in April 1843 in Lussow Germany for a Sophia Maria Christiana Lindeman daughter of Johanes Andreas Lindeman and his wife Sophia Maria maiden name Dose. This is the only thing that remotely matches, but of course it would mean than Johannes certainly wasn’t born in 1831.
Lussow is near places called Kassow and Neukloster which are a bit similar to the transcriptions so you never know!
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Hmm, I am leaning towards a totally different area of Germany because of "Cassel" in the 1861 census. When I played around with "Merdermesen"(1871) and "Neadermieor"(1881), I ended up with "Niedermeiser" abt 25km from Kassel. (Of course my guess could be totally wrong).
While I was having a look at FS, I found an 1867 German census for a family in Karow (abt 40k from Lüssow). It sounds a bit like the family you found with a Sophia born abt 1843: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV3S-DLF1
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Sophia Lendeman remarried 17 May 1866 to Benjamin Marshall (FreeREG)
Her Father was James GAGEN a Labourer.
She didnt wait long to remarry.
I'm confused. I thought her maiden name was Prior... ???
Do we have any actual images of the various place names mentioned here (apart from Niedermeiser)?
Comhalsen is bugging me. ::) I was wondering whether it should be (Bad) Karlshafen..? Another shot in the dark! ;D
Karen
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Hmm, I am leaning towards a totally different area of Germany because of "Cassel" in the 1861 census. When I played around with "Merdermesen"(1871) and "Neadermieor"(1881), I ended up with "Niedermeiser" abt 25km from Kassel. (Of course my guess could be totally wrong).
While I was having a look at FS, I found an 1867 German census for a family in Karow (abt 40k from Lüssow). It sounds a bit like the family you found with a Sophia born abt 1843: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV3S-DLF1
Yes I think you are correct. Those names totally make sense and that entry in Family Search certainly is the family I found. Well at least I have an area of Germany now to search in!
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Sophia Lendeman remarried 17 May 1866 to Benjamin Marshall (FreeREG)
Her Father was James GAGEN a Labourer.
She didnt wait long to remarry.
I'm confused. I thought her maiden name was Prior... ???
Karen
I think it means that Sophia was illegitimate. So confusing!
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There is also an Immenhausen in Kassel nearby. I need to search around this area.
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Yep very confusing;
Sophia Prior Gagen GAGEN Baptised 04 Jan 1832, Holy Innocents, Foulsham, Norfolk
Parents James GAGEN, Sophia PRIOR
Notes; Bp.surname: PRIOR
Here is the connection to the Nickels name;
1841 Census
Foxley, Norfolk
Robert Nickells, 25, Ag Lab
Elizabeth Nickells, 25
Deborah Nickells, 6
George Nickells, 4
Louisa Nickells, 2
Sophia PRIOR, 8*******
Marriage;
30 Oct 1832 Foulsham, Elizabeth PRIOR to Robert NICHOLS
Witnesses, Thomas Fox/Wm Fox/Maria Prior*
(FreeREG)
Possible Marriage for Maria Prior 03 Nov 1835 to George FULLER
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Now interestingly that Baptism is also under;
Sophia Prior GAGEN
Parents WILLIAM/SOPHIA
Father occupation Groom to Cubit Francis
Notes, William GAGEN the reputed father
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And I had always presumed that Elizabeth Prior was her mother!
She states that James Gagen is her father on both of her marriage certificates, but now we have a possible William Gagen. Sigh!
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> For anyone looking these are the details from the 1861 census
>RG09/2389 f52 p9
<snip>
>Hannah Maria age 4 bn Castor, Lincolnshire
Hannah Maria Lendeman is my great grandmother. Her daughter Sarah Elizabeth Smith is my mother’s mother. Hannah was named as Annie Maria Lendeman on my Grandmother’s birth certificate (signed with her mark). Her date and place of birth chime with the information above.
What is now known about the arrival of the Lendemans from Germany to Lincolnshire?
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Please click on the reply button at the end of the topic to reply ;)
Regards
Sarah
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I did click on <Reply>. But managed to include my query inside the quote ;-) For clarification, my query is:
Hannah Maria Lendeman is my great grandmother. She married Richard Cooling in Grimsby.. Her daughter Sarah Elizabeth Smith (nee Cooling) is my mother’s mother, born 1888. Hannah was named as Annie Maria Lendeman on my Grandmother’s birth certificate (signed with her mark - so in her 30s, Hannah couldn't write). Her date and place of birth chime with the information above. She had ten children, sveral of whom died.
What is now known about the arrival of the Lendemans from Germany to Lincolnshire? Can anyone summarise? Is the German place of origin settled now?
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TreeSpirit on Thursday 18 October 18 20:39 BST (UK) wrote:
> I found an 1867 German census for a family in Karow (abt 40k from Lüssow).
That would put the Lendeman family’s home 90km down what’s now the A19 road from the city/port of Rostock on the Baltic, and 100 km from the fishing port Warnemünde. Which makes it reasonable that young Johannes Lendeman should have become a fisherman rather than a weaver like his father, and sailed to Grimsby?
Is there are reference to online documents (census, BMD etc) on Johannes?
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Welcome to Rootschat barefoot-doc.
Hopefully you will get a reply from Sally4x soon.
Trish :)
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Welcome to Rootschat barefoot-doc.
Your great grandmother was the sister of my great great grandmother. I didn’t get any further with my research. I found two possible families in Germany one of which was the one that you mentioned. That one does make sense because of the fishing connection. My side of the family continued to be fishermen up until my grandfather and I remember going with him on his boat in Morecambe Bay!
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Hi Sally4x, thanks. My Greatgrandmother's father became a ships' chandler in Grimsby as you know, and as you also know had legal trouble with two ex-employees and appeared in court with a theft claim against them, then a couple of years later was committed to the lunatic asylum and died there.
His daughter Annie Maria married a trawlerman named Cooling, who later left the sea and worked as a fish lumper on the dockside in Grimsby. She had (at least) 10 children, one of the youngest of whom was my grandmother, Sarah Anne.
Sarah Anne's family remained in Grimsby (actually Cleethorpes) until the Second World War, when the parents (Sarah and her husband Alfred George Smith, a trawlerman) joined the three daughters (including my mother Peggy), who already had migrated to Halifax in Yorkshire, to get work in the textile mills during the depression. Alfred didn't want to fight a war at sea again, in minesweepers. Their son and youngest child, Stan, lived in Cleethorpes and was a trawlerman until the end of his life.
Sarah Anne hated the mills and smoke and stone of Haifax, and regretted being forced to leave the place where she'd lived until her mid-50s, and taken in boarders during the summer. But all my other grandparents were migrants! Two boys from Suffolk (declining agricultural economy, family brutality, family death) and one girl from Rutland via South Yorkshire (itinerant miners). In the end, all roads led to Halifax! Until my road started up! Another story . . .
The Lendemans were the furthest-travelled migrants . . until I went to live and work in Australia for a time!
See All roads lead to Halifax here https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=20&q=mike+hales
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Thanks for the information! I have ordered a copy of the book.