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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Clifford44 on Tuesday 23 October 18 19:20 BST (UK)
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Could anyone identify these uniform please. It is WW1 or thereabouts and the wearer lived in Belfast at the time though he was born in Preston England.
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Resize it to under 500 Kb.
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Just to add to the advice given by jim1, if you have already tried to upload it and failed, you may well have to now rename it.
Frank.
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Thanks
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Look's like 17th Royal Lancer's with the white feather's.
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Royal Lancers WW1
https://rememberourdeadregimentallist.weebly.com/17th-lancers-duke-of-cambridges-own.html
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The 2nd. photo shows him with 2 GC chevrons indicating at least 6 years service. The 3rd. chevron came after 12 years.
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Many thanks. I can now try and find his war record though in researching him I have found several anomalies. But then families always have those.
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What the 2nd. photo doesn't tell you is which Regiment he was in at the time. He may still have been in the Lancers but could just as easily been transferred to any other.
I can't see a Medal Card for him in the Lancers so either transferred elsewhere or didn't go overseas 1914-18.
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Thanks Jim1. Edward is certainly difficult to pin down. He is my wife's great uncle and we have family evidence of him, those photos and his death certificate. We know he lived in Belfast in 1911 with 5 children, though even there at the age of 29 he is down as married 16 years. (possible mistake in transcription). His death certificate puts him in a suburb of Londonderry.
I have hit a blank on his army record completely. There is no evidence that he fought in WW1 at all and as he would have been 31 in 1914 I wonder whether his army service is largely prewar, possibly in Ireland. Maybe I will get results eventually.
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Are you sure the photos are of Edward Flood? The 1911 Belfast census records that he was then a general labourer, not a soldier, and had 5 surviving children, four boys and a girl: Joseph 14, Charles 10, Harold 6, Sarah Ann 4 and Edward 2. However the family photo seems to have more girls than boys.
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Are you sure the photos are of Edward Flood
My thought too. The 17th. Lancers were in India in 1911.
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This is one of those conundrums. Both photos had his name on the back and were in items left to his youngest sister and passed on to her daughters one of whom is my mother in law.
I have attached another photo which shows Edward with his sister, my mother in law and the girl on the windowsill was born in 1923 so that dates the photo to 1926/27/28.
I suppose we will have to wait till the 1921census to find out as I cannot find the 1939 review extending to Northern Ireland.
Thanks for your interest though
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Going back to square one although his uniform looks like that of the 17th. Lancers the helmet plate doesn't & as your man was in Ireland in 1911 & the 17th. in India indicates it's one of the others.
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The collar badge looks like the 21st Lancers.
They also had a white plume on the headgear.
http://www.qrlnymuseum.co.uk/21l.htm
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Tonepad beat me to it. 21st. looks the more likely particularly as they were in Ireland for several years & didn't go overseas WW1.
A possible scenario is that he had done his 6 years under the Colours & was in reserve in 1911, brought back in at the outbreak of war. The pre 1916 tunic & 2 chevrons indicates this was possible.
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Hi, I don't know if its of any significance but the helmet plate looks to have a thistle on it, does that help to track the regiment down?
Frank.
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21st Lancers officer's helmet plate (click on right hand chevron to see second image):
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/21st-lancers-officer-s-lance-cap-chapka-by-cater-co-london-1/Accessories/953279
Looks the same as the original poster's first photo.
Tony
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This has plumes, OR's had horsehair as per photo.
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Whilst the 17th Lancers had white plastron fronts, the chapka plate in the original photograph is not the 17th. It would have to include a skull and crossbones, as contributed by Jim 1 in a later image. The regimental motto was 'Or Glory'. You can guess the missing word in the motto.
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Many thanks to all who contributed. The bit about the unit being in Ireland sounds very plausible. We lost track of him from Wigan in 1901 living with an aunt and Belfast in 1911 with children who must have been from a previous marriage.
I will post anything more I find but I am much further on now.
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21st Lancers officer's helmet plate (click on right hand chevron to see second image):
https://www.gunstar.co.uk/21st-lancers-officer-s-lance-cap-chapka-by-cater-co-london-1/Accessories/953279
Looks the same as the original poster's first photo.
Tony
Specsavers for me ;D ;D ;D
Frank.
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For those still following this post I have some updated info. I contacted the 21st Lancers museum and they replied quite quickly.
The first image is that of a 21st Lancer(Empress of India) in which he served prewar and he probably was placed on reserve at the outbreak of war.
He was also rebadged and assigned to the 8th (Royal Irish)Hussars.
Having been declared unfit for service in 1917 he was posted to the 2nd Reserve of cavalry based at the Curragh. As his attestation papers are missing this is the best I can hope for.
I have contacted the Hussars museum.
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Thank you Clifford, I can see the pale blue/grey collar, cuffs and plastron colour now.
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I can see his MIC now. Sgt. 1933 8/Hussars enlisted 13/1/08 discharged 29/8/17 (no longer physically fit). Entered France 11/11/14.
His SWB record has him as Hood on Ancestry.
In the 2nd. photo he has no stripes but does have 2 chevrons so taken after 13/1/14 & before embarkation 11/11/14. At this time he was in the 8th. Hussars.
The war diary names reservists living in India being recalled to duty but not those in the UK.
Hopefully the 8th. Hussars museum can shed some light on it.
War diary; Ambala Bde.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mx7/
8th. Hussars: 1914-16
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mx8/
1917-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mxa/
You said this on p.2:
We know he lived in Belfast in 1911 with 5 children, though even there at the age of 29 he is down as married 16 years. (possible mistake in transcription). His death certificate puts him in a suburb of Londonderry
On this Edward Flood's discharge he was aged 29 giving a DOB of 1888.
They can't both be right.
Edward Flood soldier is in Barracks with the 8/Hussars in 1911 aged 22 & single born Manchester.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mxc/
Who did your Edward marry, when & where?
Did he marry Sarah Ann Cope Aug. 1917?
Are his parents William & Jane (nee Stott)?
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Hi to all following this and thanks for your time.
I have received this from the Hussars Museum.
All records of soldiers posted to the Curragh 1914 to 1922 were repatriated back to England in 1922 when the British Army evacuated. The National Archives hold the War Office files. They also suggested The Department of Early Printed books in Trinity College Dublin as they have copies of British Army lists
This is all getting beyond my skill level now and I also feel we may be talking about different Edward Floods.
All the evidence I have comes from family sources but also Ancestry.
My Edward Flood was born in 1883 in Preston. He is on the 1891 census with his mother father and two sisters, Lilain is the one who is my wifes grandmother.
On the 1901 census he is living in Wigan with the Atherton family who are his mothers family.
On the 1911 census he is in Belfast but there are inconsistencies with dates in particular the length and marriage and the age of one of his children. Family history says he had 7 two of whom died which matches the 1911 census. His wife was Mary. Between 1901 and 1911 we know nothing except what has come down through the family.
The two photos come from within the family collection.
My wifes grandmother visited Ireland to see her family we think in the 1950's.
We have Edwards death certificate for 1963 in Londonderryon which it states he was 84 but caant have been as he would only have been 80.
Lots of inconsistencies in his life but then he had an odd childhood. His grandfather was a criminal and ended up in the workhouse and his father fell in Preston dock and drowned.
It would seem the soldier Jim1 has found may not be Edward which increase the mystery.
Can I ask Jim1 where he got all this - just for my own knowledge of sources.
Thanks
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The info for Edward came from the 1911 census & I followed it up to his birth.
I think there's been some fibbing in 1911. It's clear Edward & Mary hadn't been married 16 years but I think that's what he put just to make it look respectable.
To be absolutely sure the man in the photos are Edward (you can't always rely on what someone put on back) you need his marriage cert to see what job he had also the birth of one of his children.
I would also want to know what source the Lancers museum have that says he transferred to the 8/Hussars.
At the moment there are too many inconsistences.
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Hello,
Certainly looks like the same man on all the photographs. On two of the them, 2nd one taken with his children and later photograph of a family group, Edward's left hand appears to have a curved scar running from between middle fingers to his wrist. No doubt at all that these two are the same man.
Regards, Dod.
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There are online trees that have Edward married to Mary Sarah Smyth although I can't see a marriage for them. However in 1901 she's single & with her family so that begs the question of where has Joseph Flood b.1897 come from. I think you need to look at the children born between 1905-1911 as they should show him as a soldier.
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I've been looking at Flood children born in Belfast and have found several in the right period with mmn Smyth and an address of 66 Little Patrick Street. The father's name varies - sometimes Edward Flood, sometimes Patrick Flood. Mother Mary. Father's occupation labourer.
Edward and Mary are in Little Patrick Street in the 1911 census but the number recorded by the enumerator is 34.
Just to add more mystery to it all, the 1910 directory records the occupant of 66 Little Patrick Street as Edward Smith.
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Here are the Flood/Smyth births in Belfast per the records I could find:
Ellen Jane Gertrude born 3/5/1904 at 16 Caroline Street. Parents Edward Flood, labourer and Mary nee Smyth (died 7 days later)
James Harold born 18/7/1905 at 13 California Street, Parents Edward Flood, labourer and Mary nee Smith
Nellie born 16 /5/ 1907 at 18 Caroline Street, Parents Edward Flood, labourer and Mary nee Smyth
Thomas Edward born 16/7/1909 at 66 Little Patrick Street. Parents Edward Flood, labourer, and Mary nee Smyth
Nellie born 17/9/1911 at 66 Little Patrick Street. Parents Edward Flood, labourer, and Mary nee Smyth
Mary born 11/5/1914 at 66 Little Patrick Street. Parents Patrick Flood, labourer, and Mary nee Smyth
A search on Geni also reveals a Lily Flood mmn Smyth born 1917.
The children in the 1911 census are:
Joseph 14
Charles 10
Harold 6
Sarah Ann 4
Edward 2
So it looks like "Harold" is James Harold, "Sarah Ann" was possibly registered as Nellie#1, "Edward" is Thomas Edward.
Edward the father is a labourer throughout.
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Good info Shaun. So Either the photo isn't Edward or the Belfast family is the wrong one.
Any sign of a marriage ?
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With three girls born after 1911 I am more comfortable now with the proposition that the man in the photographs is the man in Belfast in the 1911 census. Presumably the family photo was taken in 1918 and Lily is the girl on his knee.
I'm not so sure that the information from the Lancers museum relates to this man.
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The problem I have is that the man in the 2nd. has 2 chevrons so at least 6 years service, the only explanation I can come up with is that he was TF & embodied & his TF service went towards his full time service as per the Regs. at the time. There's nothing to suggest he was ever a full time pre war soldier & that's why I don't think the photo is Edward.
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The first evidence we have of him in Belfast is the birth of daughter Ellen in 1904. We don't know the history of the children Joseph or Charles who appear in the 1911 census but they were not registered as Flood mmn Smyth so unlikely to be his children.
Theorising, it seems possible that he served with 21st Lancers for a short time circa 1901-1903 which would explain how he came to be in Ireland (21st having been based there since 1898). And then as Jim suggests, he may have joined the Territorial Force as a part time soldier before 1914.
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Certainly plausible. It won't be the first time a soldier has been discharged for some reason only to join again later.
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Many thanks to all. Can someone tell me how they found the births of his children please. I am a relative novice at this and can do the basics on ancestry. You have certainly given me something to think about.
For those interested here is a little more. I have been writing up his nieces life story(my mother in law) which is basically a set of her memories. She is the one in the family photo in front of the bay window on the extreme left. She was born in1914. This is what she wrote about 1925.
Then in 1925 we went to Belfast where my Uncle Edward lived with his family, Aunt Mary and nine cousins. Nellie and Lily were nearest in age to me. Uncle Edward made ice cream and he supplied both Woolworths. Two of the girls usually delivered it, so I was allowed to go with them. I thought it was great. We went for three weeks, the first two weeks Dad wasn't with us as he had to stay at work, then he joined us for the last week.
This probably dates that photo to somewhere between1930 and 1936 when the niece married.
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Can someone tell me how they found the births of his children please
I used a combination of the free search facility on https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/ and the advanced search functionality of https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/