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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Reedy2 on Tuesday 23 October 18 19:36 BST (UK)
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I am trying to find a baptism for Sarah Cunningham about 1847 fathers name Arthur also for her sister Ellen born about 1843.
And a marriage for Ellen about 1873 husbands name Peter Smith.
In 1911 Ellen was living in England and it says she and her husband where born in County Down,
Any help finding any of them would be appreciated.
Kind regards Reedy
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Religion?
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There are just a few Sarah Cunninghams in that area around that time. Do you have a middle name?
Richard
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I didn't find a marriage for Ellen Cunningham to Peter Smith anywhere in Ireland for 1870 to 1880.
Nor anywhere in the UK for 1870 to 1875, using the index at freebmd.org.uk.
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I didn't find a Peter Smith sharing a household with an Ellen Smith in County Down in 1901. Are they in England in 1901?
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And I don't find Sarah or Ellen Cunningham in the Kilkeel Catholic baptism registers anytime in the 1840's.
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Hi, this is what i know about Sarah. She marries on the Isle of Man February 14th 1868 to a William Ansell [he is a private 69Regt] in the Parish Church Malew.
On the 23rd March 1871 in the Parish Church Brompton Kent. Sarah Ansell widow marries Spencer Pryer. [private 23 reg Fusiliers]
In 1881 they are living in Wrexham Wales. Sarah dies in 1889 in Stockton on Tees age 41.
They had 3 children one of which was Beatrice Maud Pryer.
In 1891 Beatrice is living with her aunt and uncle Peter Smith and Ellen in Stockton on Tees also in 1901.
In 1911 Peter and Ellen are living with Beatrice and her family in Stockton on Tees.
Thanks again.
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I don't see Sarah or Ellen at http://rosdavies.com/ (Ros Davies Co. Down Website). and nothing too promising for Peter Smith/Smyth either.
The churches where Sarah married look like they are Church of England, correct?
I don't know where the Church of Ireland parish registers in Co. Down are, if they are even still around, but that looks to be where you should try.
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Hi Thanks for your help.
I have just found a baptism for one of Sarah and Spencer sons.
Joseph Spencer Pryer born 23 Sept 1873 baptised 11 Nov 1873 in Aldershot St Patricks
British Army Forces Roman Catholic Registers.
They also had a son William Arthur born 23 Sept 1872 Meath ireland.
Also a Spencer Murray Pryer born Kildare 1873.
Bit confused about the last one maybe Spencer and Joseph are the same person.
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The birth certificate in Naas registration district, looks to read as an 8th October 1873 birth for Spencer Murray Pryer. No mention of the name Joseph. Perhaps Joseph's year was wrongly recorded or, when baptised, they changed Spencer's name to Joseph, albeit day and month of birth don't match that of Spencer.
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1891 census only has 2 sons living with their father, Spencer, noted as William Arthur Pryer and Joseph Spencer Pryer.
It certainly would seem that Spencer Murray Pryer and Joseph Spencer Pryer are likely one and the same, as no obvious deaths in timescale of a Spencer Murray Pryer.
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What was Sarah Cunningham's father's occupation? If it was anything but "farmer" it might help pick him out of a batch of other Arthur Cunninghams.
I'm assuming you got his name from her marriage record. Did it say he was deceased? If it did, then he was, but if it didn't say so, it doesn't indicate anything, one way or the other.
Were any of the witnesses to her marriages named Cunningham? and do you know of any other siblings to Sarah and Ellen?
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On both marriage certificates it says Arthur Cunningham is a Stone Mason.
It does not say deceased on either but as you said sometimes people would not say.
There are no Cunningham's listed as witnesses either.
I don't know if Sarah had any other siblings, sorry.
Thanks for helping me so far.
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And I should have asked what were the names of the witnesses to the marriages, especially the women, and especially the first marriage on the Isle of Man? It may be someone Sarah knew from Co Down.
By 1871, you have to figure she was living where her first husband had been stationed, and might not have had any friends from home in the area.
I'm just fishing for names that might tie her Cunninghams to an specific area. Sometimes you hit on a relatively unusual name that only occurs in a few places.
When I get a chance I will look at the 1861 and 1871 censuses for that area of the Isle of Man and see if anyone in the neighborhood was born in Co Down, are there Cunninghams, etc., or familiar sounding names.
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I am trying to find a baptism for Sarah Cunningham about 1847 fathers name Arthur also for her sister Ellen born about 1843.
And a marriage for Ellen about 1873 husbands name Peter Smith.
In 1911 Ellen was living in England and it says she and her husband where born in County Down,
There is a marriage in 1873 for an Ellen Cunningham (father Arthur Cunningham, farmer, alive) but the groom is Thos. Gallagher not Peter Smith-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11260/8129881.pdf
Later (1888) is the marriage of a possibly related James Cunningham-
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1888/10756/5922701.pdf
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The witnesses from the first marriage are Amelia Atchnet and John Kaighin PC.
The witnesses on the second one are Bartholemew Sheen and Willam Mitchell.
I also think William Mitchell is one of the godparents for the son Joseph.
Sarah married Spencer in March 1871 and the census was not taken till April.
Spencer is in Chatham but i dont know where Sarah was.
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The birth certificate in Naas registration district, looks to read as an 8th October 1873 birth for Spencer Murray Pryer. No mention of the name Joseph. Perhaps Joseph's year was wrongly recorded or, when baptised, they changed Spencer's name to Joseph, albeit day and month of birth don't match that of Spencer.
Maybe they needed a saint's name for the baptism.
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I think Atchnet might be a misspelling of something. I didn't find anyone by that name in the 1901 census of Ireland, Griffith's valuation, or in any trees at rootsweb. There were no results for "Amelia Atchnet" in a general search at myHeritage.com and no results for just "Atchnet" at familysearch. So that is a dead end.
The witnesses in 1871 look like they are probably fellow soldiers of Spencer. At any rate they are both men, so probably not Sarah's choice, but convenient witnesses at the time. So that is a dead end.
I did find Cunningham families on the Isle of Man in either 1861 or 1871, I forgot which. Finding their origins might help find Sarah's, or might not. I didn't look at the images to see where they said they were born.
Both her marriages are Church of England, so I think you are back to tracing down the C of I registers. Information, including a good .pdf of all the currently available sources, online or otherwise, is at:
https://www.ireland.anglican.org/about/rcb-library/online-parish-records
What doesn't fit is the baptism of her son Joseph in the RC records. Maybe her husband Spencer was Catholic?
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I have checked Spencer's baptism in 1839 and it is Church of England. So it is a bit of a puzzle.
I will recheck the 1871 census to see if in some way i have missed Sarah, or maybe she was in Ireland at that time.
Thank you again for all your help.
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I will recheck the 1871 census to see if in some way i have missed Sarah, or maybe she was in Ireland at that time.
Not sure how you are going to know if she was in Ireland in 1871 as 1901 is the first complete census for Ireland.
Have you followed up on the records I posted yesterday to see if that is your Sarah's sister Ellen?
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I have rechecked the 1871 census for England and cannot find Sarah.
I was just guessing that she might of gone to Ireland, maybe grasping at straws because i have looked everywhere for her.
I did check the two records that you put on yesterday and i am unsure that it is Sarah's sister
because there father was a Stone Mason but i will look further into it.
Thanks again for your help.
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I looked at findmypast.ie for baptisms of Sarah and Ellen and found none that match. I didn't see any Church of Ireland records in the results, so maybe they don't have them.
I thought I had read this somewhere, here is the link:
C of I records to come online soon:
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/abroad/new-digital-church-of-ireland-records-will-make-searching-for-ancestors-easier-1.3639993
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There are no Arthur Cunninghams on the 1901 Census of County Down who are old enough to be the father of Sarah and Ellen.
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In Griffith's Valuation of County Down, (1863-64), for Arthur Cunningham. (This assumes that Sarah's father Arthur was still alive in 1863, 1864.)
There are 8 men listed. I would concentrate on the first two, since they are not renting land.
Rathmullan Parish, Rossglass Townland, parcel 10c, house only,
Kilbroney Parish, Newtown Townland, parcel 15 Aa house and office
Kilkeel Parish, Aughrim Townland, parcel 7, house, offices, and land
Kilkeel Parish, Aughrim, 27, mountain, joint occupancy with many others
Kilkeel Parish, Dunnaman Townland, house, offices, and land
Kilkeel Parish, Leitrim Townland, parcel 8A, 8B, house, office, and land
Kilkeel Parish, Ballykeel Townland, parcels 43A, 43B, 43C, house, offices, and land
Kilkeel Parish, Moneydorraghmore, parcel 71, house and land
found at
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
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Arthur Cunningham deaths, in County Down, 1865 - 1922, at https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
I eliminated all for which there were images, based on age at death or occupation. That left these three:
Name ARTHUR CUNNINGHAM
Year of Death 1875
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Newry
Deceased Age at Death 74
Returns Year 1875
Returns Quarter 4
Returns Volume No 16
Returns Page No 586
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Name ARTHUR CUNNINGHAM
Year of Death 1869
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Kilkeel
Deceased Age at Death 74
Returns Year 1869
Returns Quarter 2
Returns Volume No 6
Returns Page No 466
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Name ARTHUR CUNNINGHAM
Year of Death 1870
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Kilkeel
Deceased Age at Death 70
Returns Year 1870
Returns Quarter 4
Returns Volume No 16
Returns Page No 397
The images of these are available, information on getting them is at:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
However, I think more civil record images are coming online soon also, but I don't know what they include.
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I don't know where else to look in the Irish records. Maybe you can find a clue in the English records, an obituary or news clipping, etc., but probably not likely for a poor woman in that era. If you can tie any of the Cunninghams on the Isle of Man back to Rathmullan Parish, or Newtown Townland in Kilbroney, that might lead somewhere.
I think of Cunninghams and County Down as my "home turf" genealogically speaking, although I live in the US, so that caught my eye when I saw your question. I enjoyed working on it and I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get anywhere -yet.
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"Sarah PRYER, wife of Spenser PRYER......In 1881 they are living in Wrexham Wales."
Can you identify this census entry please........what names and ages etc.
"They had 3 children one of which was Beatrice Maud Pryer"
What names and ages please for these children....Beatrice Maud, plus.....?
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"Sarah PRYER, wife of Spenser PRYER......In 1881 they are living in Wrexham Wales."
Can you identify this census entry please........what names and ages etc.
"They had 3 children one of which was Beatrice Maud Pryer"
What names and ages please for these children....Beatrice Maud, plus.....?
I haven't looked for the census, but here are the children, based on earlier replies:
1881: Wrexham, Wales w 3 children
- Beatrice Maud Pryer
- William Arthur (23 Sep 1872, Co Meath - )
- Joseph Spencer Pryer (8 Oct 1873, Naas, Kildare - )
bap 11 Nov 1873, Aldershot, Hampshire (RC)
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Seems strange that the children are registered with mothers widowed name of Ansell and not her maiden of Cunningham
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03221/2180979.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03175/2164518.pdf
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Seems strange that the children are registered with mothers widowed name of Ansell and not her maiden of Cunningham
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1872/03221/2180979.pdf
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1873/03175/2164518.pdf
The father was the informant both times.
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I think the mothers surname on the two record are Ansell because it says formerly not maiden name,just a guess.
Maybe i should try and look at the deaths you gave me for Arthur Cunningham.
I have checked most of the English records again but found nothing.
Now i am thinking where they from County Down because the only evidence i have is the 1911 census which states that fact.
I will keep on trying to find them.
Thank you again for all your help.
Maybe something might come up.
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This is the article I was thinking of - about the updates to the images of the civil registrations:
https://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2018/08/gros-online-civil-bmd-registers-latest.html
and I found it thanks to a thread here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=797812.msg6606088
So maybe by next month the images of the three death records of Arthur Cunninghams will be free.