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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: rubymelia on Friday 26 October 18 21:08 BST (UK)
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Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as; John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?
Thanks for any info or replies!
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Hi welcome to RootsChat.
Here is a description on Wikipedia that answers your question:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored
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Growing up in London 1950's I lived where there was a lot of "coloured" people, I was always told they didn't like being called "black" so obviously I called them coloured, recently having had a conversation with my granddaughter and used the word coloured I was told that I should call them black and there was I assuming was being polite and respectful
Louisa Maud
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Wondering if anyone could help me. I found a record describing my ggggg grandfather as a "coloured man", his name was John Potter (b.1779). I wonder if anyone knows about how this could have come about? Would his parents have come from abroad in a certain era? I'm struggling to find any ancestors beyond him? The whole family have very English names as well?
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Welcome to Rootschat :)
Date a little amiss, but could this be your John Potter.
Marriage - 11 July 1803 - St Oswald, Chester - by Licence
John Potter, 29, Bachelor, Mariner and Martha Allsup, 28, Spinster.
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Yes, you are right in the 1950s/60s it was considered polite to call someone 'coloured' and not polite to say 'black', and to say 'Negro' was if you like a technical term for someone of African ancestry. And today 'black' is the most accepted word and the others are not used. Simply things change over time.
None of which helps with the meaning of the word in the early 1800s. And that Wikipedia article also says nothing about the use of word in England at that time. So until someone come along with a reference, we still can't be sure what was meant by the term, though I am sure it could easily have meant someone of darker skin than the usual Englishman.
And as for your own present day family being pale skinned, don't forget each of your ggggg grandfathers makes up only 1/128th of your own ancestry.
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I have seen several references to a person being coloured in census and parish records.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/black_britons_01.shtml
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Here is an extract from a newspaper cutting around the time which is a report of a "turf-war" in the West Indies which seems to suggest that a large body of "blacks" had agreed to swear allegiance to Spain with the prospect of eliminating the "coloured" or "mulattoes". I understand the latter is an old term for "mixed-race" so presumably this is what was generally understood as being "coloured"
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Perhaps you could contact the author of the article via CCHT to verify the source of that information?
http://www.chestercanalheritagetrust.co.uk/Documents/CCHT%20Newsletter%20June%202014.pdf
Although its website (http://www.chestercanalheritagetrust.co.uk/) seems current, it appears that the Chester Canal Heritage Trust is being wound up. It has been removed from the charity register and is on course to be struck off the company register.
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Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as; John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?
Thanks for any info or replies!
I am guessing the description “a coloured man” could cover everywhere through Africa to Egypt, Turkey and India etc. Many Europeans from the Mediterranean area might also seem unusually dark to the British perhaps?
I have heritage from all over Europe, though not beyond so far as I am aware. In the U.K. I was always considered "striking" with my olive skin and black hair, whereas in Malta, Cyprus, Turkey, Rhodes and Madeira the locals assumed I was local too.
I once had a total stranger ask me in Devon, if I had been visiting a particular place recently. When I said I had been there on a specific day, she replied that she recognised me due to me being of such dark colouring! :-\
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It is difficult to speculate about the exact meaning of the phrase or the origins of your ancestor through reading one sentence.
What was the name and date of the publication that this article appeared in? Sometimes stories of interest would be picked up by other publications, so you may find similar articles about him which give more details.
Have you looked for other mentions of his origins or parentage in baptisms of his children, his marriage or his death?
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What was the name and date of the publication that this article appeared in?
Ruskie - here's the link again. I assume this is the publication in question. See page 2, paragraph 2.
http://www.chestercanalheritagetrust.co.uk/Documents/CCHT%20Newsletter%20June%202014.pdf
See reply #7
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Thanks for the link Shaun.
It might be worth contacting the author of this article to see if you can find out what his sources. There could be further information in the original article they took the "coloured man" quote from.
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Australia circa 1810s ...
Or err ...actually the British penal colony of New South Wales .... 'Lascars' were referred to as 'men of colour' and 'coloured' in the newspaper of that era. The publisher was a 'coloured' man ... Robert HOWE, 'creole' from St Kitts ... (relying on grey cells, I will check my offline resources tomorrow mornong)
The East India Co employed 'Lascars' on the ships to NSW and not on the return voyage ...
Try the trove digitised newspapers ...
JM
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Come on Guys and Gals...
I quoted the source in the filename of the attachment.
The clip was from the Newspaper Archive which is a public record
I dont know where to dig up the author :)
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We're not talking about the source of your attachment, Deebel.
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We're not talking about the source of your attachment, Deebel.
Deebel, I was referring to the link supplied by Shaun at reply #11 to the 2014 article which appeared in the CCHT Newsletter. The article was written by Terry Kavanagh in which there was mention, in italics, of John Potter being a "coloured man".
As the words are in italics I wondered if this might be a quote from somewhere.
I suggested that rubymelia try to contact Terry Kavanah to see where he got this information from.
At the very least it looks like he and ruby are related. :)
Added: Apologies Shaun, Don't know how, but I seem to have overlooked your reply at #8 mentioning the CCHT article and suggesting ruby contact them. (I'm not concentrating very well I don't think) :)
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https://www.birminghampost.co.uk/lifestyle/black-history-britain-began-way-3926855
and;
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/visit/places/portchester-castle/history-and-stories/black-people-in-late-18th-century-britain/
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I don't think 'Coloured' was a term that was used in England in the 18th century.
This is a long list of parish entries, mainly from three churches, of Black and Asian people in London at the dates 1570's to the early 1900's.
I haven't read all of them, there are over 500 records listed, but the most commonly used term by far seems to be 'Black'. I couldn't see the term 'coloured' being used at all in the records but, as I said, it is a really long list and I only skimmed through it
Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section
Black and Asian people discovered in records held by the Manuscripts Section
https://www.history.ac.uk/gh/baentries.htm
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Here's an example of the term 'men of colour' appearing in the government newspaper in the British penal colony of New South Wales in the 1820s ...
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2184224/495215 Sydney Gazette 14 July 1825 page 5 reporting on an extract from the The Courier Francais
" The Courier Français, in its No. of March 2,has given some very incorrect statements respecting the situation of the men of colour from Martinique, now in Senegal.We can assure our readers that none of those persons have been subjected to confinement ; that on the contrary, all exercised their professions at liberty; that the Government of Senegal, has been ..... that lastly, the letters from that Government do not mention that we have to deplore the death of so much as one of the men of colour in question."
JM
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mea culpa
deebel
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a reply on a question in the House on Rhodesia recorded in Hansard vol 738 20 December 1966
Mr. Bowden
The estimated population of Rhodesia at 31st December, 1965 was Africans 4,080,000, Europeans 224,000, coloureds 13,000 and Asians 8,100.
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The trouble is, the use and meanings of words can change over the decades/centuries and probably varies by country and even within specific countries. :-\
I think you would need to find the source and see if that tells you more... :)
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Bowden was Secretary of State for Commonwealth Affairs in Wilson's Labour Government therefore as he was responding to a question in the House his reply presumably is based on the UK Governments analysis and categorisation of the population of Rhodesia at the time.
I am not suggesting that the word describes any particular category of peoples; simply that it illustrates the fact that the term "coloured" was used to separately identify population which was not African, European nor Asian in that particular case.
Of course Ruskie makes a good point as my scan of the Hansard online noted an MP posing a question regarding the South Africa police asking the minister to advise the numbers of Males, Females,Cadets and Coloureds in the force. Yet another person's analysis however the question may well have been driven by how in fact the force was actually categorised at that time
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So you think the language used by a parish clerk in the early 1800s (which is the question we're addressing) could be influenced by the language used by a government minister in the 1960s.
Too much Doctor Who methinks.
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So you think the language used by a parish clerk in the early 1800s (which is the question we're addressing) could be influenced by the language used by a government minister in the 1960s.
Too much Doctor Who methinks.
I will take the comment in the "tongue in cheek" way it was obviously intended. :)
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I would suggest that in official records there may well have been recognised standard terms for different races or skin colours. However, the original post mentions an article, presumably in a newspaper or periodical, so I don't think you can draw any definitive conclusions from the actual word used, except that he was probably not white European :-\
So far in my own research the only similar reference I have come across was to "... a Negro girl from the Hall ..." in a 1600s baptism register in Essex, sadly not an ancestor of mine. Well, it would have made an interesting change from "Ag Lab" ;D
Mike.
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I am trying to trace the origins of John Potter, who was a sailor/mariner living in Pall Mall Liverpool, who married Frances Fisher of Handbridge, Chester, in 1807 before moving there in the 1820. I initially assumed he was born in Liverpool but due to more information coming to light I'm not so sure.
Due to another post by a rubymelia, who is also a descendant of John Potter, I was alerted to an article written by someone called Terry Kavanagh, who referenced a Chester Chronicle article from February 20th 1824 relating to a John Potter:
“Mrs. Potter said her husband was a coloured man, by whom she had had two twins; and being a little dark in complexion, Mrs. James and her spouse, called them Devils. ‘Here's one of the Devils, Gentlemen, as she calls them; (producing a fine fat lad before the Bench) but this is not all: James's wife says, that I'm a stinking –, and that she's a farmer's daughter.’ Mr. James: ‘No such thing, Gentlemen. You don't know who she is, Gentlemen; she's the Queen [that is, the head scold or abuser] of Handbridge!’" ... [the rest isn't directly relevant]
Though rubymelia seems to assume this means that John Potter was black, my spider sense is tingling on that one. Slavery wasn't abolished until 1833, so the chances of an African marrying a British woman are slim. My personal view is that he may have been a Romany gypsy (potter being a common gypsy profession) or an unusually dark British person (thinking Tom Jones or similar).
However, this is all up in the air, and I would like to know more about this if possible. None of the parish records seem to refer to his ethnicity.
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This has been covered before see topics now merged
"a coloured man" meaning? "
Stan
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This has been covered before see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0
Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as; John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?
Stan
Yes, I've read this one prior to posting. It has been inactive for quite a while now so I thought I would do a new post on it as rubymelia didn't seem to get any further.
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I really despair at political correctness, and I hate words changing for this reason, and I've said this before,
"The American black country singer Charlie Pride tells an interesting story. He says that over the 50 years of his career the media has regularly changed the way they describe him. He lists the different names used to refer to him before finally saying "well I'm just Charlie Pride.". Start this video at 2 minutes 10 seconds.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwAkZPeHN2I
Martin
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Thanks for that link.
JM
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This has been covered before see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0
Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as; John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?
Stan
Yes, I've read this one prior to posting. It has been inactive for quite a while now so I thought I would do a new post on it as rubymelia didn't seem to get any further.
History Lives, perhaps you could consider posting on that other thread to ask for a progress report?
ADD
Opps
:-[
I see you had already posted there very recently. Are you trying to contact that thread's original poster?
JM
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This has been covered before see https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.0
Hi I was hoping someone could help me understand this meaning?
My whole family are white, I am very pale in colour, however upon my research I found an article about my ggggg grandfather being a mariner with flatboats in Chester around early 1800's. The sentence reads as; John Potter, “a coloured man” born about 1778. Does this mean my ancestor was of black descent?
Stan
Yes, I've read this one prior to posting. It has been inactive for quite a while now so I thought I would do a new post on it as rubymelia didn't seem to get any further.
History Lives, perhaps you could consider posting on that other thread to ask for a progress report?
ADD
Opps
:-[
I see you had already posted there very recently. Are you trying to contact that thread's original poster?
JM
Yeah I've left a post on there hoping she might respond but I then noticed she hasn't been online for about 6 months.
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Though rubymelia seems to assume this means that John Potter was black, my spider sense is tingling on that one. Slavery wasn't abolished until 1833, so the chances of an African marrying a British woman are slim. My personal view is that he may have been a Romany gypsy (potter being a common gypsy profession) or an unusually dark British person (thinking Tom Jones or similar).
You appear to be assuming that black people in Britain at the time were slaves.
Reading articles from links on the other thread, one learns that there were established free black populations in Britain by 1800. The best remembered individuals were writers, musicians, clergy and businessmen. There were also publicans, shopkeepers, tradesmen, soldiers, sailors and many other occupations.
" .. barely 20% of the black population was female and intermarrying of black people to members of the white population was common " (late 18thC)
(BBC History - "The First Black Britons")
British Navy recruited free black labour - some settled in British port cities. Liverpool is mentioned as having a small black population. British Army had recruited former slaves during American War of Independence; some returned with their regiments to Britain and settled after the war ended.
"Intermarriage between black men and white women was high"
From English Heritage - History Stories "Black People in Late 18th Century Britain"
See links on the other thread.
Is Tom Jones "Jones the Voice"? Another Welsh Voice, Shirley Bassey was from Tiger Bay, Cardiff, which I believe had a long-established black population.
On the other hand, you may be correct that John Potter was of Romany origin.
As discussed on the original thread, defining the word coloured is difficult.
Is your spider's name Anansi? :)
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Do you know if there would be any immigration / naturalization records for these? If so I will check through the registers and see if his name is mentioned.
It seems from the links provided + some research I've done today that some parish records specified that the person was a "Negro", yet none of the ones for John Potter do.
This is the kind of situation in which YDNA evidence would be useful.
Interestingly enough, there was another incident described in the Chester Chronicle in 1821 in which a a Mrs James taunted a Betty Price, saying "there's your black husband", referring to Mr Charles Price of Handbridge.
Fascinated by this, I began researching Charles Price to see what I could find, but nothing in his ancestry seemed unusual as both of his parents were also born in Chester. This leads me to think that standards of what was considered "black" or dark were much lower than they are nowadays.After all, surnames such as Black, Blackman, Brown, Duff, Cole, etc pertain to a dark-skinned individual but obviously not African.
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Do you know if there would be any immigration / naturalization records for these? If so I will check through the registers and see if his name is mentioned.
Interestingly enough, there was another incident described in the Chester Chronicle in 1821 in which a a Mrs James taunted a Betty Price, saying "there's your black husband", referring to Mr Charles Price of Handbridge.
Fascinated by this, I began researching Charles Price to see what I could find, but nothing in his ancestry seemed unusual as both of his parents were also born in Chester. This leads me to think that standards of what was considered "black" or dark were much lower than they are nowadays.
I think 1820 was too early for immigration or naturalisation records. Look up immigration on National Archives Discovery website.
You're assuming because Charles Price's parents were born in Chester that neither of them were of black ethnicity. There were black people in England 500 years ago and earlier.
The only thing that's certain is that Mrs James was a prejudiced woman.
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If John Potter was born in any locality within the realm of George II or III, then he was not a foreigner as he was a natural born subject of the British Kings, so did not need to become naturalised. The colour of his skin did not determine his nationality. Among those men and women transported to the British Colony of New South Wales were people with surnames including GREEN, White, Black, Brown, Potter, Archer, Bowman, Caesar, BLUE .... Billy Blue and Black Caesar ... two very famous men of colour in NSW history. I am sure though that John Green's skin colour is not indicated in his surname, just as I am sure his ancestors include people born St Kitts in the 1770s and through into the 1810s.
JM.
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You are assuming coloured means black and of negro origin. There were a lot of different ethnic groups who came to England during the 17th and 18th century's, and earlier. During the 16th century there were Arabic migrants also.
At that time most English seem to have been Ag, Labs, [so many on here complain of ;D] and working outside in all weathers leads to a darker complexion.
In my opinion I would not consider the quote to mean "gypsy" most times I have seen in parish registers Egyptian [ or variants]used if that was the case.
Further links follow;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z327cwx/revision/2
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35843991
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8bbtyc/revision/3
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There were many coloured people in the Country as Youngtug points out. Can't quantify as had British names. Subject has come up before. I posted a pic. of R Bucks Militia musicians incl black musicians c1795. Most, if not all regiments both regular and Yeomanry and Militia had some black musicians in their bands.
I could post a pic. of the kettle drummer of the Royal Horse Guards in State Dress, black, c1750, but won't.
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BBC Bitesize "The growth of Asian and African communities 1750-1900" mentions "coloured seamen" and Lascars. Lascars were merchant seamen, originally from Asian regions but the term was also used to refer to all seamen of Asian, African and Caribbean origin. Lascar derives from an Urdu word and is another example of a word which broadened in meaning.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8bbtyc/revision/1
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Some links :) Several people who were tried in English Courts, found guilty and sentenced to transportation beyond the seas and who arrived in New South Wales 1788 include:
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/caesar-john-black-12829
and
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/blue-william-billy-12804
and
http://www.fellowshipfirstfleeters.org.au/johnrandall.htm
JM
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Link to baptisms at St James church Toxteth, Liverpool
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~hibernia/baptisms/black_baptisms.html
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BBC Bitesize "The growth of Asian and African communities 1750-1900" mentions "coloured seamen" and Lascars. Lascars were merchant seamen, originally from Asian regions but the term was also used to refer to all seamen of Asian, African and Caribbean origin. Lascar derives from an Urdu word and is another example of a word which broadened in meaning.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8bbtyc/revision/1
Seemed most Africans in London in 1780s and 1790s were deported / repatriated under the Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor and similar acts. Don't know if this would apply to Africans in Liverpool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Relief_of_the_Black_Poor
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Link to baptisms at St James church Toxteth, Liverpool
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~hibernia/baptisms/black_baptisms.html
Fascinating. Seems the records from the time were fairly explicit in specifying if the child being baptised was a "negro" or "mulatto" yet none of the records of John Potter mention him as a negro or his children as mulattos.
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Though rubymelia seems to assume this means that John Potter was black, my spider sense is tingling on that one. Slavery wasn't abolished until 1833, so the chances of an African marrying a British woman are slim.
Perhaps I can point you to this true story based in our locality. He is buried in one of our parish churches.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ystumllyn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ystumllyn)
Nesta
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Perhaps might help the search to list what I currently know about John Potter's children. Hoping I may be able to find a record where one of his children is living with a paternal uncle (one of John's brothers) which might shed light on where he was born in the UK or abroad. No luck so far from the census records I've checked.
- Ann Potter, married Edward Parry in Chester. Died in Rochdale in 1873.
Robert Potter died umarried in 1841, aged 18 (cause currently unknown)
Charlotte, married Richard Randles (marriage signed by Edward Parry (brother in Law), died 1878
John Potter, a waterman in 1841 in Chester and married Catherine Schofield in 1845 (witnessed by Edward Parry). Then moved to Liverpool.
Louisa Potter married William Hughes of Oxfordshire, was blind.
Jane, married William Woodworth (witness to sister Eliza’s marriage, also signed for Charlotte)
Eliza married Thomas Powell in Chester. Later married Michael Stout also in Chester.
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Seemed most Africans in London in 1780s and 1790s were deported / repatriated under the Committee for the Relief of the Black Poor and similar acts. Don't know if this would apply to Africans in Liverpool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_for_the_Relief_of_the_Black_Poor
Not most. 700 signed up. 440 of those boarded ship to Sierra Leone. The scheme was for poor black people. Not everyone was poor. It became unpopular among the black community. This happened about 1787.
"At times of war such as Napoleonic Wars in late 18th and early 19th centuries, white sailors were drafted into Royal Navy. Asian, African and West Indian men took their places onboard merchant sailing ships." https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8bbtyc/revision/1
Btw yesterday was 200th anniversary of the Cato Street Conspiracy. Executed for his part in it was William Davidson, son of a black, enslaved mother and a white father.
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At times of war such as Napoleonic Wars in late 18th and early 19th centuries, white sailors were drafted into Royal Navy. Asian, African and West Indian men took their places onboard merchant sailing ships.
What do you reckon the best course of action is for exploring this possibility? I don't have any experience with maritime genealogy.