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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: cinny22 on Tuesday 30 October 18 06:52 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone,
I have asked for help before about our Thomas Roper. I initially received some good advice........this was some time ago, but now THINGS have come to light and i must ask for your guidance again.
By the way, i tried to look for the original messages, but can't see to find them?
I know i was told that Thomas Roper was born 3rd of March 1899, Brisbane and his parents were James and Anna Roper nee Pook. After receiving this information i checked his World War 1+2 Records and it all corresponded to your information. As recorded in the Army Records, both parents were dead by the time of his enlistment in the 1st World War......and his next of kin is reported to be his Aunt, Mrs. Elizabeth Roberts of Moggil, Queensland.
After finding out this information, i let be for quite a while, and now have decided to get Thomas's Father, James Roper's Death Certificate. James died in 1904, Toowoomba, Queensland. This should make his son Thomas 5ys old. I actually did this just to confirm Thomas's family.
Upon arrival of the Death Certificate, i'm afraid to say, there were no Children, and no mention of a son called Thomas Roper.
The persons making the information is listed as Dr. Robert S. Goodsell and widow, Ann Roper.
Does this mean that perhaps we are looking at an adoption?
Why can't THINGS just be easy?????
Many thanks for your thoughts...........Cinny of Melbourne.
Ps. I can send you the Death Certificate if you require it?
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Here is the link to the earlier thread
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=718882.9
Judith
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Your previous thread: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=718882.0
Jamjar
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Why not get his mother’s death certificate?
1915 B21313 Ann Roper parents John Pook and Ann Bennett
Birth of Elizabeth:
1868 B8206 Elizabeth Pook parents John and Ann Bennet
Marriages:
1894 C1705 James Roper to Ann Pook
1894 C1717 Elizabeth Pook to Samuel Roberts
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar, Do you think by getting his Mother's Death Certificate it would state that he was their son? I guess there would be a CHANCE, but surly, it should be on his Fathers? Cinny22
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Not if he was born out of wedlock and just took her married name.
If he isn’t on hers then you know they aren’t his parents.
Jamjar.
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No mention of a son in her death notice and she is buried alone.
Jamjar
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Oh, dear.........it doesn't look good! Cinny22
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Ann’s marriage announcement: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article181827676
There aren’t any children born to this couple, on QLDBDM.
Jamjar
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If they did Adopt...............surly, Thomas would get a mention in one of their records? Wouldn't it say on a Death Certificate.............Thomas Roper Adopted son.......perhaps??
Would there be any Records any where, for an adoption?
My best, Cinny22
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I know i was told that Thomas Roper was born 3rd of March 1899, Brisbane and his parents were James and Anna Roper nee Pook
How do you know this?
His folks died different years, so not in an accident.
I see his death cert has no folks names listed. How do you know that Thomas Vincent is the man you seek?
I have a cert for a chap with 7 children listed and the eighth being born to the mother prior to marriage being left off.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar,
I know his Date of Birth, by his Army Records...........i have both sets. Now his parents actually came from your records. I had no idea who his parents were at this time. He was, and still is a complete mystery.
He never married and had no children or family...........and he lived all his life from approximately 1930 until his death in 1985 with in our family. It's toooooo bad, we never asked questions! But he was a very quiet and solitary person. Best, Cinny22
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Was just reading his military file and of interest is the address given:
C/- of Mr C E Wilson, of Moggil.
Here is a photo of the sons of Charles whose wife was Anna POOK:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article20108985
1887 C8790 Arthur Edward Wilson parents Charles Edward and Anna Pook
1890 C11696 Albert Wilson parents Charles Edward and Anna Pook
1891 C11362 Richard Martin Wilson parents Charles Edward and Anna Pook
So, that’s two POOK’S he’s seen to be related to.
Jamjar
Added: Another person mentioned on page 27 of his record:
1893 C10850 Alice Undine Wilson parents Charles Edward and Anna Pook
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Now his parents actually came from your records
I don’t know who his folks were. I’m just working on what was posted on your old thread.
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar,
This is what i cut and copied from a previous conversation.
RootsChat Aristocrat
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Posts: 2,017
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
Re: Thomas Roper
« Reply #1 on: Monday 27 April 15 00:40 BST (UK) »
Quote
Hi,
Do you know his parents' names please?
Edit to add, from QLD BDM Online:
I think his mother is Anna POOK who was first married to Charles Edward WILSON and then to James ROPER.
Anna POOK and Charles Edward WILSON being the parents of Alice Undine WILSON, the name mentioned in Thomas' war service record..
I have not found Thomas' birth under any of the posted surname.
Possibly you have this information already.
Leanne
I had no idea of his parents names until this information.
Now, i'm on Ancestry and have spoken to a "Pook" member of family. He told me that Hannah Pook, a sister to Ann Pook married Charles Edward Wilson. She APPARENTLY was married under the name of Anna Pook. He told me that this makes it difficult as members get mixed up between Hannah and Ann Pook who married James Roper!!
But if this is so, why did Thomas Ropers WW1 Record say that his mail was to go c/- Charles E. Wilson........it makes no sense.
Also, you tell me that Ann Roper died in 1915, but her name was "Roper" when she died, so....wouldn't her surname be Wilson, if she actually re-married to Charles?
I do hope i'm not wearing you out? Much thanks for your help and patience. My Best Cinny22
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I think the Hannah is correct for the wife of Charles and will be Ann’s sister.
His folks are supposedly deceased and C/- is an uncle and aunt. Makes sense. The question is more why he then has an aunt as NOK. ;D
Jamjar
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Hi there,
:)
Re the information on those Queensland death certs .... the question asked was likely similar to the question asked in NSW at that time ... it was basically a question as to the children of the marriage ... so children born outside of a marriage, were often NOT recorded on the d.c. for one or both parents.
May I suggest you have a good inspection of the d.c. to check the full heading of that column ...
JM
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Hi Jamjar,
This is what i cut and copied from a previous conversation.
RootsChat Aristocrat
******
Posts: 2,017
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
View Profile Personal Message (Offline)
Re: Thomas Roper
« Reply #1 on: Monday 27 April 15 00:40 BST (UK) »
Quote
Hi,
Do you know his parents' names please?
Edit to add, from QLD BDM Online:
I think his mother is Anna POOK who was first married to Charles Edward WILSON and then to James ROPER.
Anna POOK and Charles Edward WILSON being the parents of Alice Undine WILSON, the name mentioned in Thomas' war service record..
I have not found Thomas' birth under any of the posted surname.
Possibly you have this information already.
Leanne
I had no idea of his parents names until this information.
Now, i'm on Ancestry and have spoken to a "Pook" member of family. He told me that Hannah Pook, a sister to Ann Pook married Charles Edward Wilson. She APPARENTLY was married under the name of Anna Pook. He told me that this makes it difficult as members get mixed up between Hannah and Ann Pook who married James Roper!!
But if this is so, why did Thomas Ropers WW1 Record say that his mail was to go c/- Charles E. Wilson........it makes no sense.
Also, you tell me that Ann Roper died in 1915, but her name was "Roper" when she died, so....wouldn't her surname be Wilson, if she actually re-married to Charles?
I do hope i'm not wearing you out? Much thanks for your help and patience. My Best Cinny22
from the other thread ...
Funeral announcement Queenslander 19 June 1915
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22298061
ROPER -29th of May, at Brisbane, Ann Roper, widow of the late James Roper, of Gowrie, Darling Downs, aged 49 years.
ADD
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/174896293 7 Nov 1908 with Probate announcement re James Roper's death as 23 Oct 1904 (of Gowrie Estate)
Add
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1942-23668-46273-24?cc=1927198
Cheers, JM
JM
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................
Now, i'm on Ancestry and have spoken to a "Pook" member of family. He told me that Hannah Pook, a sister to Ann Pook married Charles Edward Wilson. She APPARENTLY was married under the name of Anna Pook. He told me that this makes it difficult as members get mixed up between Hannah and Ann Pook who married James Roper!..........Cinny22[/quote]
The above is correct.
Probate for Charles Edward WILSON was granted to his widow Anna WILSON.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/20570238
Rhonda
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:)
Anna WILSON 1938 d.c. is reference B41548, and the Qld online index has her parents as John POOK and Ann BENNETT.
ADD
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38705506 Courier Mail 28 Oct 1938
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/38709955 Courier Mail 19 Nov 1938.
JM
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Yes, i believe Ann Roper nee Pook, is the same.............very difficult situation when both Sisters use this Christian name. Cinny22
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Yes, i believe Ann Roper nee Pook, is the same.............very difficult situation when both Sisters use this Christian name. Cinny22
:) :) Their surnames are different after marriage, and that is significant. Their ages would be different too, so it should not be a very difficult situation once you have the actual bdm documents to validate your research.
JM
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Have you found RChat's Queensland Resources useful?
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369972.0
JM
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Yes, the resources are great as this is where i got the Death dates and Marriages from, but even after getting the Death Certificate and talking to other members of the Pook, and Roper families......over a period, i still can't find out where Thomas Roper actually came from.............it still remains a mystery.
You all have been such a help, and i have ALWAYS been given leads and information to follow up, but it seems this time, it's just not out there.
Perhaps, he was adopted and with out "papers" on this or parents known, we will never find the answers.
Thank you............Cinny22
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Perhaps the Qld BDM did not receive/did not process the paperwork registering Thomas' birth ... or perhaps the handwriting was err .... hard to decipher .... perhaps Thomas' parents did not realise they needed to register the birth ... :)
BUT you likely will need the death cert for Thomas' mum to know if he is noted there as a child of her marriage. :)
JM
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I did a search using only the birth date and THOMAS and there are only three births:
1899 C3869 Thomas Barnes parents Thomas and Ellen Tansey
1899 B63876 Thomas Lawrence parents Olsen Erick Olaf and Mary Brown
1899 B63901 Joseph Thomas parents Cairns William and Weir Alice
The birth date could be incorrect, though. He wouldn’t be the first to lie about his age to get into the military at a younger age.
Jamjar
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Thanks Majm, and others............will take your advice and order the Death Certificate of Ann Roper (1915)
This will be my last and only chance of securing his family.
Will let you all know the results at a later date. Fingers X'ed!!
Thanks for your help and information...........Cinny22
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Are you aware that you can pay for and immediately download the certs online. It’s cheaper.
Jamjar
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Thank you Jamjar for your devotion and information. I will do as Majm and you have suggested and get the Death Certificate for Ann Roper. I can't know for sure if he was their child, until i get this Certificate.
No, i did not know that getting a "download" of a Certificate is cheaper............i will look into it tomorrow.
Best wishes and thanks to you all...............Cinny22
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Hi Everyone,
Just continuing on from my Thomas Roper theme. UNFORTUNATELY, I received the Death Certificate for Thomas's supposed mother.........Ann Roper, nee Pook (D.1915) who married James.
I'm sorry to let you all know, that no children are listed on this Certificate, so no easy road.
Is there any way now that we can possibly find the parents of Thomas?
You thoughts will be invaluable.
My Best, Cinny22.
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That’s disappointing, indeed. :(
I can’t think of any way forward.
Jamjar
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Queensland historical records
Thomas Vincent Roper
Death 19/8/1985
Date of birth 1900
Outside possibility if desperate? Ready to be shot down in flames!
Vincent Rogers
Birth date 3/3/1900
Mother Kezia Jane Rogers
Mother said to have married John Hamilton? (October, same year)
Also, Thomas Vincent Cockerill, mother Mary Cockerill, but d-o-b is 9/2/98
(Actually there are quite a few Thomas Vincents)
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Dear jonw65,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. Just as a matter of facts: Thomas Roper to my knowledge only started to use the "Vincent" section of his name around the late 50's very early 60's............for reasons known only to him self. Not sure if it has any "bearing" on his birth etc. I know he did not use it in his Army Records, for both Wars.
If only there was a small "lead" to his identity. I guess if he was adopted legally, there would be a trace, but not sure even if this is so.............i know many families just took people in if they could.
Not really sure now whether to give up on this, it all seems so helpless.
Many thanks once again. Cinny22
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Hi Cinny
It is possible your Thomas discovered or knew the ROPERs were not his real parents and later in life found VINCENT was part of his real name.
Rhonda
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Hi
If Thomas was adopted by the Ropers I guess that there would be nothing formal to find (going on the UK, where that would start in 1927)
It's the best I could come up with, just trying to keep it going! But I don't want to lead you down a blind alley. I did look at one of the trees on ancestry that has Kezia Jane Rogers, and there was no mention of a son Vincent on that (don't know about the others).
Her likely parents (Edward, Phoebe) may have been in Geebung, Brisbane, in 1903, which is supposed to have been the residence of James Roper when he married in 1894. How big was Brisbane back then?
Next door suburb(?) is Zillmere, mentioned in the death announcement of James, 1904, and maybe where Kezia's married brother was living. Haven't gone into the rest of them! Do you know when the Ropers left that area for Toowoomba?
John
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Hi Everyone,
Just continuing on from my Thomas Roper theme. UNFORTUNATELY, I received the Death Certificate for Thomas's supposed mother.........Ann Roper, nee Pook (D.1915) who married James.
I'm sorry to let you all know, that no children are listed on this Certificate, so no easy road.
Is there any way now that we can possibly find the parents of Thomas?
You thoughts will be invaluable.
My Best, Cinny22.
May I ask for the name of the informant and their relationship to Ann as per her d.c. I am wondering if that informant would have actually known of Thomas ...
Formal adoptions commenced in the 1920s here in Australia.
JM
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Thank you for all your thoughts. Have tried to sent you the Death of Ann Roper.......apparently the "file" is too big. i did change this "file" to JPG, but it did not help. The informant on Ann Roper's Death Certificate was her sister Ann Wilson. By the way Ann Roper nee Pook died of Cancer of the Breast, but she was in a Dementia Hospital!
It's a funny thing that no one in these families have heard about Thomas? I can't see how he would put in his Army Records that both his parents were dead, especially as James and Ann Roper, WERE.........especially to, if they were no relation to him. Then as for the Roberts also not to acknowledge him...........it's a bit "baffling" especially when he acknowledges that his Aunt is Elizabeth Roberts and his mail was going to his "other" Aunt Anna Wilson nee Pook.
If he had absolutely no relationship with these family of Roper...........why would he just make up these stories for his Records............there has to be a "smidgen" of truth some where here???
You are all amazing!! Thank you for everything. Cinny22 ::)
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:) :) family history ... agh well, you may well come across similar apparent confuddlements in your researchings, and it can be a brickwall ... but often it is all in how the questions were posed, who posed them, who answered, and what were the then laws, regulations and social norms that influenced the answers.
There were still people familiar with using 'thy' and 'thee' in normal conversations when I was growing up in the 1950s ... So if someone asked me about 'thy' mother, I would expect they were asking me about MY mum, but if someone asked about 'the' mother, I would need to ask further questions ... which mother, mine, his, hers, etc ... so 'the' mother could be related or not to me ... Same with 'thy children' or 'the children' ... so back in the decade when Mrs Roper died, and her sister Mrs Wilson was the informant, ... Mrs Wilson was likely grieving, trying to organise a funeral and trying to contact everyone ... and perhaps not concentrating on the funeral director's paperwork that he needed to complete... and the 'thee' and 'thy' and 'the' and 'thou' were the words being used.
JM
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By the way Ann Roper nee Pook died of Cancer of the Breast, but she was in a Dementia Hospital!
It’s not Dementia as in senility. I have an ancestor who died there and he had cancer.
It was the name of the hospital. I can’t recall the spelling of it.
Jamjar
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Here it is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamantina_Health_Care_Museum
Jamjar
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Thank you all once again. Was very interesting reading............the hospital. Thank you. Cinny22.
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Do you know when the Ropers left that area for Toowoomba?
To answer my own question, circa 1901/2
Electoral registers
James Roper listed in Geebung in 1901
James/Ann Roper listed Gowrie Estate in 1903
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Hi jonw65,
Thank you for this information. Now i'm not sure just when the Ropers left Toowoomba, but i know that James died there in 1904, and i'm not sure if Ann stayed or not. But she did pass away in Brisbane.......
Cinny22
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Hi
It does look between 1901 and 1903
1901 Queensland Directory
Towns Gee-Geo
Geebung, Moreton dist. 8 m. N. fr. Brisbane by rail.
(I'm learning!)
About 30 names listed, nearly all farmers
Including
Roper James, farmer
(and Roger Edward, farmer, for info as well)
(Apparently the population in 1911 was 207)
John
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Ann sells up in 1907?
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/184883625
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Perhaps this chap Thomas Vincent COCKERILL is worth a look.
Birth a year out so...... ::)
Thomas Vincent COCKERILL
Birth Date 9 Feb 1898
Mother Mary COCKERILL
Father-
Page Number 4776
Registration Number B062299
He was born in the Brisbane are where the COCKERILL family lived as did the ROPERs.
There had been a previous birth to Mary COCKERILL in 1892, a son who died in infancy.
I think this might be Mary's birth.
1870 B10916
Mary COCKERILL
Parents John & Annie GRAHAM.
She may have married in later life, but I cannot find anything of Thomas Vincent COCKERILL.
A thought anyway.
Like the ROPERs the COCKERILLs owned land in Fortitude Valley in the early days.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/1267765
Sue
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if Ann stayed or not.
She may well be the Ann Roper in Campbell Street, Oakey, Darling Downs, in 1908. Not gone far.
A Mrs Roper was one of ladies of the Methodist Church Aid Society helping out at a Christmas event in Oakey in 1909 (she was providing afternoon tea)
On Vincent Rogers, born 3/3/1900
I haven't been able to eliminate him yet.
Presuming (always a dangerous thing to do!) that his mother, Kezia Jane, is the daughter of Edward Rogers of Geebung, the lady who married John Hamilton in October 1910 in Brisbane.
She died in 1930, death reg (Kezia Jane Hamilton) confirms her parents.
Her funeral notice has no mention of Vincent
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/21561476?
There is the coincidence of the 3rd March date of birth of Vincent, and Geebung (the Ropers must have known the Rogers). Did the childless Ropers take the illegitimate grandson of their neighbours away with them to Toowoomba? Unless or until someone can find out anything new, I would keep him mind.
John
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Hi John and all,
I really don't know how you all do it, the info you all come up with is amazing. Much more than i could EVER find. I really do think he was definitely adopted and the Rogers family is looking good, but as you say, i WILL keep an open mind.......thanks greatly. Shirley.