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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Waterford => Topic started by: stannarp on Friday 26 October 18 17:26 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
I'm a bit in the dark here, have been researching my family tree in England, Australia, South Africa and Sweden for several years; but have now found an Irish Ancestor and have no clue where to start. The impression I've always had is that Irish family history research is complicated by the loss of many records over the years.
I've checked the usual places (census information and attempted to find something in BMD records for FamilySearch) and left more confused than when I started.
I've got a Margaret RYAN, b 1837, Waterford to Thomas and Margaret Ann RYAN, according to her probate record in Queenstown, South Africa in 1901.
Jamjar kindly found my Margaret RYAN's first marriage in Yorkshire in 1851, and I suspect I may have found her in the 1851 Yorkshire Census:
"Name: Margaret Ryan
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1851
Event Place: Leeds, Yorkshire,Yorkshire (West Riding), England
Registration District: Leeds
Residence Note: Back Providence Street
Gender: Female
Age: 17
Marital Status: Unmarried
Occupation: Spinner Flax
Relationship to Head of Household: Niece
Birth Year (Estimated): 1834
Birthplace: Ireland
Page Number: 9
Registration Number: HO107
Piece/Folio: 2319 / 552
Affiliate Record Type: Household"
There are a few other Margaret Ryan's in this census in Yorkshire, but they are listed with their parents, and the names don't match what I have on her probate record.
Can anyone give me an idea where to start looking for more information about her parents, possible siblings, etc?
Regards,
Patricia
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Religion?
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IF they were R.C
St. John's, Waterford city
Diocese of Waterford and Lismore | County of Waterford
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1118
plus surrounding Parishes via Map
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https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/irish-roots.html
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Hi Hallmark,
Possibly RC, but hard to tell, as the rest of my family has always been Anglican / Methodist; but as we come predominantly from England and the daughter of this ancestor married an Australian, and her granddaughter married a Swede, the RC may have become lost along the way.
Her second husband (and her) are buried in the RC portion of the Queenstown Cemetery, so I'm going with RC as my current working assumption.
Thanks for the link, I will check it.
Regards,
Patricia
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Hello,
Here is your other thread for information
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802478.
The marriage was in Scarborough but your possible sighting for Margaret is Leeds :-\
Do you have her father’s name from the marriage record to match the parents you have?
Heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Thanks for that - being in South Africa, I have to use Google Maps for distances in the UK ... and what seems relatviely small distances for us now (some 120km) were probably almost insurmountable for people in 1851; and 'average' South African distances are still huge by UK standards, I think.
I still need to find those PR's and go through them to find the actual marriage, but that is a job for another day, I think; its taken me many years to get this far with her family. Her first husband's surname was Bleach, which is also easy to mix up with other names like Blake, etc.
Regards,
Patricia
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A newspaper snippet indicates that John Bleach was a Private in the 63rd Regiment and that they married in the Roman Catholic Chapel, Scarborough.
Another snippet seems to indicate that he was in the 85th regiment.
However, if he was a soldier, they could have met in Ireland - perhaps?
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The marriage certificate would confirm fathers’ names and occupations which might help your search for Margaret’s origins.
December 1851 Scarborough vol 24 pg 687
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Thanks Heywood,
The bit about John Bleach having been a private is interesting, and resonates with a piece of oral history that got passed down to my grandmother and her sisters (the g-granddaughter of Margaret Ryan); that Margaret Bennett / Bleach / Ryan and her husband came to South Africa as a result of the Xhosa Wars.
So there may be an element of fact, but regarding her first husband, not her second. It seems that John Bleach (Margaret Ryan's first husband) died in Queenstown sometime before 1865, and she married Jonathan Bennett (my own ancestor).
Your comment about the regiment is useful - I think it was 85th, based on below, and your newspaper snippets; but in South Africa possibly also the Cape Mounted Rifles (https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk) has a John Bleach in the right timeframe in both; it is viable that they could be the same person, although the John Bleach in the 2nd is a puzzle:
John Bleach 1853 Cape Mounted Rifles
John Bleach 2441 Private 1851 85th (Bucks Volunteers) The King's...
John Bleach 2038 Private 1851 2nd (The Queen's Royal) Regiment...
Neither 85th nor 2nd seem to have served in Ireland at the right time, but I may be looking in all the wrong places.
Hmmmm, re-reading this, and something about the 2nd on Wikipedia (source of all knowledge) caught my eye ... some of them were the regiment on the HMS Birkenhead when she famously went down with 'women and children to the lifeboats first' ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen%27s_Royal_Regiment_(West_Surrey)#The_Victorian_era
Not knowing much about UK military history (so far only one ancestor of mine was in the UK military, and he was honourably discharged for being kicked in the groin by a horse ... impressive that he lived to produce offspring :P), I'm interested that a private could have travelled with his wife, but I suppose the fact that she arrived here does indicate that.
The certificate I will definitely look into, with finding a Ryan in Ireland being akin to a needle in a haystack, I think that will be my only option. I was hoping for PR's which often give useful information as well, but the RC records for Scarborough seem to be thin on the ground; although I'll carry on looking.
Thanks again for the interesting info...
Regards,
Patricia
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I'm interested that a private could have travelled with his wife, but I suppose the fact that she arrived here does indicate that.
I was hoping for PR's which often give useful information as well, but the RC records for Scarborough seem to be thin on the ground; although I'll carry on looking
A small number of privates were accompanied by wives. I think a man who wanted to take his wife entered his name in a lottery.
St. Peter R.C. Church, Scarborough existed in 1850s. Registers, visitation books & miscellaneous documents 1783-1989 are at Middlesborough Diocesan Archives. Contact by letter. Contact info on National Archives website.
20thC registers of St. Edward, Scarborough are held privately - details diocesan archives.
Information from National Archives online catalogue.
discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/NI3996408
There are other R.C. churches near Scarborough; I don't know when they date from; no dates on GENUKI.
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Thanks Maiden Stone, the info about the lottery is interesting, I will follow up on that; also the RC Church Records - turns out this is also my first time researching family history with RC ties, so another small learning curve here...
Many firsts, Ireland, military wives, RC records :P
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Here is John, I think in 1851 2268/611/23
John Bleach b 1825 Havant, Hampshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGYQ-TKH
Earlier in the census pages, on page 4, the officers are shown as 85th Light Infantry. They are at Fulwood Barracks, Preston, Lancashire. Is this is a different regiment though to 85th Bucks? :-\
Later the same year, he marries Margaret in Scarborough.
I have posted this now on your other thread as you have updated that one.
There is also a birth -Sarah Ann Bleach mmn Ryan b 1853 mmn Ryan
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Hi Heywood,
Thanks for that - I used the pay per view on Genes Reunited for the page he appears on, but hadn't downloaded the other pages for Fulwood Barracks.
He is a bit of a puzzle, as I am almost 100% sure he was in the 85th - not sure about the regimental names.
However, my uncle, who is also looking into this for the military side is also sure it is him in the 2nd, as the we cannot find the 85th in the 8th Xhosa War in South Africa, and we have good reason to know they definitely came to South Africa :P; and also that it is him in the Cape Mounted Rifles in the same decade.
I'll post to the military board about how someone could move between units so regularly, as I was under the impression that soldiers stuck within their regiments, and didn't have much choice about it.
Thanks for the birth info, I don't have a Sarah Ann on the death notice for her in 1901. I've got a Mary Ann Bleach (just an estimated date of birth of about 1857 give or take about 5 years) and a George Bleach, fairly certain date of birth in Queenstown in 1858 (from his death notice). Given high infant mortality rates and their mobile lifestyle at the time she could possibly have died young, I will look into that.
Regards,
Patricia
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Hello
From Waterford County Museum -
The 85th Regt. of Foot (now Shropshire Light Infantry) were in Dungarvan, Co. Waterford at least between Aug 1849 and Jan 1850 - https://tinyurl.com/y9eg3nec
This is probably a detachment rather than full Battalion.
History of the 85th - https://tinyurl.com/ydz9rzv7
Distribution of British Troops can be found here -
https://www.scribd.com/doc/133832396/Nafziger-Collection-of-Orders-of-Battle-Index
Stations of British Army 6th Apr 1850 - //usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/850DAA.pdf
1st Mar 1851 - //usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/851CAA.pdf
5th Jul 1856 - //usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/nafziger/856GAA.pdf
Nowel
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Dungarvan
Diocese of Waterford and Lismore | County of Waterford https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1105
with basic filters from Baptisms etc and Year
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Dungarvan
Diocese of Waterford and Lismore | County of Waterford https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1105
with basic filters from Baptisms etc and Year
I can't see a Margaret Ryan baptism in Dungarvan in 1830s on FindMyPast index (free search). You may have to browse the registers through 1830s and a bit before. There are some possibilities in nearby parishes. That's assuming Margaret met her husband in Waterford. She may have been from a parish which doesn't have registers for when she was born. Although the regiment was based in Dungarvan soldiers would have moved around.
I agree that you need either Margaret's marriage certificate or a look-up of St. Peter's marriage register, assuming she married there. The marriage may have been elsewhere in Scarborough district. Catholic missions existed before churches were built in English towns. Missions which survived when Catholicism was illegal held services in chapels in private houses, inns, farm-buildings. New missions founded to minister to the increased Catholic population in England in 19thC tended to open a school before a church. Religious services would be in a room in the school.
I suggest you do a timeline for John and one for his regiment from 1849 to end of 1851 and one for Margaret for same period.
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nowel reply #14. That's useful stuff, thanks. I've bookmarked all the links.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for all the information - WOW, it is fantastic, you've given me so many avenues to look into, all while I was happily playing website website yesterday ;D
@Nowel, thanks so much for the military information, I will look into all of it during this week :)
@Hallmark, thanks for the parish info, most appreciated, if she is originating anywhere from Waterford I will definitely have a use for it.
@Maiden Stone, thanks for the suggestions, I see many hours of happily shaking the family tree this week, amazing what has fallen out just in the last 10 days! :D
I'm definitely going to get the marriage cert, they have really come through for me before when I have hit complete dead ends or puzzles, will get onto ordering it this evening from home :)
Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the advice, links, etc.
Regards,
Patricia
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I'm definitely going to get the marriage cert, they have really come through for me before when I have hit complete dead ends or puzzles, will get onto ordering it this evening from home :)
When you've identified the church from the marriage certificate you may like to pursue the parish register. A few priests recorded mothers of bride and groom.
There's a Catholic family history society.
The Catholic Record Society published transcriptions of some old registers a century ago but very few included post-1850 entries.
Look at list of resources on Yorkshire sub-board.
There are several FH societies in Yorkshire. There's an umbrella site for them with map. Internet search for Yorkshire family history societies should find it.