RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: gcaso7176 on Tuesday 30 October 18 19:23 GMT (UK)
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Hello!
I have this drawing of a family crest I am trying to identify. After doing some research, I realize that it is probably actually not finished. There is no surname/family name on the Crest, but I really would appreciate any and all help in identifying this in any way! I really need and would love to know more about this. Thank you!
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Where was it found, what are family surnames you know of, all of which may help identifying what it represents?
Annie
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Don,t know a lot about heraldry,there is a RootsChatter who really is very well informed, with a bit of luck they will see your post and be able to help.
My twopennorth for what it is worth , the stag at the very top could be the symbol of The White Hart,that was Richard The Second,Richard of Bordeaux
the son of The Black Prince.
There is a crown under the hart which may denote royalty or royal connections.
There is a special name for. The three flower like things on the diagonal bar.
I used to think that the left sloping bar was an indication that there was illegitimacy somewhere- the bar sinister but the expert I have mentioned said that was not the case.
Scroll back through,it must be several months ago but the person I mentioned has obviously done a great deal of work and iis really very
knowledgeable.
Best of luck.Viktoria.
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Are the 5 petalled flowers mean to be cinquefoils?
http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en-NZ&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=cinquefoil+in+heraldry&gbv=2&oq=cinquefoil+in+her&gs_l=heirloom-hp.1.0.0i22i30l7.1376.7659.0.11443.17.17.0.0.0.0.744.2435.3-2j1j1j1.5.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..12.5.2435.SbPvwbTvnok
Without any colours on the design, it might be a bit more difficult.
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Hi Annie!
I have no idea what surnames would be associated with it. This was found in the pages of an antique book called "Songs of the Heart" published in New York in 1872. The book was a gift for Christmas 1871 to 'Katie' from someone whose name I cannot identify. Please see the attached pictures to. Thanks!
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It seems to be drawn and colored with brown and black if you zoom in. How would I go back and find the RootsChatter? What topic or thread would that be under? I'm new to this site, so any help is appreciated! And that would be amazing if it was The White Hart, along with all of the other info you said! I'm not sure if they're meant to be cinquefoils or not. It seems that the drawing of those flowers varies quite a bit.
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This link states how different colors are represented in Heraldry when colour not available.
https://www.houseofnames.com/blogs/Colors-of-Heraldry
So I assume this is a black background (sable) with a white band across it with the little flowers.
Not much help I know but it's something!
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There is something not quite right,the book was published 1872 but was gifted Christmas 1871.
Wonder how that could be.
Viktoria.
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The heraldic blazon would read:
Sable, on a bend argent 3 cinquefoils.
The representation of colours in simple pen and ink is called Hatching.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching_(heraldry)
I think the bend (the correct name for the stripe!) is cotised?
That is ther are 2 smaller bends outside the bend itself.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bend_(heraldry)
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There was an American family called Betts who had a similar coat-of-arms.
They are on this page:
https://www.americanheraldry.org/heraldry-in-the-usa/roll-of-early-american-arms/b
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Got it! ;D ;D
BETTS.
Thomas Betts, from England 1639, founder of Guilford, Connecticut.
Anus — Sable, on a bend argent, three cinquefoils gules.
Crest — Out of a ducal coronet or, a buck's head gules attired or, collared argent.
N.B.
Gules = red
Or = gold
Attired = the stags horns
Argent = silver
Sable = black
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There is something not quite right,the book was published 1872 but was gifted Christmas 1871.
Wonder how that could be.
Viktoria.
That is Santa at work! ;D
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It is a little tougher without knowing any of the colors.
On the assumption that the shield is correctly hatched (a system of varying lines to denote the colors), then the shield is sable, or black.
Looking up in Papworth's Ordinary of British Armorials, and assuming the flowers on the bend are cinquefoils, we find the following:
Sable on a bend argent three cinquefoils gules (black shield, white bend, red flowers), for Betts and Dintres/Dyntres/Dyntees/Dyntrees/Dyntrey (these last are all probably spelling variants of the same name)
Sable on a bend argent three cinquefoils sable (black field, white bend, black flowers), for Berendon/Berondon
If the flowers are meant to be roses, then we have:
Sable on a bend argent three roses gules (black field, white bend, red roses), for Roos/Rosse/Roose/Rose, and Edward Smallwell, Bishop of St. David's 1783.
According to Fairbairn's Crests, the crest of A stag's head collared was borne by Stanley. (Which, alas, does not match any of the names we potentially found for the arms!)
Now, that said, I went and looked at some coats of arms as used in the United States, and found this:
Sable on a bend argent three cinquefoils (cited in Crozier's General Armory and Bolton's American Armory), and a related coat, Sable on a bend argent three cinquefoils gules all within a bordure engrailed argent (cited in Matthew's American Armoury and Blue Book and McKenzie's Colonial Families of the United States of America. Both of these coats of arms are associated with the crest Issuant from a ducal coronet or a buck's head gules attired or gorged argent, which design matches your illustration.
Both of these shields, and the crests, are all ascribed to the surname: Betts.
So, assuming that the shield is supposed to be black (and that is only an assumption right now), the shield and crest probably belong to someone in the Betts family, members of whom came to America at the latest before 1687, when Daniel Betts married Mary Fish in Newtown, Massachusetts Bay.
I hope that this information is helpful to you. If you have any questions about anything I've said here, or if I can be of further assistance, please let me know.
David
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Thankyou davidbappleton and KGarrad.
I was searching for you to ask if you could help with this.
Viktoria.
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Thank you all for your incredible help!! This is more information than I ever expected to receive!! If I may ask some follow up questions, please.
What is argent, or, and NB?
So I guess the consensus is that this crest belongs to the Betts family? Where did you look up those details about the family themselves? It's just that, when I have a historical item and I know who/what family it belongs to, I like to know as much about them as possible so that I can know and appreciate them better.
Also, this may be a simple question, but can you please explain the parts of the coats of arms to me? Is the sable the diagonal line that the flowers are on? What are cinquefoil gules? What does "Issuant from a ducal coronet or a buck's head gules attired or gorged argent" mean? Is that quoted directly from the book? I apologize for the simple nature of these questions, but I am a newbie when it comes to this.
And also, the Betts family came to America before 1687, but at the very latest then, correct? Or is 1639 more accurate?
Any idea where I can find out more about the family, and can possible look for those two names I have so I can look for a link between the book itself and the family? Can you possibly make out the second name on that book inscription?
Thank you!!
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Also, the book was published in 1871! Here's a picture of the backside of the publication page.
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A quick Google search of "betts family" shows this link: https://www.billputman.com/Betts.pdf
Does this line up with the other history about the Betts who founded Guilford, Connecticut?
Many thanks, as always!
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Also, from the website http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Betts they mention the crest: "A Coat of Arms granted to a Betts family from Suffolk is described thus: "Sable (black) on a bend argent (silver) three cinquefoils gules (red) all within a bordure engrailed of the second. Crest - Out of a ducal coronet or (gold), a buck's head gules attired gold"."
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NB is short for the Latin "Nota Bene", meaning note well.
It's fairly standard in English ;D
The background of the shield is black (sable).
On this is a white (argent or silver) diagonal bar, or Bend.
And on the bend are 3 red (gules) cinquefoils (which is a flower of 5 petals).
The crest is the part that sits on the helmet.
It consists of a buck's head (a male deer) in red (gules) with gold antlers (attired or).
Gorged means collared, and the collar is white or silver (argent).
A good place to find these, and other, heraldic descriptions is "Parker's Glossary of Terms Used in Heraldry":
https://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/Jpglossc.htm
Also, please remember that coats-of-arms do NOT belong to a surname ;D
They were originally granted to a named individual, and only his (usually) male descendants have the right to display the arms.
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Thanks so much, KGarrad!! I appreciate you explaining it all to me. And that website is useful as well.
So since this is a coat of arms, how would one go about determining which member of the Betts family this belonged to? Or could it have been for multiple male descendants?
Thank you!
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A coat-of-Arms normally follows the eldest son, down through the generations.
Other sons may have the same CoA, but Differenced or with Cadency marks.
Reference books on Armorial Bearings may give clues.
Davidbappleton mentioned some.
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Here's what my father had to say:
I would say the illustration is somewhat imprecise but may be described as SABLE, ON A BEND ARGENT 3 FLOWERS. That is a black shield with a white stripe on which there are 3 flowers of no obvious colour.
In the recently published authoratative "Dictionary of British Arms"which tries to record all arms up to 1530 the only flowers on a bend are roses which are different to the flowers in your illustration.I think therefore that the flowers are in fact cinquefoils which are sort of 5 leaved shamrocks usually abrieviated as 5foils.This leads me to
Sable on a bend argent 3 5foils azure (blue)pierced or (gold) for Roos.
Sable on a bend argent 3 5foils gules (red) for Gegge
Sable on a bend argent 3 pierced 5foils gules for Dintres
Sable on a bend argent 3 5foils or for Roos
Sable on a bend argent 3 pierced 5foils or for Roos
Turning to the 19th. century Papworth's Ordinary of Arms which includes some arms later than 1530 but is less authortative I find
Sable on a bend argent3 5foils also sable for Berondon
Papworth also refers to Dintres,Dyntres,Dintrees and Dentrey.
This is about it but I think the family of Roos mentioned above is not the baronial family of that name who had entirely different arms.
Hope this helps.Pierced means there is a hole through the centre of the 5foil hich is coloured differentlly or allows the background colour to show through.
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In addition, I talked with my dad about the apparent double border on the bend but he couldn't come up with anything additional based on that. We also talked about the fact that this could just be a doodle by someone who fancied a coat of arms but didn't have one and the fact that it could be an arms from many different countries - as evidenced by the former comments regarding the american family using a similar coat of arms.
He wasn't able to shed any light on the crest with the stag and crown but he said he does have a book about crests which he will try to find.
I think it's also worth noting that a coat of arms is granted to a specific family - not to a specific surname so that if your name is one of those in my previous reply it doesn't mean that you automatically have the right to the coat of arms - however, from a genealogical perspective it is nice to wonder whether and how you may be related to that family.
I hope a little piece of something may be helpful.
Louise
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Sorry I am not able to provide any insight about this family crest. Reading through all the posts I I don't have any information to add. Wish you the best of luck in attempting to sort this out.
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Not sure if you're looking for any other information at this point, but yes, this is a Betts crest. I have an original hand colored, finished version that was given to my grandfather back in the 1950s I believe. I also have a signet ring with the same image and motto Malo Mori Quam Foedari. I believe there is a large version of this image or carving in possession of the owners of Wortham Manor, the Betts Homestead in Suffolk (near Diss). A cousin of mine visited in the 1980s and helped to fund the restoration of the piece that was hanging above the fireplace in that house. The ownership has changed since then, so I don't know what happened to it. The Betts family in America did not actually descend directly from the Betts of Wortham, but many of the early 20th century genealogies made that assumption which is why that image is associated with Thomas Betts and his descendants.
Suzanne Betts