RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => United States of America => Topic started by: loobylooayr on Saturday 20 October 18 23:16 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I have traced an ancestor (3xgreat aunt) to an address in East 14th Street in the 1880s.
As I am Scottish and have never been to NY , I don't obviously know much about this area or its history.
Could some-one tell me, please, what kind of area this was in 1880s ? And what kind of accommodation she was likely to be living in (I would assume it would be rented)?
Any information would be gratefully recieved. Thanks for reading.
Looby
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Do you have the house number your ancestor was at? That will help.
Also if you have her on a Census? That might tell you if it was rented and so on.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Hi Ambly,
Thank you for your reply.
Unfortunately, I do not have her on a Census. I have not been able to find her on any US Census.
Her name was Jane Harris and the address was 273 East 14th Street - I have the address from a newspaper article .
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83032300/1887-04-18/ed-1/seq-1/
Looby :)
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Some information here:
https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2013/11/25/three-centuries-and-three-views-of-east-14th-street/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Street_(Manhattan)
And a few old photos here:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mw1/
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Thank you Erato,
I was just about to log off and head to bed - it's after 1am here and I'm almost sleeping at my keyboard.
But your links will give me something to get my teeth into in the morning.
Looby :)
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Some more photos of buildings from that time period:
http://forgotten-ny.com/2009/11/im-just-mad-about-14th/
https://www.6sqft.com/then-now-from-luchows-german-restaurant-to-nyu-dorm/
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Some more photos of buildings from that time period:
http://forgotten-ny.com/2009/11/im-just-mad-about-14th/
https://www.6sqft.com/then-now-from-luchows-german-restaurant-to-nyu-dorm/
Thank you. Believe it or not, I had tried Googling for images but, for whatever reason, putting in the full address (including the number) as in the title of my thread, did not give me the results you have given me.
Thanks again for your great help.
Looby…..who is now off to bed :D
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Another good site - just find the street & click on one of the dots
https://www.oldnyc.org/
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Thank you Jomot. That's a great site.
I'm having a good time looking at all the links I've been given.
Would East 14th Street be a thriving upmarket street in 1880s ? Or would this street be a poor area? If anyone could advise, I would be grateful.
Thanks to all posters so far.
Looby :)
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Number 273 East 14th St. is currently located between 2nd and 3rd Avenues at the boundary between the East Village and Gramercy neighborhoods. Of course the numbering system may have changed, but this is probably fairly close to its location in 1880 to 1900. The East Village was a working class area inhabited by many European immigrants. Gramercy was and is an upscale neighborhood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Village,_Manhattan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramercy_Park
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Thank you Erato,
Because I cannot find Jane on 1900 Census or find a death for her , I have no idea what happened to her. I was trying to establish what kind of neighbourhood she lived in to give me a clue of her position in life with her second husband William Harris.
Looby :)
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Unfortunately, William and Jane Harris are common names. Do you have birth dates or occupations for them to help narrow the search? Have you found them on a passenger list?
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Hi again,
Jane Harris was born Jane Dorman circa 1845/46 at Leswalt in Wigtownshire Scotland.
I do not know where or when she married William Harris - the newspaper article says they have been in US from July 1880 and they came from England (I suspect William Harris was English) Therefore I can't locate them on 1880 US Census as they may not have been in the country :-\ . I have no knowledge of any occuptions.
Harris was her second husband (if indeed they were married) - Jane had previously been married in 1868 in Stranraer, Wigtownshire to Michael Murray and had a son Thomas with him also in 1868.
They left their son with her mother to cross Atlantic either to USA or Canada - what happened after that to Michael Murray? I don't know. I assume he died - but he may not - they could have separated. Jane's son never joined her in USA.
The last Census I have Jane on is the Scottish 1861 - she is 15 and no occupation is listed. Being a rural area , she would most likely have been involved in agricultural work.
Thanks for you interest and help
Looby :)
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Okay, I'll keep looking. I'm a little confused, though. Did she cross the Atlantic with Michael Murray or with William Harris?
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Hi Erato,
From the information I have from a descendant of her son Thomas Murray - Jane and Michael Murray migrated to USA or Canada without him and he was raised in Scotland with his grandmother. Thomas is on the 1871 Census in his widowed grandmother's household in Wigtownshire and I can't find Jane & Michael Murray in Scotland on this Census.
The newspaper article seems to suggest that Jane and William Harris migrated in July 1880 to New York.
Now whether Jane had never left North America and has been there since circa 1870 or whether she returned to either Scotland or England with or without Michael Murray, I have so far not been able to ascertain. I can't find a marriage to Harris anywhere.
Any other info I could find is a bonus. Jane is a bit of a mystery.
Looby :)
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No luck so far. For what it's worth [which is precious little], there is a tree at FamilySearch which says that Jane died in 1895 - there is no source for that 'fact' and no location or precise date for the death. And the tree does not mention William Harris or any time spent in the United States or Canada.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LK44-CXR
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There is a newspaper article in August 1887 about The Railway Murder saying that the police wanted to interview Jane again but were unable to locate her as she had abandoned her lodgings leaving two months rent unpaid
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mw5/
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Several newspapers also give Jane's address as 273 Fourth Street, including this one:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mw6/
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Assuming that the correct address was 273 4th street, that would be Enumeration District 384, Borough of Manhattan, NYC Ward 16 [the East Village neighborhood of NYC]. I took a quick look at it and didn't see #273 but judging by the surrounding numbers, 265 - 285, it was a working class neighborhood mostly populated by Russian and Eastern European immigrants in 1900. It was a neighborhood of tenement housing - the old apartments have been renovated and are now trendy and much sought after.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mw7/
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No luck so far. For what it's worth [which is precious little], there is a tree at FamilySearch which says that Jane died in 1895 - there is no source for that 'fact' and no location or precise date for the death. And the tree does not mention William Harris or any time spent in the United States or Canada.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/LK44-CXR
Thanks for this . I'm not sure who's tree this is but I would guess it's one of Thomas Murray's descendants.
Whoever has provided the information has my great-great grandmother's death listed accurately (Susan). However as you say there are no dates or place of death for either Jane or Michael. Nor does it mention Harris.
1895 is interesting date of death. Jane Harris is supposed to have popped her head back up over the pararpet in July 1897
https://newspapers.library.in.gov/cgi-bin/indiana?a=d&d=INN18970707-01.1.1
Jane (if it was her) tells a story of a murder confession to the press. She promptly vanishes again after this.
Looby :)
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Thank you Jomot for the links.
Unfortunately I cannot read the articles - the newspapers are appearing very blurry on my screen.
If Jane ran off owing rent that would not shock me ;D ;D , she seems to have been a bit of a character,
Looby :)
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Assuming that the correct address was 273 4th street, that would be Enumeration District 384, Borough of Manhattan, NYC Ward 16 [the East Village neighborhood of NYC]. I took a quick look at it and didn't see #273 but judging by the surrounding numbers, 265 - 285, it was a working class neighborhood mostly populated by Russian and Eastern European immigrants in 1900. It was a neighborhood of tenement housing - the old apartments have been renovated and are now trendy and much sought after.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mw7/
So her address was not East 14th but 4th Street?
Thanks for this Erato - a working class area would make sense given the little I know and her family background.
Looby :)
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According to that Indianapolis News article, Mrs. Harris gave her story to the Herald. Presumably that would be the NY Herald and presumably the tale was told in July 1897. Frankly, Jane's story sounds like fiction and I'll bet she was trying to sell it but, at any rate, that would mean she was living in or near NYC in 1897 and still using the surname Harris.
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According to that Indianapolis News article, Mrs. Harris gave her story to the Herald. Presumably that would be the NY Herald and presumably the tale was told in July 1897. Frankly, Jane's story sounds like fiction and I'll bet she was trying to sell it but, at any rate, that would mean she was living in or near NYC in 1897 and still using the surname Harris.
Yes, the story was fiction. Strange that she reappears after 10 years. If only the 1890 Census survived - she may have been on that one.
Looby :)
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Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 7 July 1897
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Thank you Erato ;D
That article has named her as Jennie Harris . I have not come across anything with her name as that before. I reckon the other woman mentioned in the article is her sister Mrs Agnes Space who lived in Deckerstown NJ.
Looby :)
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Regarding the murder, that's probably Rahway, not Railway, as in Rahway, New Jersey. Maybe it happened there?
edited to add
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rahway_Murder_of_1887
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Regarding the murder, that's probably Rahway, not Railway, as in Rahway, New Jersey. Maybe it happened there?
edited to add
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rahway_Murder_of_1887
Yes thank you - it was the Rahway, New Jersey, Murder. Jane Harris was insisting that the victim was her sister. I have already found several articles about that. I'm really trying to find out what happened to Jane Harris and establish where she was living.
My initial request was regarding the area she gave as her address. I was trying to establish her circumstances during 1880s.
Looby :)
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How about this Jane Harris in 1900? She could have been lying about her age.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6QNS-SD3?i=3&cc=1325221
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That is a possibility Erato.
She could easily knock 10 years off her age and pretend to be younger. The year of immigration -1880 - is a good match with previous info.
This lady states she was married for 25 years - if William had not long died that could be possible :-\
And this lady states she has had two children - then in next column a figure 2 has been scored out? Does that mean the children are dead?
I only know of Thomas Murray , her son. Jane could have had another child - I have never found a trace of one.
But this gives me something to consider . Does the occupation say Nurse or None?
Looby :)
Added - Thank you, again Erato .
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I have found Jane's date of birth on her baptism record on Scotlands People website where she is recorded as Jane Dormans. Her D.O.B is 3rd September 1846.
Thanks to all for their comments and help - I appreciate it.
Makes me think I might crack Jane and what happened to her yet.
Looby :)
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If you haven't already seen it, you can see the 1897 NY Herald article by searching for 'Harris Dorman Rahway' at:
http://www.fultonhistory.com/Fulton.html
Numerous other articles also come up in the search.
The high point of the Herald article is a picture of Jane Harris which, I regret to say, is not flattering. According to the article, she was "living temporarily at No. 326 West Fortieth Street" in Jul 1897. It also says that William Harris died "about a year ago," which is to say in about July 1896. It seems to confirm that Jane went by the name Jennie. Several other addresses where she lived at one time or another are mentioned [she seems to have moved around a great deal]. It says she had two children, both dead.
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An article from the Evening Telegram on 7 July 1897 [Rahway Murder Is Cleared Up] refers to "Mrs. William Harris of Oceanport, N.J., living temporarily at No. 323? West Fortieth Street this city [NYC]." In this accounting of the murder, Mary was said to have traveled on the steamship 'Bolivia' carrying $2000 which was her part of her father's fortune.
An article in the Herald on 9 July 1897 [Mary Dorman's Tragic Death], has an interview with Jane's sister Agnes who was living in Syracuse, NY and remarried to a guy named Charles Williams.
The other articles are worth reading, too, if you need more background. They seem to confirm that, at the time of the murder, Jane Harris was living at 273 East 4th Street, NYC not on 14th Street. It was the brother-in-law, Andrew Kirkwood, who lived on 14th Street in Jersey City, N.J.
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Good morning
Thank you so much Erato - I have not seen these reports from 1897 before. I'm quite excited to get down to studying them fully later today.
I've had a quick look at the artist's impression of Jane and you are right - she looks like she's had a hard life. I wonder if she did have two children who died? Or if that is all part of her tale. Certainly her son Thomas is still alive and well in Scotland at this time - and doing quite well for himself , despite his poor start in life.
You have to wonder at Jane's motivation for her reappearance in 1897 - I suppose she was hoping to be paid for her interview? She is certainly spinning a web of lies. The sisters father never had a fortune ;D He was a poor agricultural worker who died in 1864. And Mary Dorman never left Scotland !! She was still very much alive and kicking at the time of these articles.
I knew that Agnes Dorman Space remarried after the death of her husband . Charles Williams was a Scandanavian immigrant and they went on to have a family. Agnes gave birth very late in life. She was approx. 51 year old when she had her third child.
I've been in touch a few years ago on this site (and on a thread relating to someone looking for info on Agnes) with a descendant of that third child.
Thanks again for finding these amazing articles. I'll have a better read later. But now Monday morning calls.......
Looby :)
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And this lady states she has had two children - then in next column a figure 2 has been scored out? Does that mean the children are dead?
Looby :)
I can't get the image to load for me, but if the number is scored out, it might just mean that the enumerator was not supposed to ask that question if the woman was a widow, and someone "corrected" it. I think I've seen this question handled that way for widows in other cases, but my exact memory is foggy. Check others in similar circumstances on the page or the pages before and after.
One of the posts mentioned an artist's sketch of Jane. That is about all you can hope for from the censuses - an artist's sketch. But sometimes the sketch tells you something you didn't know, in this case that she might have had another child.
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Thank you oldohiohome,
I will look for other widows on Census to compare with the entry for Jane Harris which Erato shared.
You are so correct about a Census entry being like a sketch of someone's life circumstances on a particular day. Of course, Census entries are only as accurate as the knowledge and honesty of the person supplying the info.
Looby
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An article from the Evening Telegram on 7 July 1897 [Rahway Murder Is Cleared Up] refers to "Mrs. William Harris of Oceanport, N.J., living temporarily at No. 323? West Fortieth Street this city [NYC]." In this accounting of the murder, Mary was said to have traveled on the steamship 'Bolivia' carrying $2000 which was her part of her father's fortune.
An article in the Herald on 9 July 1897 [Mary Dorman's Tragic Death], has an interview with Jane's sister Agnes who was living in Syracuse, NY and remarried to a guy named Charles Williams.
The other articles are worth reading, too, if you need more background. They seem to confirm that, at the time of the murder, Jane Harris was living at 273 East 4th Street, NYC not on 14th Street. It was the brother-in-law, Andrew Kirkwood, who lived on 14th Street in Jersey City, N.J.
Thanks again for these. I am trying to read them . Perhaps it is my laptop , but I am finding these newspaper images very blurry :-X :'(
Looby :)
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Which ones are too blurry? If they aren't too long, I can clip them and attach them here.
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Which ones are too blurry? If they aren't too long, I can clip them and attach them here.
Thanks for the offer Erato - but I have opened another internet browser and have now succeeded in opening a much clearer image of the newspaper (the one with Jane's image) ;D I can read it with ease.
Looby :)
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For what it's worth, there was a Dr. William J Gilfillan who did live on Main Street in Brooklyn. There were, of course, many people named William Harris in Brooklyn so, without knowing Harris's occupation, it is impossible to confidently identify the William Harris who rented housing from Gilfallen. It may be worth noting, though, that in 1884/1885 there was a waiter named William H. Harris who lived at 354 Gold Street, Brooklyn. Gold Street could accurately be described as "a little way up from Fulton or Catharine Street ferry" - it was about six blocks east of the Catharine St. ferry and about nine blocks from the Fulton St. ferry.
Do you know what William's middle initial was?
https://archive.org/details/1885BPL/page/n567
And in 1880, there was a William Harris, ropemaker, at 331 Gold Street.
https://archive.org/details/1886BPL/page/n493
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I'm not aware of William having a middle initial (not to say he didn't :-\ )
Interestingly , during my search of death records on Familysearch , I came across the death of a William H Harris on 25th August 1896 in Brooklyn, New York. He was 76, married, born in USA and his occupation was Commission Mch (? no idea what that is? ) .
Looby :)
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Was Michael Murray Scottish or Irish? Just about every Michael Murray I see entering or living in the United States was Irish. I'm hard put to find one reportedly born in Scotland. [To be sure, my own ggg-grandmother was a Murray from Wigtownshire but, then again, maybe she was Irish, too.]
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Was Michael Murray Scottish or Irish?
Haven't been able to establish that. My instinct is that he probably was Irish. I can't locate him on 1851 Census.
Looby