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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Lensmeister on Tuesday 30 October 18 14:41 GMT (UK)
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Very interesting article
https://paulbigland.blog/2018/10/30/digging-up-graveyards-for-hs2-its-not-as-if-it-hasnt-been-done-before/
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Thanks Lensmeister for this link.
Whilst I'm always keen to see archeological digs going on to unearth our early history HS2 is quite another matter!
I also enjoyed the links within the link, if that makes sense, especially reading about Kensal Green where my 2x gt grandmother is buried, yet to be visited.
When I first discovered her burial I was most intrigued to find the person listed directly after her was Rev Baden Powell, the father of the Scout movement founder.
I did wonder how my 2x gt grandmother was buried in such a prestigious cemetery when, from what I've gathered so far, she appears to be just an ordinary soul of little note!
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Yep it's a good read.
I have recently found on of my Hugkulstones maybe buried in Brompton !!! :o
I thought others might like the read too.
I have commented that Brookwood wasn't one of the Magnificent Seven.
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Good morning.
Just not sure if this is the right thread or not.
Has anyone been watching The Big Dig with Alice Roberts? We are finding it fascinating TV.
I'd be interested to hear other viewers in-put.
Judy
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I've been watching it, and several similar programmes, but last evening I got round to watching the "Bone Detectives" I'd recorded - you know, where a blonde female mortuary technician nods madly as the experts all explain everything to each other - and decided not to set any more of those to record!
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last evening I got round to watching the "Bone Detectives" I'd recorded - you know, where a blonde female mortuary technician nods madly as the experts all explain everything to each other - and decided not to set any more of those to record!
We did exactly the same, in fact we also stopped watching about 20 minutes in, it was so appalling.
By contrast 'Britain's Biggest Dig' was fascinating.
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So glad it wasn't just me! I became obsessed with the woman's nodding, OH by her tattoos!
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Good morning.
Just not sure if this is the right thread or not.
Has anyone been watching The Big Dig with Alice Roberts? We are finding it fascinating TV.
I'd be interested to hear other viewers in-put.
Judy
We are watching the programmes.
Interesting, yet sad that the resting places are being disturbed for a dubious transport project.
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The last three words very true! What a lot of money could be redirected if the project was to be abandoned ... but "they" will say they've gone too far along the road to pull back now, of course.
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Good morning.
Just not sure if this is the right thread or not.
Has anyone been watching The Big Dig with Alice Roberts? We are finding it fascinating TV.
I'd be interested to hear other viewers in-put.
Judy
We are watching the programmes.
Interesting, yet sad that the resting places are being disturbed for a dubious transport project.
I usually enjoy archeology programmes, but not the big dig: probably because I believe the bones are to be re-buried in a different county.
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Very interesting article
https://paulbigland.blog/2018/10/30/digging-up-graveyards-for-hs2-its-not-as-if-it-hasnt-been-done-before/
Fascinating link, thank you.
In the mid 1960s there were plans for a dual carriageway to connect the Coast Road from Tynemouth with the Central Motorway East along a widened Jesmond Road, encroaching on part of the cemetery. In 1967 the private company was wound up and returned to the City Council. About 600 graves (nearly 1,100 burials) some more than 100 years old, would need to be exhumed and reinterred, and John Dobson’s magnificent entrance gateway and chapels would have to be moved.
Notices were issued and the attempts made to contact the relatives of the burials involved. Relatives were given the option to carry out removals to any other cemetery, or to allow a transfer to another part of the cemetery. The Council undertook to re-erect all monuments and tombstones unless in a ruinous condition. Years later the number of unclaimed graves was ‘considerable’, and of those families successfully contacted only two opted for private removal. Only one was ‘not keen to have remains disturbed’. The rest of the tombs had to be moved without consent.
The estimated cost of re-siting the gateway and chapels amounted to £100,000. Because the buildings were of exceptional architectural and historical importance the Environment Minister offered a 75 per cent grant to re-site them. In 1971 work began on the removal of the graves, ‘with the utmost reverence’ by the London Necropolis Company. Public access was not allowed. All soil was sifted for remains which were then re-coffined and reburied. The work on the Jesmond Road border took several months. At a later date more exhumations took place on the Sandyford Road and in the South West area. Eventually the whole bypass scheme collapsed because of legal difficulties and when the project was resurrected nearly 30 years later the ‘dualling’ of Jesmond Road and the widening of Sandyford Road never took place.
https://www.geni.com/projects/Jesmond-Old-Cemetery-Burials/29648
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"Central Motorway East" I guess that is the road my mother used to complain about that was driven through the centre of Newcastle? Was it originally going to carry the A1?
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Has anyone heard anything about when the coffin plaques they found at the excavation of the St James' Cemetery are going to be displayed?
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The last three words very true! What a lot of money could be redirected if the project was to be abandoned ... but "they" will say they've gone too far along the road to pull back now, of course.
There are at least two practical problems with abandonment, and believve me as a former rail worker I firmly believe that a project to speed up the railway could have been implemented at a materially lower cost than the sums spent on HS2, but that is another argument!
In my opinion "They" ie HMGovernment of whatever colour believe they have gone too far along the road to pull back now.
They probably have for at the very least these reasons:
1) Contractual obligations, in that if the project were to be abandoned now, the recipients of the contracts would sue (and win) for breach of contract. Not only would the contractors be compensated, they would also receive their legal cost which would be high to say the least.
2) This (1 above) could be overcome if the government involved was prepared to pass laws forbidding any case resulting from the abandonment to come to court if, they could get it through parliament and were prepared to show that they were an anti democratic authoritarian government, I don't think fortunately that either party would want this label available to their opponents to use.
So, where next, and in future? Before they ever surfact major projects must be subject to a real and meaningful public scrutiny with measures in place to overcome the all to often seen "nimbyism"
Difficult, but in the long term best.Any government should be prepared to take difficult decisions for the public good, even if that goos is in the very long term, which I do not believe was the case for HS2.
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With all the technology that we have these days it shouldn't be difficult to design elevate railway lines, similar to the ones Japan has had for decades
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If I had my way, then HS2 would be interred in a cemetery :o
I live in Tamworth and we are surrounded by problems caused by the dreaded HS2. What is even worse is, that when/if it is finally up and running, then we will have to travel to Birmingham to access it. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :-X
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If I had my way, then HS2 would be interred in a cemetery :o
I live in Tamworth and we are surrounded by problems caused by the dreaded HS2. What is even worse is, that when/if it is finally up and running, then we will have to travel to Birmingham to access it. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :-X
Despite denials I have always thought that this railway line is the result of London house prices being too high for most people who work in London and who need cheaper housing..
The television didn't give any publicity to the group of railway workers who once appeared on television to outline their cheaper alternative.
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With all the technology that we have these days it shouldn't be difficult to design elevate railway lines, similar to the ones Japan has had for decades.
Try and sell that proposal to anyone near the route - it would probably get stronger objections than HS2, which is, and always has been, a Vanity Project with artificial 'benefits'.
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I can't comment on HS2 being a vanity project, or the politics involved, and I do appreciate that it is very disruptive for those in its path. But we also need to upgrade our rail network and other infrastructure projects; the trouble is that we have so little space not already in use or beloved for some other reason.
I live in Kent, and well remember the outcry and protests over the building of HS1 and the Channel Tunnel rail link to Europe. 20 odd years on, the railway takes up no more space than the Victorian lines, and many of us happily use the "high speed" line to London, which also gives us much easier access to railway lines North and West. (I remember having to cross London from Victoria to King's Cross with 2 children and the luggage!) I have never used the cross Channel link, which was easily accessed at Ashford, but unfortunately that facility seems to have gone.
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I can't comment on HS2 being a vanity project, or the politics involved, and I do appreciate that it is very disruptive for those in its path. But we also need to upgrade our rail network and other infrastructure projects; the trouble is that we have so little space not already in use or beloved for some other reason.
We could have 'upgraded' (rather than added to) our network by improving the Euston to Birmingham line, for much less outlay than HS2 calls for. More of the route was quadruple back in the 1950s ; parts were later reduced to double, and 20-30 years ago some were put back to quadruple to relieve congestion. Spending billions for another (only partially separate) route just to save 10 or 15 minutes on a relatively short journey gives very poor value for money. That is why it is called a Vanity Project, as much of its political value is to show that we can imitate the French - who have rather more space to do it in.
As things stand, HS2 will not even reach an existing terminus (unlike HS1) and trains will end in west London somewhere near Ealing. And of course it will have only negative benefit for those disrupted by its passage nearby, as they can't use it - no stations !
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I do accept all you say, Andrew, and the whole thing seems to be descending into farce. By the time it is "finished" the world will have changed!
I like your comment about imitating the French who have more space. When HS1 was being built, people used to say "Why can the French build their side so much quicker?". My reply was to point out that the Pas de Calais is very different from the North Downs in Kent.
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Has anyone heard anything about when the coffin plaques they found at the excavation of the St James' Cemetery are going to be displayed?
I think you need to ask that question in a new post rather than adding it to this old 2020 post
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We could have 'upgraded' (rather than added to) our network by improving the Euston to Birmingham line, for much less outlay than HS2 calls for. More of the route was quadruple back in the 1950s ; parts were later reduced to double, and 20-30 years ago some were put back to quadruple to relieve congestion. Spending billions for another (only partially separate) route just to save 10 or 15 minutes on a relatively short journey gives very poor value for money. That is why it is called a Vanity Project, as much of its political value is to show that we can imitate the French - who have rather more space to do it in.
As things stand, HS2 will not even reach an existing terminus (unlike HS1) and trains will end in west London somewhere near Ealing. And of course it will have only negative benefit for those disrupted by its passage nearby, as they can't use it - no stations !
That is a very good point, it applies to the West Coast main line, and similarly to the East Coast Main Line. Any government which is serious about upgrading the rail link ought to take a strategic look at the entire network, no doubt a similar situation applies on other routes too, but my rail experience is mainly confined to those 2 routes in particular the ECML where an even better job of upgrading could have been done with more forethought ( like use of former RAF Alconbury and Finningley as an additional London airport, too late for Alconbury now). The big expense of this route would be the quadrupling of Welwyn Viaduct and its approaches.
As regards the foul up in London with no main lines continuous from south of London to the North, blame this on the 19th century House of Lords and in the main the Duke of Westminster who would have vetoed the lines unless they did not cross Euston Road.
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I can't comment on HS2 being a vanity project, or the politics involved, and I do appreciate that it is very disruptive for those in its path. But we also need to upgrade our rail network and other infrastructure projects; the trouble is that we have so little space not already in use or beloved for some other reason.
We could have 'upgraded' (rather than added to) our network by improving the Euston to Birmingham line, for much less outlay than HS2 calls for. More of the route was quadruple back in the 1950s ; parts were later reduced to double, and 20-30 years ago some were put back to quadruple to relieve congestion. Spending billions for another (only partially separate) route just to save 10 or 15 minutes on a relatively short journey gives very poor value for money. That is why it is called a Vanity Project, as much of its political value is to show that we can imitate the French - who have rather more space to do it in.
As things stand, HS2 will not even reach an existing terminus (unlike HS1) and trains will end in west London somewhere near Ealing. And of course it will have only negative benefit for those disrupted by its passage nearby, as they can't use it - no stations !
Have just been catching up with the 3 part series 'Britain's Biggest Dig' on BBC TWO, am I right in thinking that the HS2 terminus will no longer be at Euston, will they turn it back into a park again I wonder :o?! There was an exhibition about the people of the cemetery at St. James' Piccadilly last year, you can see some description and a little video on it below, it says the exhibition transferred to Camden, but not sure where exactly
https://mediacentre.hs2.org.uk/news/new-hs2-exhibition-reveals-the-untold-stories-of-a-london-burial-ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpJK11PzemU
the 3 part series
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000mmrf/britains-biggest-dig
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[quote author=Redroger link=topic=80
As regards the foul up in London with no main lines continuous from south of London to the North, blame this on the 19th century House of Lords and in the main the Duke of Westminster who would have vetoed the lines unless they did not cross Euston Road.
[/quote]
Feeling a little stroppy tonight, so perhaps it would have been a good idea that the lines now be made to cross Euston Road, preferably on level crossings at grade. Imagine what a line straight out of the front of Kings Cross at grade and continuing on to the Southern Termini would do to road traffic, say 60 trains an hour out of the front of Kings Cross for a start.
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Do we actually own anything these days? I thought the French were major shareholders in most things British.
I remember the "Beeching Cuts" to the railways, due to the maintenance being 8 men per mile as opposed to one man per mile to maintain the road network.
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ORR, RSSB and Network Rail do not want new level crossings at all anymore.
Same with 3rd Rail
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Well, I believe that French Railways (Nationalised SNCF) own Eurostar, though it could be another company own by the French Govenment. On the other issues if you get your electricity from EDF (Electricite de France) remember you are subsidising prices to the French people.I am a firm believer in Nationalised Industries provided they are owned by the country they operate in.
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Do we actually own anything these days? I thought the French were major shareholders in most things British.
I remember the "Beeching Cuts" to the railways, due to the maintenance being 8 men per mile as opposed to one man per mile to maintain the road network.
Strange thing was that many of the additional men quoted as 7 extra per mile were due to a variety of saety resrictions imposed over the years by the Parliament which set up the Beeching enquiry.
Times have changed, we are 60 years on, and the Beeching report is irrelevant though it got him his peerage.
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Beeching was the scapegoat.
It was Ernest Marples behind the axing of the railways.
Ernest Marples ... road builder ... hmm makes you think
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Beeching was the scapegoat.
It was Ernest Marples behind the axing of the railways.
Ernest Marples ... road builder ... hmm makes you think
Could be argued that Marples was the scapegoat since ultimately it was a cabinet decision. It got Beeching a peerage £380 a day now approx, and cost Marples his seat also same price + minister's salary.
Some things haven't altered in 100 years.
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In case anyone is wondering:-
"Heathrow Airport Holdings Limited is in turn owned by FGP Topco Limited, a consortium owned and led by the infrastructure specialist Ferrovial S.A. (25.00%), Qatar Investment Authority (20.00%), Caisse de Dépôt et placement du Québec (CDPQ) (12.62%), GIC (11.20%), Australian Retirement Trust (11.18%), China Investment "
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Says it all!
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Beeching was the scapegoat.
It was Ernest Marples behind the axing of the railways.
Ernest Marples ... road builder ... hmm makes you think
Could be argued that Marples was the scapegoat since ultimately it was a cabinet decision. It got Beeching a peerage £380 a day now approx, and cost Marples his seat also same price + minister's salary.
Some things haven't altered in 100 years.
Both Beeching and Marples were scapegoats. Beeching was appointed to BTC in March 1961. The length of route miles closed in 1961, 62, 63 and 1964 were 150, 780, 324 and 1058 miles respectively (total = 2312 miles)
Wilson's government promised to halt the closures when they came to power in October 1964. The route miles closed in 1965, 66, 67 and 1968 were 600, 750, 300 and 400 respectively (total = 2050 miles). Barbara Castle wasn't a road builder in the way Marples was, but Wilson's government were almost as good at closing railways.
For completeness, Marples took office as Transport Minister in 1959. Between 1950 and 1958 there were 1650 route miles closed: Marples wasn't the first Transport Minister to oversee extensive closures.
The truth is somewhere around the fact the UK had a post-war clapped-out* railway network which was far more extensive than needed. The network had developed as a result of capitalist speculation, rather than a proper plan. (*overused and under maintained through the war years)
Someone needed to cut the network down to size and orientate it towards what was needed. Beeching and Marples were the lucky ones who got the job and forevermore will have the role of panto villian.
On the positive side, the closures meant we gained an extensive system of heritage railways so people today can enjoy historic trains in the way they were designed to be used. And Beeching's support for freight containerisation (something he is rarely credited for) has led to us having a rail network where freight container movements have grown to the level where we need to look at projects like HS2 to create additional capacity.
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At the bottom of our street was an extremely busy LNER branch line . A group of us local children stood with our notebooks and pencils collecting engine numbers as the trains whistled passed us, whether they were long goods trains from the dockyards or passenger trains from the town centre.
When I researched my maternal great grandfather, I found that there was a railway line in the factory yard where he worked and, in fact, many other companies such as timber companies had lines that led directly onto the docks.
Looking at an old image of the LNER railway lines in relation with other lines, it can be seen that they more or less mimic the cog wheels of an old pocket watch with each cog/line interacting with other cogs/lines. When Beeching cut off the "feeder" lines many main railway lines ran at a loss.