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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Brownbaker on Saturday 27 October 18 13:14 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone :)
I need help trying to find information about the origins of William Cross & son, (Andrew?) carvers and gilders in Glasgow during the mid-1860's.
William Cross and son became well known ornamental carvers & gilders in Glasgow during the 1860's. They would have been at the forefront of the birth of Art Nouveaux design and sculpture in Scotland from 1860 to the 1900. Listed on the birth certificate of my great grandmother, Ann Steel Cross b. 1865 in Glasgow, is stated that Andrew Cross was her father, a carver & gilder however in West Kilbride(?) not Glasgow at the time of her birth.
My question is....was my great grandmother's father Andrew Cross, also William Cross's son? And if he was, what information is available about William Cross and his origins? I've not been able to find anything more about him.
Thank you for your help!
BB
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Do you have Andrews marriage certificate, if so what information does that give
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@rosie99
Thank you for the quick response!
Yes, i have an Andrew Cross marriage certificate from 1862 which could be the parents of my great grandmother, Annie Steel Cross.
Unfortunately, i can't read the certificate very well. However, the name written down as Andrew's father appears to be William? Cross....possibly the William Cross carver & gilder of Glasgow.
BB
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@rosie99
Thank you for the quick response!
Yes, i have an Andrew Cross marriage certificate from 1862 which could be the parents of my great grandmother, Annie Steel Cross.
Why do you doubt that it may not be the correct certificate, does the mothers name match that on Ann's birth certificate.
What occupation is given for 'father William' on Andrews marriage
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Reading the marriage certificate is quite difficult, because the writing is so faded...
Andrew's wifes' maiden name appears however to look like Mary Thomson (the name on my great grandmothers' birth certificate) and his fathers name appears to be William, with occupation carver gilder - so I'm assuming this could be my great great grandparents.
I thought having more information about William Cross & Son. - the identities would help determine if Andrew Cross of West Kilbride?(difficult to read again) was in fact related to William Cross carver & gilder of Glasgow.
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This is the Cross family in the 1861 census:
William Cross 51 carver and gilder, b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Ann Cross 48 b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Ameen Cross 19...son (could this be Andrew mistranscribed?) carver and gilder, b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Agnes Cross 17 , b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Robert Cross 9 b. Glasgow
George Cross 3 b. Glasgow
Jane Aithra 13 servant
Address: 120 New City Road Glasgow/Milton
The address matches that showing on a directory https://sculpture.gla.ac.uk/view/organization.php?id=msib6_1225725271
The original image of this census on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk will let you confirm the details of this transcript above.
Monica
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Your great grandmother, Ann Steel Cross. The names seems to connect well to this Cross family.
Andrew's details to these parents show on the Family Search index as:
birth: 21 November 1841
christening: 5 December 1841
OAKSHAW EAST ASSOCIATE CONGREGATION, PAISLEY, RENFREW
Parents Wiliam Cross and Ann Wilson
Just before Andrew's birth, their daughter Ann Steel Cross was born:
birth: 18 April 1840
christening: 3 May 1840
OAKSHAW EAST ASSOCIATE CONGREGATION, PAISLEY, RENFREW
Agnes Cross born in 1843, same location/parents.
Son George shows as:
George Spence Cross
Birth Date 21 Jan 1858
Birthplace MILTON,GLASGOW,LANARK
Monica
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The family in 1851:
Willm Cross 39 Carver & Gilder Of 4 Men 2 App
Ann Cross 36
Andrew Cross 9
Agness Cross 7
Willim Cross 1
Andrew Clark 18 lodger
Mary Lamond 15 servant
Address: 27 Finlay St Barony
Monica
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Wondering what happened with Andrew, wife Mary Thomson and daughter Ann in the 1871 census.
This may help to firm up the correct family line. I think your Ann is showing with her grandmother Ann Cross/Wilson in the 1881 census:
Ann Cross 65 Restaurant Keeper b. Paisley, Renfrewshire
Robt Cross 28 clerk b. Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Annie Cross 15 grandchild Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Andw Cross 8 b. England (a brother to Ann, son to Andrew and Mary?)
Agnes Couper Or Trotter 40 visitor
Jeannie Loudon 20 servant
Alex Baillie 32 lodger
Address: 428 Parliamentary Rd. Glasgow/ St Rollox
Grandfather William I think died in 1863:
William Cross, 52 died in Milton/Glasgow 1863. Mother's maiden name showing as Galbraith. Refs 644/7 473.
Monica
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Andrew and family in 1871 in Manningham, Yorkshire:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBC3-RJS From Family Search (sign up free to view records and indexes).
Other children showing for them are:
Robina 1863 Hamilton, Lanark
William 1868 Hutchesonton Glasgow
Agnes Wilson 1869 Hutchesonton Glasgow
I think William b. 1868 died that same year:
William CROSS, 0. Mother's maiden name Thomson. Died in 1868 in Hutchesontown. Refs 644/10 519
Monica
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Robina (Ruby) and father in England still for 1881:
Andrew Cross 39, married, Coffee Tavern Manager b. Paisley Scotland
Ruby Cross 17 daughter Coffee Tavern Waitress (Inn Serv) b. Hamilton Scotland
Eliza Cotterill 32 servant
Jane Harris 23 servant
Street address: 8 Chestergate, West Macclesfield
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When did your g grandmother Ann Cross marry?
She showed as still living with her grandmother in 1891:
Ann Wilson Cross 73 b. Paisley, Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Cross 42 step daughter b. Hamilton https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X15K-LFP
Robert S Cross 39 druggist b. Glasgow
Robert Cross 32 step son b. Hamilton ? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F776-K48
James S Cross 30 step son b. Hamilton ? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F77H-DVN
Annie S Cross 25 granddaughter b. Glasgow
Robert Anderson 24 lodger General Medical Practitioner
Address: Orchard Place, Hamilton Lanarkshire
This is a good reason for looking at the original images in order to make sense of this! No idea have we at this stage who their father Gavin Cross may connect to William and wife Ann Wilson.
Monica
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This is the Cross family in the 1861 census:
William Cross 51 carver and gilder, b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Ann Cross 48 b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Ameen Cross 19...son (could this be Andrew mistranscribed?) carver and gilder, b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Agnes Cross 17 , b. Paisley, renfrewsh
Robert Cross 9 b. Glasgow
George Cross 3 b. Glasgow
Jane Aithra 13 servant
Address: 120 New City Road Glasgow/Milton
@MonicaL
Thank you so much for your help and research! The copy above is from your first post, with census 1861 info, and shows an Ann Cross (48yrs) married to William Cross, Glasgow carver & gilder.
This could be the grandmother of my great grandmother Ann Steel Cross b. 1865 at 82 New City Str. Glasgow. If the son, Ameen (Andrew?) above is correct.
Your later post about an Ann S Cross, 25yrs living with grandmother, Ann - running a restaurant from census 1891 - is possible. EDIT TO ADD: Ann Steel Cross married my great grandfather in 1893 and is listed as 27yrs. :)
Have you had any luck with the info I messaged you?
EDIT TO ADD: another interesting observation from your posts about Robina (Ruby) and Agnes Wilson.....my great grandmother Ann Steel Cross named her children, Ann (Annette) Wilson, George (my grandfather) and Ruby....i often wondered where the middle names Steel(e) and Wilson came from? According to a Glasgow 1861 census of a William Cross', his father was a Charles Cross, an iron foundry clerk at the time. I thought, perhaps the inspiration for Ann Steel's middle name might have come from here?
Thanks
BB
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Hi BB
Apologies for the delay in getting back on with clips from your certs.
First one here is for Ann's birth in 1865. As you have noted, parents Andrew and Mary are living on the same road as his parents were in those years.
Have you looked at Andrew and Mary's 1862 marriage cert yet?
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When Ann married Neil in 1893, as you have said, father Andrew showed as a restaurant manager. From what we saw in the 1881 census for Andrew that is indeed what he was working at in West Macclesfield.
The cert in 1893 showed parents Andrew and Mary as still alive. I do not think they died back in Scotland and likely died in England. At least you have their marriage reg to be able to confirm both sets of parents....although it is looking fairly clear for Andrew's side.
Ann's address when she married, just off Parliament Road, was near to where Grandmother Ann Cross had her restaurant in the 1880s.
Monica
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It is quite common in Scotland to use important first names and surnames as middle names, often from the maternal line.
William Cross and wife Ann Wilson called their early born daughter by that name, Ann Steel Wilson. She doesn't show in 1841 with William and Ann, likely died very young? You need to view William's 1863 death reg and Ann Wilson's death reg. to confirm their parents' names. This might give you some clues on the origin of the name Ann Steel.
For Ann, the only death I can see so far is possibly:
Annie CROSS/Wilson aged 97. Died in 1907 in Glasgow/Camlachie. Refs.644/2 659
Monica
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There does look to be link to the place Hamilton and the Cross family as it has now come up a few times.
I can see one Hamilton birth in 1798 for example that might connect:
John Cross b. 21 August 1798, Hamilton, Lanark
Parents James Cross and Ann Steel
Hopefully William and Ann's death certs will provide more details to work from...
Monica
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Struggling to see Andrew and Mary in England or Scotland so far post 1881.
Looking again at Scotlands People, there is one possible death for Mary:
Mary CROSS/ Thomson aged 62. Died in 1907 in Camlachie. Refs. 644/2 689
Camlachie is also the place where we had a possible death for Ann Wilson Cross also, as above, in 1907.
Stuck on Andrew so far...
Monica
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However, thought you would like to see who was visiting your g grandmother, now Ann McTaggart, in 1901:
Neil Mactaggart 34 Baker b. Saltcoats, Ayrshire
Annie Mactaggart 35 b. Glasgow
Annetta Mactaggart 4 b. Saltcoats, Ayrshire
George Mactaggart 1 b. Kilninian, Argyllshire
Annie Cross 89 Wife's Grandmother, Living On Own Means b. Paisley Renfrewshire
Address: Tena Buildings, Tobermory
Monica
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Got a long old day tomorrow...have to log off now. Just a few notes for now:
Andrew, Mary and Ruby looked to have headed off to the US in 1883. There is no US 1890 census to check. He was naturalized in 1892. This document makes it very clear it is him.
I have found who I think is Mary, a Matron by occupation, and Ruby, a spinster, returning to the UK in 1897.
I wonder if Andrew died there? More work needed into all of that for sure.
Monica
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Hi MonicaL
Thank you so much for your research!
You're so efficient and quick, wow!
To answer your first response - yes, i do have the marriage certificate of Andrew & Mary from 1862. It was my difficulty reading this certificate that raised the question for this thread. Was William Cross, gilder in Glasgow in fact Andrew's father? Looking at the cert it appeared he was, but i wasn't sure. So, thank you so much for clearing up this question for me.
About Andrew & possibly Mary working and living Macclesfield, thats surprising news! Firstly, i had no idea that our Scottish family had ever lived in England and secondly, why would Andrew, carver & gilder, working with his successful father leave to work in a restaurant?
I wonder what happened?
BB
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Hi MonicaL
I just found your most recent posts about Tobermory and Andrew's immigration to the US...thanks! Wow, another wonderful piece of surprising information for my family :)
What's strange though, is that your 2 last posts weren't up an hour ago when i answered you. They weren't up till now....?
I'm going to go through everything you've so kindly searched out for me, and make a timeline to work on. That will keep me busy today!
BB
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I see Andrew was naturalized in 1892 in Portland, Maine.
I wonder if this could be his death
Image is available on familysearch
Name Andrew Cross
Event Type Death
Event Date 25 Nov 1897
Event Place Portland, , Maine, United States
Gender Male
Age 56
Birth Year (Estimated) 1841
Father's Name Unknown Unknown
Mother's Name Unknown Unknown
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BB, I think all that happened with posts is that you clicked on page 2 to reply, not seeing that there were two additional posts on page 3. It happens to us all!
Capricorn, that is a great find. Fits well with that shipping manifest I found with likely Mary and daughter Ruby returning to the UK in 1897.
Monica
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That death entry in 1897 shows Andrew born in Scotland. He was a Saloon Keeper and died from acute alcoholism it is reported.
Burial details here www.findagrave.com/memorial/117393903
Monica
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@MonicaL
There is so much information to assimilate....can you help me understand, thanks!
Can the Andrew Cross with wife Mary & Ruby, who left for to the US in 1883 and became an innkeeper who naturalized in US in 1892, but later died an alcoholic in 1897...be the same Andrew Cross listed as a restaurant manager in Glasgow on his daughter, Ann Steel Cross' marriage certificate in 1893?
BB
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I also found this newspaper clipping.....it does seem to be the same Andrew.....but there's been no mention of him being a University graduate.
Hopefully this doesn't confuse things :-\
It's from the Lewiston Evening Journal
Nov 26th 1897
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@Capricorn
The newspaper article & information you discovered, written the day after Andrew Cross' death in Portland, Maine is an amazing find.
Thank you
BB
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That newspaper clip is a good addition, Capricorn. Mention of wife and daughter leaving shortly after his death certainly is further confirmation of events at the time.
I have forgotten now which son Andrew and Mary is being referenced in this article. I guessed that William b. 1868 may have died that year in Scotland from what shows on the index on SP. ADDED: Son likely Andrew born in England c. 1873-4. This Andrew is in the household headed up by Ann Cross Snr that we had from 1881.
Doesn't surprise me that there is only one daughter referenced in the article. Ann Steel Cross seems to have been raised very much by Annie Wilson back in Scotland. Agnes Wilson Cross may also have died young as she didn't show with parents Andrew and Mary in their 1871 census entry. With Ruby over in Portland with her parents, likely they may only have know of one daughter for Andrew and Mary.
Monica
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Just as a side note, Mary Cross and daughter Ruby left the US on the 'Cataloniavia' from Boston and arrived in Liverpool on 26 October 1897, nearly a month before Andrew Cross died back in Portland...
Mary aged 60 and a Matron and Ruby showing as a spinster, aged 35. Both showing as Scottish on the manifest.
Ruby Cross, may well be back in the US, in Manhattan, New York by the 1900 census, working as a trained nurse (fits with mother showing as a Matron on that 1897 manifest?). She shows as Scottish, single, aged 36 and born in April 1864 (her actual birth was April 1863) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MSKF-2XH
This may be Ruby's death in NY in 1903 www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WDJ-374 Most of the info is correct/thereabouts, although possible error on her father's name?
Monica