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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Argyllshire => Topic started by: gennig on Saturday 20 October 18 00:59 BST (UK)
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Hi Everyone
My 2nd Great Grandmother Margaret Bradley/Brodley aged 18 came to Hobart, Tasmania along with sister Ann aged 16 and brother Charles aged 12 on board the "Sir Allan McNab" which departed from Liverpool on 28th Oct 1853
According to the Highland and Island Emigration Society they were orphans from the Parish of Saddell and Skipness. Their residence was given as Lochmore Kintyre.
I have found the family living in Saddell Street, Campbeltown in 1841
(Surname has been transcribed as Brodley)
Anne Aged 35 no occupation born Ireland
Margart Aged 6 Born Ireland (yes, the e was left out of her name)
John Aged 4 Born Ireland
Anne Aged 1 Born Scotland going on the shipping list she should be 3 or 4
Charles Aged 6 weeks Born Scotland
Anne Bradley appears to have married Archibald McAlister somewhere between 1841 & 1851Would Like to find this marriage to confirm
I have found the following 1851 census (Surname has been transcribed as McFlister but I'm sure it's McAlister)
13 High Street, Campbeltown
Arch Head 54 Tin Smith born: Down, Ireland
Ann Wife 45 Delf Dealer Born: Antrim Ireland
William 20 Farm Labourer Born: Campbeltown, Argyll
Margaret 18 Born Campbeltown, Argyll
Janet 16 Born Campbeltown, Argyll
Helen 11 Scholar Born Campbeltown, Argyll The above children I believe are from Archibald's first marriage
Ann Brodley 9 Scholar Born: Campbeltown, Argyll The age is out by fair bit
Charles B 8 Scholar Born: Campbeltown, Argyll
Arch 4 Scholar Born: Campbeltown, Argyll
I have not been able to work out what happened to John or Ann senior.
So any help in this would be greatly appreciated.
I also cannot locate Margaret or John on the 1851 census, any adeas.
It would be great if I could find the Births/Baptisms of Anne & Charles.
All help appreciated greatly.
Cheers
Genni :)
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Statutory death registration didn’t start in Scotland till 1855, so if the parents Arch & Ann died between 1851 and 1853 (as seems likely if their children were orphans by October 1853) then there may be no documentary record of their deaths. Not all churches kept burial records.
What denomination was this family? Could they have been RC, and if so, have you checked to see whether there are any surviving RC baptism or marriage records for that period in the Campbeltown area? There are lots of gaps in the church records. That might be why you can’t find the 2 children’s baptisms, or the marriage.
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This is how the family transcription appears on (SP) www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
This is where you can download the original records.
1851 – Campbeltown 507/ 1/ 3
MCFLISTER MARGARET 18
MCFLISTER JANET 16
MCFLISTER ARCHIBALD 54
MCFLISTER HELEN 11
MCFLISTER ANN 45
MCFLISTER WILLIAM 20
BRODLEGO ARCHIBALD 4
BRODLEGO ANN 9
BRODLEGO CHARLES B 8
No Margaret or John in Argyll, others possible elsewhere in Scotland but not together.
No trace of them in England.
I can find no BMD records for the Bradley family, any denomination, on SP
Campbeltown parish death records on SP 1773 – 1854 (Birth & Marriage even earlier), However there is only 16 deaths recorded between 1837 & 1851, no Bradley or McAlister’s
Colin
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Just some possible census entries to consider:
For Margaret in 1851 there is a Margaret Brodie:
Margaret Brodie, 17, house servant b. Derry Ireland
Address: Salt Pans, Campbeltown
For John in 1851:
John Broaday 15 errand boy b. Ireland
Address: Barbeegs, Cumbernauld, Dumbartonshire
And for 1861:
John Bradley 22 lodger, Inside Labourer b. C. Derry Ireland
Address: 136 Saltmarket, Glasgow/ Clyde
Monica
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Hi
Thank you for your responses
Elwyn - The Ship manifest gives their religion as Church of England.
Monica - I'll check them out and now that I have a possible County, I can check Ireland.
Regards
Genni
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Elwyn - The Ship manifest gives their religion as Church of England.
Genni
If the family was Church of England, when they lived in Scotland, then that’s Episcopalian. The main church records on Scotlandspeople are Presbyterian (ie Church of Scotland) and Roman Catholic, with a few other church records, mainly secession Presbyterian churches. But Campbeltown Episcopalian church may not be amongst them. (I don’t see it listed in the search options, so suspect the records are not on-line). You could try contacting the church to see what records they have.
http://www.argyll.anglican.org/churches/campbeltown/the-church-its-services/
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What do you have for marriages....when / where / who....and deaths for -
Margaret Bradley/Brodley aged 18
sister Ann aged 16
brother Charles aged 12
sometimes names they give their children can be a clue to their origins.
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What do you have for marriages....when / where / who....and deaths for -
Margaret Bradley/Brodley aged 18
sister Ann aged 16
brother Charles aged 12
sometimes names they give their children can be a clue to their origins.
Hi wivenhoe
Margaret Bradley(death cert states father: John Bradley) married Samuel Carter (from Cornwall) They married in Tasmania and parents names weren't recorded- Their children were named as follows:-
Ann Maria - (named after both mothers)
William Henry (William was Samuel's Father -don't know where the Henry comes from)
Charles Rawle (Samuel's sisters husband)
Lavinia Rawle (Samuel's sister who married Charles Rawle)
Margaret Jane
Bernard (Samuel's Uncle)
Susan(Samuel's Sister)
Samuel
Mary Merrington ( the middle name is Ann Maria's husband surname)
Alfred Ernest
Her sister Ann married Thomas Leigh Cave. They also married in Tasmania and stayed there and parents weren't recorded on the DC. She was listed as Ann(e) on all the births but later was referred to as Ferdinan. They had 12 children, the eldest son was named Arthur Alfred John Cave.
Charles Bradley never married and died in Victoria in 1919, parents listed as unknown.
regards
Genni
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Mercury 30 Oct 1905 p1
CAVE.-In loving remembrance of Thomas Leigh Cave, sen., who died October 11, 1900; also Thomas Leigh Cave, jun., who died, October 29, 1902. "Though lost to sight, to memory
dear." Inserted by the widow and mother, Ferdinan Cave and M. K. Cave, Constitution Hill.
Mercury 27 Dec 1910 p1
CAVE-On December 24, at Constitution Hill, Ferdinan, relict of the late Thomas Cave, in her 70th year, leaving five sons and five daughters to moarn their loss. Funeral will take place at Constitution Hill This Day (Tuesday), December 28, at 3 o'clock. friends respectfully invited.
Anne is not literate, so likely that her parents are also not literate. You would need to be flexible with family name, beyond BRODLEY / BRADLEY.......
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VIC BDM death
1919 / 1277 BOARD Ella Ethel Audrey parents Cave Thos Leigh / Ferdinan (Bradley)
1938 / 6314 CAVE Francis James parents CAVE Thomas Lee / Ferdenend (Brodley)
Her children are familiar with this name.
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Highland and Island Emigration Society - what information do you see for the BRODLEYs?.
Are they described as siblings?
Census Scotland 1841 at East Bay Argyll
FERNANDER Sarah 20y b. foreign parts
BARR John 30y merchant b. Scotland
BARR Mary 20y b. England
BARR Catherine 1y b. Scotland
McKENZIE Dolly 20y b. Scotland
LARK Margt 25y b. Scotland
BDM VIC death
1919 / 9205 BRADLEY Chas parents UKN / UKN
died RMOND 86 years
How have you identified this man to be Charles, arr. Sir Allan McNabb, 1853 Tas?
At some time after 1853, Anne BRODLEY has reason to believe that her origins include the family name FERANDER. I think it is a family name, not a given name.
If her age on shipping record does not match the age you see for the family, 1841 Census, the family in the Census is possibly not your family.
Margaret CARTER and Anne CAVE would seem to have continued contact over the years, so you might consider that Margaret is the source of FERNANDER information to Anne?
Mercury 14 Feb 1885 p1
CARTER—CAVE.—On January 22, at 126, Thistlethwaite-street, South Melbourne, by the Rev. F. Jolly, William Henry, eldest son of the late Samuel CARTER, contractor, to Julia, second daughter of
Thomas CAVE, of Constitution Hill, Tasmania.
PROV website -
Will of Margaret CARTER, written 2 Jun 1902, died 9 Sep 1909, of 107 Thistlethwaite At South Melbourne
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Highland and Island Emigration Society - what information do you see for the BRODLEYs?.
Are they described as siblings?
They are grouped together on the shipping list. Margaret 1st, then Anne & last Charles.
No they are not described as siblings. They come from the same place.
BDM VIC death
1919 / 9205 BRADLEY Chas parents UKN / UKN
died RMOND 86 years
How have you identified this man to be Charles, arr. Sir Allan McNabb, 1853 Tas?
I have Charles Bradley's death certificate, his grand niece (Margaret's daughter) was the informant.
He is buried at Coburg Cemetery with Thomas John Le Busque, Margaret's Son in law. Charles was a Sailor when he died.
At some time after 1853, Anne BRODLEY has reason to believe that her origins include the family name FERANDER. I think it is a family name, not a given name.
If her age on shipping record does not match the age you see for the family, 1841 Census, the family in the Census is possibly not your family.
Margaret CARTER and Anne CAVE would seem to have continued contact over the years, so you might consider that Margaret is the source of FERNANDER information to Anne?
Neither Margaret or Anne had any education, when they married they signed with a X. This was also stated on the Shipping list. Charles on the other hand had received some education.
I thought Anne was short for Ferdinand as it can be a girls name. Why do you think it's a surname?
Anne's age is all over the place and never consistent, marriage cert indicates circa 1836. Her death notice indicates Circa 1840. Shipping Record circa 1837. 1841 census Circa 1840.
I have gathered all of the Australian information and have most of the relevant certificates.
regards
Genni
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I am thinking that Ferd* is a family name because I am not familiar with Ferdinand as a female given name?....in Scotland?.....in the early 19th century?
Ann is not identified by this name, or referred to by others, until.....when?.........late 1890s?
What is the earliest use that you see of that name for Ann?
I think it is possible that Margaret, Ann and Charles are related, but I would keep an open mind about them being two sisters and their brother. They might be step / half siblings....two siblings and a cousin?.
Siblings often give to their own children as given names, the names of their own siblings.
I can see Anne and Margaret have a son Charles.......Ann does not have a Margaret.........Margaret does not have a Ferd*
Are the records for the Highland and Island Emigration Society accessible online?
Do you have a marriage and children for Charles BRODLEY?
Can you scan his death certificate and place here for us to see?
If Margaret, Ann and Charles are described as orphans, 1853...........then they have been orphans for a long time ie. no younger BRODLEY siblings for them.
Or......the Highland and Island Emigration Society has a minimum age for orphans. What is the lowest age, (youngest) that you see for emigrants described as orphans on the Sir Allan McNAB?
If Margaret, Ann and Charles have been orphaned for many years, then for the 1851 census they might not be living with a parent, or all living together. That might even be the case for the 1841 census.
Ann gives the name CANMORE to a son. Is this a CAVE or BRODLEY family name?
For census, Scotland, records I see CANMORE / CANMOUR / CRANMORE / CRANMOUR family names.
On the Highland and Island Emigration Society file - who else do you see with these locations -
" Parish of Saddell and Skipness. Their residence was given as Lochmore Kintyre."
"..Charles Bradley's death certificate, his grand niece (Margaret's daughter) was the informant."
And Margaret's daughter would be a niece to Charles, brother of Margaret?
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Hi Wivenhoe
Charles Bradley/Brodley never married.
He was a sailor - I've attached his death certificate.
The informant was Violet Dynes (nee Le Busque) daughter of Margaret Jane Carter & Thomas John Le Busque. Charles was living with her family when he died.
While Anne & Charles were born in Scotland, they were of Irish descent, their mother was Irish. I don't know what nationality their father was, but believe he was a mariner and named John.
Yes, Ann used Canmore as well as McEwan as middle names for her children. I think Anne started using Ferdinan late 1890's. I'm thinking maybe she learned to read & write, her husband could, she may have decided to she liked the name. Her husband started using Leigh/Lee in his name around the same time. Her granddaughter born in 1897 was called Ferdinan Maria.
When the three of them arrived in Hobart, they were put into Farm service. Margaret moved to Victoria before Anne was married, so they would have had little opportunity to see each other and Margaret never learned to write.
Cheers
Genni
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Hi Genni, I am a direct descendant of John Brodie/Bradley the father of Margaret, I was born in Campbeltown Argyll Scotland. My Mother was a Brodie. Campbeltown is 11 miles across the sea from Antrim and you can see the Antrim Coast from it on a clear day. The Bradleys came from Rathlin Island off the Antrim Coast and settled in Campbeltown and Surrounding areas in the late 1700s to early 1800s. Some stayed behind and relocated to Ballymena and other coastal areas. They scattered all over the world from Ireland due to the Protestant church taking over the lands. The Bradleys and others refused to pay a Protestant church money. The Bradley's/Brodley/Brodie's were at one time Catholics and became Protestants in Argyll. (Although some argue they weren't Catholics, they were indeed). They were well known Masons, Merchant Sailors and fishermen; they owned a fleet of fishing boats. Some of their boats were named after their daughters, The Helen, The Edith, The Janet and The Wanderer. Lorne Cottage in Campbeltown still stands today built by Neil and John Brodie in 1885 and has family residing in it till this day. The Old Bradley Bible resides in Lorne Cottage. I have quite a few photos of the Bradleys taken in the 1800s. There was one sister changed her name to Brolachan and buried in Kilkerran, some changed to Brosnan in other lands and other variations. Kilkerran cemetery in Campbeltown holds a lot of the Brodie family graves. These sites might be of use to you, especially My Ain folk. I will see what I can find on Margaret. All the Best Deb in America.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/captcha.jsp
https://www.myainfolk.ca/
http://ralstongenealogy.com/
https://www.findagrave.com/
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Hi Deb
What a surprise, to get a reply to this post, I haven't been on Rootschat in ages.
Do you descend from Margaret's brother John? I believe I have worked out Ann's (John's wife) maiden name, McEwan or Mcewing.
Margaret, Ann & Charles Bradley/Brodley came to Australia via the Highland immigration. Sailed on the "Sir Allen McNab" They were orphans, their youngest brother Archibald McAlister stayed in Scotland and lived with one of his McAlister brothers.
Please send me a private message, I'd love to share information.
regards
GEnni