RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: emmapruen on Thursday 01 November 18 00:26 GMT (UK)
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I'd love to know if anyone can trace the father of my GGGGrandfather James Macpherson? My father and I have been searching for over 10 years and my father is now 80. It would mean so much to me to break though this wall for him.
James was born in 1795, judging by the inscription on his grave in Glasgow Necropolis:
"In memory of James MacPherson, Surgeon Dentist died January 25 1844 aged 48"
He was married to Mary Ann Hart and had 10 children: Janet/Jessie, James, Walter, Agnes, David, Mary Ann, Robert Nasmyth (my GGGrandfather), John, Jane and Jamima.
They were married in Gorbals, where she came from.
Mary Ann's parents were called Walter Hart and Janet Duncan so we see James and Mary Ann named their first and third children after her parents, so we might assume that his father could be called James or David.
His will showed him to be a very rich man, leaving in today's money over £900000, so I'm guessing the father would have been a professional of some kind, which rules out the David Macpherson who was a cloth lapper who had a son James in 1793.
One other clue is that two people who have matched my father on the Y-DNA test had Macpherson ancestors on the East Coast of Scotland around 1770s.
If anyone has any ideas, or has this man in their family tree I would be so grateful if you could share your info with me.
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Sorry I can't help with family but looking at it, there's a strong possibility the scottish naming pattern was at work i.e. I woud envisage the parents of James to have been James & Agnes although I may be wrong?
Annie
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"One other clue is that two people who have matched my father on the Y-DNA test had Macpherson ancestors on the East Coast of Scotland around 1770s"
Have you been in touch with those matches to enquire?
This is surprising (to me) as I was of the belief the name M(a)cPherson was more likely from the Highlands of Scotland which is a good distance from East?
Annie
Add...Having re-read your post, people of course moved i.e. it's possible the matches had moved from other areas?
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Thinking the same as you Annie.
there is this marriage near Perth
MCPHERSON
JAMES
AGNES WHITTET/
00/10/1777
392/
10 446
St Madoes
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The Scottish naming tradition is that the first born son is named after paternal grandfather, in this case indicating that James' father was named James.
You don't mention that on the 1841 census James is stated to have been born in Lanarkshire.
Annette
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there is this marriage near Perth
MCPHERSON
JAMES
AGNES WHITTET/
00/10/1777
392/
10 446
St Madoes
I'm not too convinced on this as "James was born in 1795, judging by the inscription on his grave" although there may have been quite a few siblings?
Annie
Add...Thanks Annette, just got alert, useful info!
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"He was married to Mary Ann Hart and had 10 children: Janet/Jessie, James, Walter, Agnes, David, Mary Ann, Robert Nasmyth (my GGGrandfather), John, Jane and Jamima.
They were married in Gorbals, where she came from."
When were they married, where/when were all the children born & are there any clues with sponsors of baptisms with family names?
Annie
Edit to add, I've found some of the children...
Children of James McPherson & Mary Ann Hart
All born Glasgow
Janet 1826
James 1827
Walter 1830
Agnes 1832
Robert Nasmyth 1838
John Duncan 1839
Jane 1841
Jamima Margaret (sic) 1843
I failed to find David & Mary Ann i.e. possibly not baptised/records lost/illegible?
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Might it be worth seeing if there is any record of him in the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons? I don't know if they hold historical records or where they might be located.
If you have not already done so, it might be an idea to seek out all of the original records for his marriage, children's births and death in case any of them contain any other snippet of information which may help.
(I would not say it necessarily follows that his father would have been a professional - best to keep an open mind). :)
Added: Looks like you need to contact the Archivist:
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/a83b9269-0292-3f6d-8637-d385dcf35b37
(I have no clue if these records, if any exist, would be of any use)
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Emma, the merchants laid out the Necropolis as their own kirkyard at the Ramshorn Church was full. Is the father buried at the Ramshorn & was possibly a merchant & did he buy the lair at the Necropolis? There won't be many merchants of that name?
The Mitchell Library should have this info' or possibly the Merchant's House which has a charitable MacPherson Trust.
Skoosh.
A Rootschat query for "MacPherson!" in 2010 has James MacPherson son of John MacPherson & Jean Drummond, Gorbals mentioned also. Plus an Arthur MacPherson whose ancestor had a shipyard on the Clyde, introduced football to Russia!
Enter "Macpherson Gorbals" in the Rootschat search-box!
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"A Rootschat query has James MacPherson son of John MacPherson & Jean Drummond"
Skoosh, different era...
From OP...
"James was born in 1795, judging by the inscription"
Link to other post;
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=472610.msg3324016#msg3324016
"James McPHERSON b 29 Jul 1829, Greenock - parents John McPHERSON & Jean DRUMMOND"
Annie
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"Jean MacPherson is a person wi luvly yella herr, we went thegither doon the watter last Glesga Ferr!"
Skoosh.
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Hi Annie I’ve been an idiot (or it was just late at night) I meant to say West coast. And yes I’ve been in touch with the DNA matches with no luck.
However I did find a newspaper clipping last night which said James Macpherson was dentist to the great families of the west of Scotland which makes me even more sure his family was from the West and he moved to Glasgow to practice. "One other clue is that two people who have matched my father on the Y-DNA test had Macpherson ancestors on the East Coast of Scotland around 1770s"
Have you been in touch with those matches to enquire?
This is surprising (to me) as I was of the belief the name M(a)cPherson was more likely from the Highlands of Scotland which is a good distance from East?
Annie
Add...Having re-read your post, people of course moved i.e. it's possible the matches had moved from other areas?
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However I did find a newspaper clipping last night which said James Macpherson was dentist to the great families of the west of Scotland which makes me even more sure his family was from the West and he moved to Glasgow to practice.
He didn't need to move if, as the 1841 census says, he was born in Lanarkshire. Lanarkshire including Glasgow is in the West of Scotland already.
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Hi, Annie
James is a forbear of my son-in-law, through Robert Nasmyth Macpherson.
I can’t be sure as to James' parents - there are several James Macphersons recorded as born in Lanarkshire around 1793. However, there is evidence to suggest that he was the son of the textile worker David McPherson and Agnes Walker, both formerly of the parish of Buchanan, Stirling, on the east bank of Loch Lomond.
Although the year of James’ death is not completely legible on the Macpherson family obelisk in the Glasgow Necropolis, we know from estate documents that he died on 15 January 1843. His age at death on the gravestone (48) indicates a birth between 16 January 1794 and 15 January 1795. However, the 1841 Scottish Census, which rounded ages to the nearest five years, understated his age as ‘40’, so his reported age at death may not be reliable.
The Census confirmed that he was born in Lanarkshire. There were two James McPhersons born there in this period, one to Robert McPherson, weaver, and Janet McGoune (McGowan) in Glasgow on 8/3/1794 and the other to John McPherson and Janet Whitelaw at rural Razehill (i.e., Raziehill) in Shotts parish on 23/10/1794. Another possible birth, on 05/07/1795 to Agnes McDonald, wife of the labourer and ‘poor’ sometime soldier John McPherson, falls after the period mandated by James’ declared age at death.
There is some evidence that James and his wife later followed the traditional Scottish naming pattern when their own children were christened: the eldest daughter and second son were certainly named after the wife’s parents, and the third daughter named after the wife. If the pattern was pursued exactly, the names of James’ eldest son and second daughter would suggest that his own parents were called James and Agnes. However, there is no record of a James born anywhere in Scotland during this decade to a M(a)cPherson couple so named.
As James called his third son (traditionally named after himself) David, we should consider the possibility that he was born at Glasgow, on 03/01/1793, to David McPherson and Agnes Walker, even though this would have made him 50 (rather than the stated 48) at death. The names of James’ other children echo, more than for other possible McPherson families into which he may have been born, those of McPherson/Walker children, though not comprehensively or in precise order. That a James McPherson of Glasgow, father David, studied anatomy at the University of Glasgow in 1812-13 lends weight to this probability.
David McPherson was a textiles worker, a callenderman (who imparted a smooth finish by passing fabric through heavy rollers) and clothlapper (who folded the finished product). He and ‘Agnas’, both of Buchanan, ‘gave up their Names to be proclaimed in Order of marriage July 19th 1778’. Buchanan was the birthplace of ‘Rob Roy’ McGregor and perhaps the ‘only true Highland parish’ in Stirling: it had a high proportion of Gaelic speakers. It is interesting that James and his wife were later married by Glasgow’s Gaelic Minister.
James was clearly an exceptional dental surgeon. He was a pioneer of new, more scientific, oral surgery techniques and, in August 1840, when American dentists founded the first national dental society, the American Society of Dental Surgeons, they included him among the dozen outstanding foreign practitioners elected as honorary members.
More to add about James but this for the moment
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Good post JSO, Glasgow's MacPherson Street was apparently named after a Blantyre farmer who had his arms carved on the building.
Skoosh.
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Thank you so much for this, I really appreciate it. I’m very swayed by the info of a James MacPherson son of David studying anatomy. I’d been though various medical institutions in Glasgow and Edinburgh looking for a James Macpherson studying medicine, to no avail.
I’m most interested to know who your son in law is as I am also descended through Robert Nasmyth, would you be able to share his Macpherson line with me?
I know census returns to be unreliable for rounding to the nearest 5 years of age, but I’ve also had birth places assumed to be local when one parent was actually born in a different country! I’d started looking in Argyll as the Y-DNA matches put our ancestors on the west coast at Sunart and found a James Macpherson son of Duguld born 8 Mar 1795 in Southend, Argyll. But I think I’ll pursue the David option for now,
Any more you discover please do pass it on!
Thanks again for your help
Emma Pruen (née Macpherson)
Hi, Annie
James is a forbear of my son-in-law, through Robert Nasmyth Macpherson.
I can’t be sure as to James' parents - there are several James Macphersons recorded as born in Lanarkshire around 1793. However, there is evidence to suggest that he was the son of the textile worker David McPherson and Agnes Walker, both formerly of the parish of Buchanan, Stirling, on the east bank of Loch Lomond.
Although the year of James’ death is not completely legible on the Macpherson family obelisk in the Glasgow Necropolis, we know from estate documents that he died on 15 January 1843. His age at death on the gravestone (48) indicates a birth between 16 January 1794 and 15 January 1795. However, the 1841 Scottish Census, which rounded ages to the nearest five years, understated his age as ‘40’, so his reported age at death may not be reliable.
The Census confirmed that he was born in Lanarkshire. There were two James McPhersons born there in this period, one to Robert McPherson, weaver, and Janet McGoune (McGowan) in Glasgow on 8/3/1794 and the other to John McPherson and Janet Whitelaw at rural Razehill (i.e., Raziehill) in Shotts parish on 23/10/1794. Another possible birth, on 05/07/1795 to Agnes McDonald, wife of the labourer and ‘poor’ sometime soldier John McPherson, falls after the period mandated by James’ declared age at death.
There is some evidence that James and his wife later followed the traditional Scottish naming pattern when their own children were christened: the eldest daughter and second son were certainly named after the wife’s parents, and the third daughter named after the wife. If the pattern was pursued exactly, the names of James’ eldest son and second daughter would suggest that his own parents were called James and Agnes. However, there is no record of a James born anywhere in Scotland during this decade to a M(a)cPherson couple so named.
As James called his third son (traditionally named after himself) David, we should consider the possibility that he was born at Glasgow, on 03/01/1793, to David McPherson and Agnes Walker, even though this would have made him 50 (rather than the stated 48) at death. The names of James’ other children echo, more than for other possible McPherson families into which he may have been born, those of McPherson/Walker children, though not comprehensively or in precise order. That a James McPherson of Glasgow, father David, studied anatomy at the University of Glasgow in 1812-13 lends weight to this probability.
David McPherson was a textiles worker, a callenderman (who imparted a smooth finish by passing fabric through heavy rollers) and clothlapper (who folded the finished product). He and ‘Agnas’, both of Buchanan, ‘gave up their Names to be proclaimed in Order of marriage July 19th 1778’. Buchanan was the birthplace of ‘Rob Roy’ McGregor and perhaps the ‘only true Highland parish’ in Stirling: it had a high proportion of Gaelic speakers. It is interesting that James and his wife were later married by Glasgow’s Gaelic Minister.
James was clearly an exceptional dental surgeon. He was a pioneer of new, more scientific, oral surgery techniques and, in August 1840, when American dentists founded the first national dental society, the American Society of Dental Surgeons, they included him among the dozen outstanding foreign practitioners elected as honorary members.
More to add about James but this for the moment
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Interesting post, good research & analysis JSA...
"As James called his third son (traditionally named after himself) David, we should consider the possibility that he was born at Glasgow, on 03/01/1793, to David McPherson and Agnes Walker, even though this would have made him 50 (rather than the stated 48) at death. The names of James’ other children echo, more than for other possible McPherson families into which he may have been born, those of McPherson/Walker children, though not comprehensively or in precise order. That a James McPherson of Glasgow, father David, studied anatomy at the University of Glasgow in 1812-13 lends weight to this probability."
I would agree on the above being a very likely possibility!
Quite often with large families the naming pattern was swapped round or there could be 5 brothers with 1st son named after his g/father i.e. there's a good possibility James had 'a'/older sibling(s) who'd named their 1st son David?
Annie
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was looking to see if could find a death notice for james but no luck but found the following death notice from the Glasgow herald august 16th 1860 reads as follows at the clash callander on 14th inst. jamina Margaret anne macpherson youngest daughter of the late james macpherson esq. surgeon dentist glasgow
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the Y-DNA matches put our ancestors on the west coast at Sunart
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunart
"Sunart (/ˈsuːnɑːrt/ SOO-nart, Scottish Gaelic: Suaineart) is a rural district and community in the south west of Lochaber in Highland, Scotland"
Annie
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Hi, Emma
Sorry - newbie to Rootschat and I read your initial post as coming from Annie. I hope your Dad appreciates your efforts.
My son-in-law is via John Duncan Graham Macpherson, so a third cousin of yours. It's appropriate that I talk to him before I go further into his family line, etc., so please allow some time for that.
Here's a bit more research re James:
By mid-1819, he was practising in Glasgow as a ‘surgeon & dentist’ (later shortened to ‘surgeon-dentist’). He was initially at 57 Maxwell Street, sharing premises with grain merchants and bakers, but shortly moved to 54 Argyle Street and, later, to no. 599 further along the same street. By 1825, he was at 76 Buchanan Street, occupying rooms there until 1830 at least. For much of his career, though, and certainly from 1831, he both lived and worked at 69 St George Place, West George Street.
Certainly interested, too, in Forfarian's "newspaper clipping...which said James Macpherson was dentist to the great families of the west of Scotland".
Really, though, I have so much on James, and on Robert Nasmyth Macpherson, inc. copious endnotes, that I think it's better to share off-forum.
Rootschat rightly cautions us against publishing our emails on forum: so, if you post that you're willing, I'll send what I have to your Retreat e-ddress.
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Certainly interested, too, in Forfarian's "newspaper clipping...which said James Macpherson was dentist to the great families of the west of Scotland".
Not mine! Emma was the first to mention that. Credit to her, not me.
Rootschat rightly cautions us against publishing our emails on forum: so, if you post that you're willing, I'll send what I have to your Retreat e-ddress.
That's what the P(ersonal) M(essage) system on RootsChat is for. You can contact Emma direct by clicking on the wee symbol lke a sheet of paper under her name.
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Oh, dear - thanks, Forfarian.
As I said, new to Rootschat (and most ancestry sites!) and joined up to help Emma!
I'll do as you suggest.
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Oh, dear - thanks, Forfarian.
As I said, new to Rootschat (and most ancestry sites!) and joined up to help Emma!
I'll do as you suggest.
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His will showed him to be a very rich man, leaving in today's money over £900000, so I'm guessing the father would have been a professional of some kind,
This stands out for me. He may well have been a successful dentist surgeon....not sure it would pay so much to let him build up this amount of wealth and assets :-\ Could part of his wealth have been family money and assets that he inherited?
Did he leave a will & testament? Wonder whether this would provide further clues as to his assets at death.
Monica
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His will showed him to be a very rich man, leaving in today's money over £900000, so I'm guessing the father would have been a professional of some kind,
This stands out for me. He may well have been a successful dentist surgeon....not sure it would pay so much to let him build up this amount of wealth and assets :-\ Could part of his wealth have been family money and assets that he inherited?
Did he leave a will & testament? Wonder whether this would provide further clues as to his assets at death.
Monica
Can't define any sources of James money before he started practising.
When he died in January 1843, James left a substantial personal estate (including several hundred £ in what looks like unpaid dental bills!) of over £7300. As Emma says, a lot of money in today's terms.
His wife came to their marriage with, or soon after inherited, wealth in her own right. Her own estate ten years later was also substantial (just under £3400).
Think you need to post once more before we can correspond through Personal Messaging, Emma. Apparently, however, it won't permit attachments.
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Was James MacPherson also involved in the sugar trade, Glasgow's main source of wealth after the American Revolution, there was a James MacPherson listed with 10 slaves in Jamaica. No accident that Glasgow was first to erect a major monument to Lord Nelson as he chased the French from the Sugar Isles.
Skoosh.
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No knowledge of any slave or sugar connection for this James Macpherson.
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I wonder if dentists in the early 1800s knew about the effects of sugar on teeth?
Reminds me of a sketch by 'Scotland the What?' in which they were taking about a local village fête, to which the dentist's wife would be contributing her usual toffee.
Sorry, I'll get my coat ....
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;D If the "Last Trump" excludes those who made their fortunes from the proceeds of slavery there will be a poor torn-oot on the top of the Necropolis! ;D
Skoosh.
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I wonder if dentists in the early 1800s knew about the effects of sugar on teeth?
Reminds me of a sketch by 'Scotland the What?' in which they were taking about a local village fête, to which the dentist's wife would be contributing her usual toffee.
Sorry, I'll get my coat ....
One way of ensuring work ;D ???
Annie