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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: solidrock on Friday 02 November 18 01:19 GMT (UK)
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Joseph and Thomas Love were convicts sent to Tasmania in 1836 on the ship Henry Porcher. Joseph was convicted of stealing oranges at Essex Quarter Session and Thomas for stealing a watch at Essex Quarter Session they both got 7 years. On his release Thomas married Margaret Sinclair and they stayed in Tasmania. Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216. Pretty sure it's him on the 1871 census St Giles, Essex with a different wife Mary Ann, they married 1857, Halstead, Volume 4A Page 562.
It is thought that they were both born in Ireland but Joseph lived in Halstead and Thomas lived in Coggleshall when they were convicted, Joseph was a saddle maker and Thomas a silk weaver.
Looking for their births and if they were brothers also if Joseph married Elizabeth in Tasmania or England. Thank you.
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Where are they both recorded as being born on the census' you have?
What ages are given for both on those census'?
Annie
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Only have census's for Joseph. In 1851 age 36 born Liverpool and 1871 age 58 born Londonderry, Ireland.
Added, Thomas was 25 when he married in Tasmania the ages on their convict records are both 18.
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Born c1813 - 1818
Not much help but I would think the name Joseph would imply Catholic?
Annie
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Thanks Annie.
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"Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania, this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216. Pretty sure it's him on the 1871 census St Giles, Essex with a different wife Mary Ann, they married 1857, Halstead"
Have you looked for a possible death for Elizabeth between 1851 & 1871.
What occ. does Joseph have on both census'?
Annie
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"What occ. does Joseph have on both census'?"
1851 - Saddler
1871 - Saddle Maker
Convict record - Saddle Make
Joseph died 1883 Peterborough age 71.
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His convict records shows that he was in stife in 1846 and this may be the account on Trove:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65943624
Assuming he returned to England and was on the 1851 census as married, there are only two possible marriages showing on FreeBMD:
Dec 1849 Wolverhampton 17 488
Love Joseph
Sep 1851 Stepney 2 558
Love Joseph
Second marriage, maybe:
Dec 1857 Halstead 4a 562
Love Joseph
Norman Mary Ann
Jamjar
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Hi Jamjar, The 1857 is right for Mary Ann but not sure about her birth date or place. The wife in 1851 census is Elizabeth and I can't find an England or Tasmania marriage. Thanks for the Trove link, I'll follow that up.
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It is thought that they were both born in Ireland but Joseph lived in Halstead and Thomas lived in Coggleshall when they were convicted, Joseph was a saddle maker and Thomas a silk weaver.
Looking for their births and if they were brothers also if Joseph married Elizabeth in Tasmania or England. Thank you.
.....the ages on their convict records are both 18.
Their convict records do not show that information.
Joseph was aged 22, a blacksmith, native of Portsmouth. Thomas was aged 19, a garden labourer, native of 'Cogshill'. The native place is usually the birthplace.
Debra :)
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Here is a snip that gives their native place and other info, which if deciphered would likely support Dundee's post.
Tasmania Convict Records, free to search online :)
ADD
the image shows Joseph's sentence was for 14 years, Thomas' was for 7 years.
JM
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.....the ages on their convict records are both 18.
Their convict records do not show that information.
Joseph was aged 22, a blacksmith, native of Portsmouth. Thomas was aged 19, a garden labourer, native of 'Cogshill'. The native place is usually the birthplace.
That would definitely rule them out as being twins.
Annie
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Looks like ''Cogshill' should be Coggeshall, Essex (a long way from Portsmouth)?
Annie
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Name: Joseph Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Saddler
Date of Death: 1883
Age: 65 years
Crime: Steeling oranges
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 14 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Name: Thomas Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Silk weaver
Crime: Stealing a watch
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 12 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
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:) Agree, Annie,
JM
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Joseph had a record. 23 previous convictions
01 July 1836 - Chelmsford Chronicle
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01 July 1836 - Chelmsford Chronicle
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Name: Joseph Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Saddler
Date of Death: 1883
Age: 65 years
Crime: Steeling oranges
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 14 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Name: Thomas Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Silk weaver
Crime: Stealing a watch
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 12 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Is this from the official government website, as it is incorrect?
I was just looking at the had written image and Thomas was sentenced to 7 years which was extended due to offences during his time and he was a free man in 1844.
The last entry for Joseph was 12-9-1846 and given his 14 year sentence and his extra time given for further crimes committed, I can’t see him being in England in 1851, unless he absconded.
Jamjar
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19 June 1835 - Essex Standard
Connection with a William Love
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There’s a Job Love breaching the peace at Gt Coggleshall in 1838
In 1834, age 8. Job was whipped, for larceny
Several other appearances for Joseph, he was sentenced to 6 mths hard labour one time, and two months another.
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The 1857 is right for Mary Ann but not sure about her birth date or place.
What info. is given about her on the census, age/yob & where born?
Annie
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There’s a Job Love breaching the peace at Gt Coggleshall in 183
183...have we to guess which yr in the 1830s :D
Annie
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The 1857 is right for Mary Ann but not sure about her birth date or place.
What info. is given about her on the census, age/yob & where born?
Annie
Mary Ann Love Wife F 29 Halstead, Essex. Birth Year (Estimated): 1842.
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There’s a Job Love breaching the peace at Gt Coggleshall in 183
183...have we to guess which yr in the 1830s :D
Annie
Fixed it 😀
Job is in 1841 with likely mother Eliz. a washerwoman age 60. Born in county
R.t 20 blacksmith, Emma, Eliza, Job, blacksmith all recorded as 15 and patience 13
Girls all Tamborines (that’s what it looks like)
All born in county
Approx 40 years between Eliz and Rt (Robert?) which would allow for Joseph and Thomas to slot in above
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Name: Joseph Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Saddler
Date of Death: 1883
Age: 65 years
Crime: Steeling oranges
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 14 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Name: Thomas Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Silk weaver
Crime: Stealing a watch
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 12 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Is this from the official government website, as it is incorrect?
I was just looking at the had written image and Thomas was sentenced to 7 years which was extended due to offences during his time and he was a free man in 1844.
The last entry for Joseph was 12-9-1846 and given his 14 year sentence and his extra time given for further crimes committed, I can’t see him being in England in 1851, unless he absconded.
Jamjar
Has Joseph here with ticket of leave, half way down second column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66020605
Jamjar
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Jamjar, :) :) :) I think that's possibly a copy/paste of a transcription or two from a Queensland website, https://convictrecords.com.au/
JM
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Joseph Love gardener, second column:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article66270616
Jamjar
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Jamjar, :) :) :) I think that's possibly a copy/paste of a transcription or two from a Queensland website, https://convictrecords.com.au/
JM
Yes, I think you may be right, JM. 😉
Jamjar
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I think the transcription reading 1883 for death for Joseph may be referring to a death in England ... There's an online tree which has this chap, and there's a GRO certificate uploaded there.
GRO Vol 3b Page 161 for Jan-Mar Quarter of 1883, freebmd index has Peterboro' as district and 71 as his age, indexed as Joseph LOVE.
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
ADD Name: Joseph Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Saddler
Date of Death: 1883
.....
JM
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At the marriage of Nehemiah Love (son of Joseph the saddler and Mary Ann) in 1896 he says his father was Joseph William LOVE
Yorkshire marriage so image is online
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There’s a Job Love breaching the peace at Gt Coggleshall in 183
183...have we to guess which yr in the 1830s :D
Annie
Fixed it 😀
Job is in 1841 with likely mother Eliz. a washerwoman age 60. Born in county
R.t 20 blacksmith, Emma, Eliza, Job, blacksmith all recorded as 15 and patience 13
Girls all Tamborines (that’s what it looks like)
All born in county
Approx 40 years between Eliz and Rt (Robert?) which would allow for Joseph and Thomas to slot in above
This Job is not Joseph.
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I know he is not Joseph. I was trying to build up a potential rest of family to see if we could get to the relationship of Joseph and Thomas by lateral excursions
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https://libraries.tas.gov.au/family-history/Pages/Convict-life.aspx
scroll through and click on various links covering various indexes with live links to digitised images.
JM
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It would be interesting to know who the father of Joseph was & his occ. to bring Joseph & Thomas together as brothers with 'native' places given being so far apart?
Portsmouth...could be Naval?
Annie
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Solidrock, have you the marriage cert for the suspected Joseph and Mary Ann Norman?
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Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216.
What are the details for Elizabeth on the census, age/yob & where born?
Are they alone or in the household of someone else?
Annie
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I am wondering how Joseph funded his passage back to England... It would have been about a three or four month voyage, and for him to be back in time for the 1851 census, afterall he had a 14 year sentence imposed.
JM
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I am wondering how Joseph funded his passage back to England... It would have been about a three or four month voyage, and for him to be back in time for the 1851 census, afterall he had a 14 year sentence imposed.
JM, would a Saddle Maker not have earned a good living, may have had £ in the bank which would have earned a lot of interest over 14 yrs?
Annie
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But if he was a gardener in 1845, he wasn’t always working as a Sadler.
Did people ever work a passage back?
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Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216.
What are the details for Elizabeth on the census, age/yob & where born?
Are they alone or in the household of someone else?
Annie
In household on own.
1 Parsons Lane, Halstead
Joseph LOVE Mar, 36, Saddler b Liverpool
Elizabeth LOVE Wife, 28, b Norwich
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He was a convict, assigned to a settler, so he would not have had much opportunity to earn a private income.
JM
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Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216.
What are the details for Elizabeth on the census, age/yob & where born?
Are they alone or in the household of someone else?
Annie
On the 1851 census Parsons Lane, Halstead, Essex, there is just Joseph and Elizabeth alone. Elizabeth born Norwich c1823. Joseph born Liverpool c1815.
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Did people ever work a passage back?
Interesting question Mckha & something at the back of my mind tells me I've read about that somewhere at sometime although I can't recall where or how I came across it ::)
Annie
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Leaving the Colony
Convicts could leave the colonies after their sentences were completed or after being granted an Absolute Pardon. Departures were announced in the Sydney Gazette's 'Notice of Intent' column. Some went to work on trading, whaling and fishing vessels while others returned to England. Those released on Conditional Pardons were not allowed to return to England or Ireland.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/res-11.html
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The Sydney Gazette https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/title/3
Sydney Gazette ceased in 1842, but Tasmania (Van Diemen's Land) was administered separately from New South Wales from the mid 1820s...
ADD (from the perth dps site that solidrock has posted)
Certificate of Freedom
Certificates of Freedom (CF) were introduced in 1810 and issued to convicts at the completion of their sentence. Records usually note date, name, ship, year of arrival, when tried and sentence. Certificate of Freedom Butts from 1827 to 1867 also give native place, calling, year of birth, physical description and sometimes TOL information. Once again, the SAONSW holds copies and indexes of these records.
Tasmanian and Western Australian convicts also qualified for the various forms of pardons and records are available in Tasmania and Western Australia.
JM
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HO10/51
1841
Convict No. 1018, Joseph LOVE, Henry Porcher 1836, at Mr W Young, Lake River.
HO10/38
1846
Joseph LOVE, Essex (where tried), 14 (sentence) Do (Henry Porcher 1836) Tkt of Leave
HO10/40
1849
1018 Joseph LOVE, Henry Porcher 1836, Colchester 1836 (where tried) 14 (sentence) Ticket of Leave
ADD
I have been searching for a CF in the name of Joseph LOVE, alas I have NOT found it. As he was recorded in a Muster in VDL as holding TL in 1849, I would not expect he was able to leave VDL until he had obtained a CF. Not much of an opening in time for getting from VDL to England, via perhaps the gold rushes in California and then a journey across continental USA ... or to New Zealand or to China, South America, South Africa ... anywhere ...
JM
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JM et al,
There does seem a definite link with all Loves (mentioned in this thread) & the Essex area.
I had a wee scoot round 'google' & there seems to have been Army connections in Portsmouth & Essex which could be the link via parent(s) whether related in another capacity (e.g. cousins) or siblings?
Annie
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There is no Joseph Love abt 1811/12 in Portsmouth or Hampshire baptisms. (Both databases on FindMyPast)
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The image at reply #10 has Portsmouth, :D as native place :D (ADD, and aged 22 in 1836)
But I have not been seeking out the denomination of either Joseph or Thomas from any of the Tasmania records I have found... The denomination is likely noted on some of the images of the convict records ...
https://libraries.tas.gov.au/family-history/Pages/Convict-life.aspx
scroll through and click on various links covering various indexes with live links to digitised images.
JM
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JM.
My mention of Catholic early on was to do with the possible Irish connection simply for researching in Irish records which looks to be a red herring?
Solid Rock,
Can you please do a timeline of names/dates/events as things are a bit like a plate of spaghetti at the moment ;D with so much info. i.e. to make it easier to recall things it would be good to see all in one place?
Annie
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Name: Joseph Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Saddler
Date of Death: 1883
Age: 65 years
Crime: Steeling oranges
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 14 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Name: Thomas Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Silk weaver
Crime: Stealing a watch
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 12 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Unfortunately anyone can add information to that site and it appears that incorrect information has been added by contributors. The transportation registers in HO11/10 only state name, date and place of trial, and sentence.
Debra :)
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:)
Here is a link to a marriage for a Thomas LOVE, aged 25 and holding a TL. He made his X mark. Marriage 10 April 1843, Longford, (near Launceston, Tasmania) according to the rites of the United church of England and Ireland. The witnesses do NOT include anyone with surname LOVE. https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-3p149j2k The document does not include the name of the ship of arrival for either bride or groom, nor name their fathers, or give other family history clues.
There was not ever a formal 'Established Church' in the colonies.
JM
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I have found that there was some connection between Joseph and Thomas. In June 1844 Joseph was given a pass to go to
H. JENNINGS Thos LOVE at Reibey's Ford, to return on 7 Sep 1844.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadspen,_Tasmania
Henry JENNINGS
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138101962
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141767682
Thomas Love having on the 6th Nov.assaulted George Burgess was allowed 14 days to pay 20s. and 15s. costs. The plaintiff was at work in the paddock of Mr. Henry Jennings. Defendant came and asked who had taken away some boards he had left near the place; he was told they were at Mr. Jennings'; Love then committed the assault complained of......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66270965
Debra :)
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I have found that there was some connection between Joseph and Thomas. In June 1844 Joseph was given a pass to go to H. JENNINGS Thos LOVE at Reibey's Ford, to return on 7 Sep 1844.
Forgot the link:
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON82-1-1 (image 229)
Debra :)
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I have found that there was some connection between Joseph and Thomas. In June 1844 Joseph was given a pass to go to H. JENNINGS Thos LOVE at Reibey's Ford, to return on 7 Sep 1844.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadspen,_Tasmania
Henry JENNINGS
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/138101962
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/141767682
Thomas Love having on the 6th Nov.assaulted George Burgess was allowed 14 days to pay 20s. and 15s. costs. The plaintiff was at work in the paddock of Mr. Henry Jennings. Defendant came and asked who had taken away some boards he had left near the place; he was told they were at Mr. Jennings'; Love then committed the assault complained of......
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/66270965
Debra :)
That's a good find Dundee, Hadspen is not to far from where Thomas was married.
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This maybe Thomas's death in Victoria....
Event Death
Event registration number 9418
Registration year 1869
Personal information
Family name LOVE
Given names Thomas
Sex Unknown
Father's name UNKNOWN Unknown
Mother's name Unknown (Unknown)
Place of birth ESSE
Place of death DENSAN
Age 52
Spouse's family name SINCLAIR
Spouse's given names Margaret
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Solldrock, do you have any Victoria birth certs for children of your Thomas Love, if so what info is on the document re Thomas .... where /when born, married, usual residence etc
JM
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Solldrock, do you have any Victoria birth certs for children of your Thomas Love, if so what info is on the document re Thomas .... where /when born, married, usual residence etc
JM
As far as I'm aware they were childless.
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https://bdmabbreviations.steveparker.id.au/
This link may help with abbreviations on Vic BDMs :)
ESSE seems to indicate Essendon, but it doesn't seem to have a suggestion for DENSAN
https://www.bdm.vic.gov.au/research-and-family-history/search-your-family-history
RED POST,
Agh ... no children to Thomas, .... So you are descended from Joseph?
JM
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Or ESSE could be ESSEX 😀
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Or ESSE could be ESSEX 😀
;D ;D yes, but the actual document would likely need to be acquired to know what it actually says, rather than just the abbreviation used on the index.
JM
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A Thomas Love arriving from Hobart Town in 1847:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223151199
No marriage to a Sinclair on VICBDM.
Jamjar
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’Agh ... no children to Thomas, .... So you are descended from Joseph?’
JM, that would be difficult to prove, given that there is no evidence that Joseph the convict ever left Tasmania, or married. ;)
I don’t think that picking Thomas’ at random will prove he is the Tasmanian convict. Thomas Love was not an uncommon name.
Could even be this one, then, age 36:
1851 5017 LOVE Thomas Unknown Unknown (Unknown)
Jamjar
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Agh, following from JJs sighting :) :)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/POL459-1-2 Image 93
Notice the ship of arrival mentioned ;D
JM
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Job is in 1841 with likely mother Eliz. a washerwoman age 60. Born in county
R.t 20 blacksmith, Emma, Eliza, Job, blacksmith all recorded as 15 and patience 13
Girls all Tamborines (that’s what it looks like)
I think it it supposed to be 'tambourer'.
https://www.familyresearcher.co.uk/glossary/Dictionary-of-Old-Occupations-jobs-beginning-T.html
Debra :)
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Agh, following from JJs sighting :) :)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/POL459-1-2 Image 93
Notice the ship of arrival mentioned ;D
JM
I can’t view these links on the iPad, JM. Is it the correct man arriving in VIC?
Jamjar
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’Agh ... no children to Thomas, .... So you are descended from Joseph?’
JM, that would be difficult to prove, given that there is no evidence that Joseph the convict ever left Tasmania, or married. ;)
I don’t think that picking Thomas’ at random will prove he is the Tasmanian convict. Thomas Love was not an uncommon name.
Jamjar
Agree, but solidrock is researching Joseph and Thomas, to see if they are related, and if Thomas had no descendants, then it seems to me, that solidrock's ancestor would be Joseph ... so as we have Thomas' marriage and no family history info there, plus the index info for the likely death of Thomas and no family history info there, ... then errr ... and no children for Thomas ... then the searching needs to rely on finding Joseph LOVE's origins and if the images of his convict records note these, including any family etc... and his departure from VDL ... in time to be in England for the 1851 census...
Perhaps the date of the 1849 muster would be helpful :)
RED Post, yes, it is.
JM
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:)
Fingers crossed, I read Thos LOVE, F.S. Hry Porcher
It is the embarkation papers dated Feb 15, 1847 to Port Phillip :)
JM
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Thomas LOVE
Margaret SINCLAIR
10 Apr 1843
Registration Place Launceston, Tasmania
Year1843
Reg 594
Sue
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Agree, but solidrock is researching Joseph and Thomas, to see if they are related, and if Thomas had no descendants, then it seems to me, that solidrock's ancestor would be Joseph
Hey guys, these Love's are nothing to do with me I'm just trying to help someone else sort out tjeir family.
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:)
Fingers crossed, I read Thos LOVE, F.S. Hry Porcher
It is the embarkation papers dated Feb 15, 1847 to Port Phillip :)
JM
A Margaret wasn’t with him and I can’t see a death for her on Linc.
Jamjar
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Agree, but solidrock is researching Joseph and Thomas, to see if they are related, and if Thomas had no descendants, then it seems to me, that solidrock's ancestor would be Joseph
Hey guys, these Love's are nothing to do with me I'm just trying to help someone else sort out tjeir family.
So what info did they share with you ...
JM
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Agree, but solidrock is researching Joseph and Thomas, to see if they are related, and if Thomas had no descendants, then it seems to me, that solidrock's ancestor would be Joseph
Hey guys, these Love's are nothing to do with me I'm just trying to help someone else sort out tjeir family.
Ok, then let’s go back to the beginning. Why does the someone else think that the convict Joseph is an ancestor of theirs and the same person they must think is their ancestor in UK?
Jamjar
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Could it be that they could not find 'their' Joseph LOVE in the 1841 UK census, and found the conviction of a Joseph LOVE in 1836 with a sentence of transportation beyond the seas ...
JM
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At the marriage of Nehemiah Love (son of Joseph the saddler and Mary Ann) in 1896 he says his father was Joseph William LOVE
Yorkshire marriage so image is online
There's no mention of Joseph having any second given name on any of the Tasmania images I have looked at as part of this search. :)
JM
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:)
Here is a link to a marriage for a Thomas LOVE, aged 25 and holding a TL. He made his X mark. Marriage 10 April 1843, Longford, (near Launceston, Tasmania) according to the rites of the United church of England and Ireland. The witnesses do NOT include anyone with surname LOVE. https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-3p149j2k The document does not include the name of the ship of arrival for either bride or groom, nor name their fathers, or give other family history clues.
There was not ever a formal 'Established Church' in the colonies.
JM
that would support Sue's post :)
Thomas LOVE
Margaret SINCLAIR
10 Apr 1843
Registration Place Launceston, Tasmania
Year1843
Reg 594
Sue
JM
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You have to admit it’s very tempting as the one in the 1851/61/71 censuses gives a completely different place of birth each time. Which sort of fits with someone who had 23 convictions before being deported BUT you would expect that pattern to continue surely, and he was in trouble in Australia, but I don’t see any sign of misbehaviour post 1851.
Incidentally no sign of 1851 Elizabeth’s death.
We need that marriage cert of Joseph and Mary Ann Norman,
Is there a convict story in the family I wonder?
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I avoid looking at submitted trees, but I have just taken a peek, and found one that has Joseph LOVE and Mary Ann NORMAN and he born Ireland, convicted for 14 years, then marrying in 1857, Joseph died in 1883, Peterborough etc ... and the following :-X :-X
When Thos. Augustus Love was born in 1895 in Peterborough, Northamptonshire, his father, Joseph, was 82 and his mother, Mary, was 55. He had seven brothers and five sisters. He died in 1978 in Bradford, Yorkshire, at the age of 83.
JM ::) ::) ::) no wonder I usually avoid those online trees....
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You have to admit it’s very tempting as the one in the 1851/61/71 censuses gives a completely different place of birth each time. Which sort of fits with someone who had 23 convictions before being deported BUT you would expect that pattern to continue surely, and he was in trouble in Australia, but I don’t see any sign of misbehaviour post 1851.
Incidentally no sign of 1851 Elizabeth’s death.
We need that marriage cert of Joseph and Mary Ann Norman,
Is there a convict story in the family I wonder?
Where did you find the 1861 census for Joseph?
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I avoid looking at submitted trees, but I have just taken a peek, and found one that has Joseph LOVE and Mary Ann NORMAN and he born Ireland, convicted for 14 years, then marrying in 1857, Joseph died in 1883, Peterborough etc ... and the following :-X :-X
When Thos. Augustus Love was born in 1895 in Peterborough, Northamptonshire, his father, Joseph, was 82 and his mother, Mary, was 55. He had seven brothers and five sisters. He died in 1978 in Bradford, Yorkshire, at the age of 83.
JM ::) ::) ::) no wonder I usually avoid those online trees....
Never look at them either, mostly copied from others without sources.
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And this
When Joseph Love was born in 1813 in Londonderry, Londonderry, his father, John, was 1. He married Mary Ann Norman in Halstead, Essex. They had 13 children in 36 years. He died in 1883 at the age of 70.
:-[ :-[ :-[ John was aged 1 when his son Joseph was born ... err, babies take 9 months ...
I say no more, the tree owner has a Bachelor Degree ... errr ... in what ... I definitely say no more.
JM
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Never look at them either, mostly copied from others without sources.
So Solidrock, from your opening post where did you source the following ...
Joseph and Thomas Love were convicts sent to Tasmania in 1836 on the ship Henry Porcher. Joseph was convicted of stealing oranges at Essex Quarter Session and Thomas for stealing a watch at Essex Quarter Session they both got 7 years. On his release Thomas married Margaret Sinclair and they stayed in Tasmania . Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216. Pretty sure it's him on the 1871 census St Giles, Essex with a different wife Mary Ann, they married 1857, Halstead, Volume 4A Page 562.
It is thought that they were both born in Ireland but Joseph lived in Halstead and Thomas lived in Coggleshall when they were convicted, Joseph was a saddle maker and Thomas a silk weaver.
Looking for their births and if they were brothers also if Joseph married Elizabeth in Tasmania or England. Thank you.
JM
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Never look at them either, mostly copied from others without sources.
So Solidrock, from your opening post where did you source the following ...
Joseph and Thomas Love were convicts sent to Tasmania in 1836 on the ship Henry Porcher. Joseph was convicted of stealing oranges at Essex Quarter Session and Thomas for stealing a watch at Essex Quarter Session they both got 7 years. On his release Thomas married Margaret Sinclair and they stayed in Tasmania . Not sure if Joseph married in Tasmania or not but he did go back to England and this maybe him on the 1851 census in Halstead, Essex with wife Elizabeth, Page Number 1
Registration Number HO107 Piece/Folio 1784 / 216. Pretty sure it's him on the 1871 census St Giles, Essex with a different wife Mary Ann, they married 1857, Halstead, Volume 4A Page 562.
It is thought that they were both born in Ireland but Joseph lived in Halstead and Thomas lived in Coggleshall when they were convicted, Joseph was a saddle maker and Thomas a silk weaver.
Looking for their births and if they were brothers also if Joseph married Elizabeth in Tasmania or England. Thank you.
JM
The info I originally got was from the person that I am trying to help, I don't know her personally but her family name is Love. She know all about Joseph's life of crime in England and all the facts about Thomas in Tas. check out. I'm not sure if the Joseph in 1851 is the same as the 1871 the only common factor is that he is a saddle maker. She says Joseph moved to Colchester long after he married so I read that as he married in Tas. There seems to be no record for that on Linc. or in England and no obvious birth or death for Elizabeth, perhaps they were not married.
I'm waiting for the person to get back to me hopefully with more info.
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You have to admit it’s very tempting as the one in the 1851/61/71 censuses gives a completely different place of birth each time. Which sort of fits with someone who had 23 convictions before being deported BUT you would expect that pattern to continue surely, and he was in trouble in Australia, but I don’t see any sign of misbehaviour post 1851.
Incidentally no sign of 1851 Elizabeth’s death.
We need that marriage cert of Joseph and Mary Ann Norman,
Is there a convict story in the family I wonder?
Where did you find the 1861 census for Joseph?
Sorry, I realise I hadn't. But found his wife and 2 children Household schedule number: 86
Piece: 1110
Folio: 150
Page Number: 16
Mary age 21, Emily age 2 and Nehemia age 2/12 in Halstead all 3 born Halstead.
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1861 ... perhaps Joseph would be a boarder, aged 38, :) a saddler, at Bury St Edmunds :)
add https://ukcensusonline.com/census/1861/
JM
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1861 ... perhaps Joseph would be a boarder, aged 38, :) a saddler, at Bury St Edmunds :)
add https://ukcensusonline.com/census/1861/
JM
That looks good.
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1861 ... perhaps Joseph would be a boarder, aged 38, :) a saddler, at Bury St Edmunds :)
add https://ukcensusonline.com/census/1861/
JM
but age is 10 yrs + out
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.....
The info I originally got was from the person that I am trying to help, I don't know her personally but her family name is Love. She know all about Joseph's life of crime in England and all the facts about Thomas in Tas. check out. I'm not sure if the Joseph in 1851 is the same as the 1871 the only common factor is that he is a saddle maker. She says Joseph moved to Colchester long after he married so I read that as he married in Tas. There seems to be no record for that on Linc. or in England and no obvious birth or death for Elizabeth, perhaps they were not married.
I'm waiting for the person to get back to me hopefully with more info.
Well the sourced info we have collected and posted on the thread re the two lads transported to VDL in 1836 - found in a matter of hours - is likely to have very little to do with the chap who died in 1883, in England.
There's every chance that Joseph simply changed his name after 1849 and became one of those who rushed to the nearby colony of Victoria suffering gold fever ... far ...far more people came after convictism ceased ...
JM
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"When Joseph Love was born in 1813 in Londonderry, Londonderry, his father, John, was 1. He married Mary Ann Norman in Halstead, Essex. They had 13 children in 36 years. He died in 1883 at the age of 70."
"I say no more, the tree owner has a Bachelor Degree ... errr ... in what ... I definitely say no more."
JM
A 'Bachelor'...On his own...in thinking that's logical ::)...You get them sadly :D
Annie
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:D :D :D ohhhhhhhhhh Annie ;D ;D
Convicts continued to be sent to Tasmania until 1853, and thus captains/masters of ships departing from Tasmanian ports needed to ensure their passengers were not still under a sentence, and the penal administration’s regulations were in place to check this.
Joseph LOVE, per the Henry Porcher of 1836 was recorded in the December 1849 Muster as still holding his Ticket of Leave, so he had not yet been issued with a Certificate of Freedom, nor was he recorded there as Free by Servitude.
Thomas LOVE’s departure to Port Phillip (that's a sea voyage across Bass Strait from one colony to another, ie from VDL to what became the colony of Victoria in 1851) is recorded and that list has F.S. and his ship of arrival as Henry Porcher.
Earlier on this thread I noted that I had been searching for Joseph’s CF but had not found it. I now add to that note:
I have not found any sighting to suggest that Joseph LOVE, per the Henry Porcher of 1836, noted on convict arrival papers as a Black and Shoeing Smith (not as a saddler, not as a farrier) ever departed Tasmania (Van Diemens Land) during the times that the ships captains/masters were reporting to the VDL authorities on the passengers seeking to depart VDL…
I did not look at variations in indexes for alternatives to LOVE due perhaps to long-hand scribble … eg LORE, SORE, SORT FORE, FORT, TORE, TARE, FARE, …
JM
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:D :D :D ohhhhhhhhhh Annie ;D ;D
Earlier on this thread I noted that I had been searching for Joseph’s CF but had not found it. I now add to that note:
I have not found any sighting to suggest that Joseph LOVE, per the Henry Porcher of 1836, noted on convict arrival papers as a Black and Shoeing Smith (not as a saddler, not as a farrier) ever departed Tasmania (Van Diemens Land) during the times that the ships captains/masters were reporting to the VDL authorities on the passengers seeking to depart VDL…
JM
Well JM...what more could you say, glad it made you smile as some things we encounter are enough to make one give up our addiction with such ludicrous suggestions (put across as 'fact') ;D
Annie
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Update, just herd from the person I am trying to help, she says....
"Joseph did straighten himself out when he returned to England and became a saddle maker. On Joseph marr.cert. his father was still alive at the time JOHN LOVE. Joseph received 12 yrs in the colony as he had already been in prison in England."
Looks like he may have not been a saddle maker when he was transported.
I have found 11 children for Joseph and Mary Ann being born in various places, Halstead, Bury St. Edmunds, Colchester and Peterborough. There is also a mystery Lolah Love born 1850, Halstead Union, mmn Newton. No trace of the said Elizabeth in the 1851
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Joseph was clearly still in Van Diemens Land in December 1849, and clearly not yet emancipated - He only had a Ticket of Leave noted on that Muster. He had some colonial sentences recorded on his sheet, which would extend his sentence. He needed a Certificate of Freedom before he could leave VDL. Simply put, the dots are not joining up between Joseph the 22 year old Blacksmith from Portsmouth on the Henry Porcher in 1836, and the Joseph William LOVE mentioned by Mckha489 here:
At the marriage of Nehemiah Love (son of Joseph the saddler and Mary Ann) in 1896 he says his father was Joseph William LOVE
Yorkshire marriage so image is online
Does your contact have any of the UK marriage certs that JJ noted, if so, what info is there about Joseph and his father:
His convict records shows that he was in stife in 1846 and this may be the account on Trove:
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article65943624
Assuming he returned to England and was on the 1851 census as married, there are only two possible marriages showing on FreeBMD:
Dec 1849 Wolverhampton 17 488
Love Joseph
Sep 1851 Stepney 2 558
Love Joseph
Second marriage, maybe:
Dec 1857 Halstead 4a 562
Love Joseph
Norman Mary Ann
Jamjar
JM
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There's quite a number of chaps named as Joseph LOVE in the mid 1800s in New South Wales, which of course included all of Victoria and all of Queensland until they were hived off (Victoria in 1851 and Queensland in 1859).
Here's one I have spotted on the NSW Archives index for Deposition Registers ...
Joseph LOVE, alleged offence HORSE STEALING, committed for trial Wagga 14 December 1865...
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/criminal-depositions-deposition-books-index
JM
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1851 Stepney
JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Margaret Hollis, Frances Flagg, Maria Griffiths, Caroline Newman
1849 Wolverhampton
JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Sarah Stimpson, Mary Kirkham, Ann Lucas
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“Joseph did straighten himself out when he returned to England and became a saddle maker. On Joseph marr.cert. his father was still alive at the time JOHN LOVE. Joseph received 12 yrs in the colony as he had already been in prison in England."
How do folk come up with this sort of thing?
Where is the documented evidence that he received 12 years, and returned to UK, please?
Jamjar
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Forgetting all about the convict for a moment...what is ALL the information on the known (well I’m assuming that part at least is proven) ancestor Joseph LOVE who married Mary Ann NORMAN’s marriage certificate? Including witnesses
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Forgetting all about the convict for a moment...what is ALL the information on the known (well I’m assuming that part at least is proven) ancestor Joseph LOVE who married Mary Ann NORMAN’s marriage certificate? Including witnesses
Excellent Question.
JM
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And some other questions, not nearly as important as the one re the 1857 marriage cert ... but
And … who were these two … Joseph LOVE and William LOVE …
The Essex Stand and Colchester, Chelmsford, Maldon, Harwich and General county Advertiser … Friday 19 June 1835; Issue 233.
COMMITMENTS …. 10th instant
Joseph LOVE (by W W Luard Esq) in default of sureties for an assault upon William LOVE of Great Goggeshall.
.................................................
And this Joseph LOVE - who was he :)
The Chelmsford Chronicle, Friday July 10 1835 page 4.
Essex Quarter Session
…..
Discharged by Proclamation …. Joseph LOVE, ….
.........................................................
page 2 of The Chelmsford Chronicle of 1 July 1836
And this Joseph LOVE - who was he - likely #1018 in VDL :)
Joseph LOVE was sentenced to fourteen years for the conviction noted on his transportation papers (stealing from Edward WISEMAN at Great Tey). There is no mention of 12 years, the word in the newspaper cutting is written in full. So just on that conviction, July 1836 plus 14 years is July 1850.
........................................
Same chap, off to VDL to arrive on the Henry Porcher :) :)
The Essex Standard (etc) Friday 22 July 1836 (no page number, sorry).
Removal of transports – The following transports ere on Thursday the 14th instant, removed from the Convict Gaol, Springfield to the Leviathan hulk, …. Joseph LOVE, 24, labourer, stealing oranges &c., from Edward Wiseman at Great Tey …
.............................
And AFTER the transport, Henry Porcher, had arrived in VDL …
And ... Who were these two: Joseph LOVE and Benjamin LOVE .. Leamington Spa seems to be around 120 - 140 miles from Essex…
Leamington Spa Courier, January 7, 1837, page 4,
Wednesday, Mr Dickins resumed his seat this morning at ten.
Joseph LOVE was indicted for stealing at Rugby, on the 12th December last, 18 inches of shear steel, the property of John DEAN; and Benjamin LOVE, for receiving the same, knowing it to have been stolen…
JM edit for grammar and sorting out the various cuttings.
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There is also a mystery Lolah Love born 1850, Halstead Union, mmn Newton.
Just noticing, could this possibly be a transcription error on either...
1851 Stepney
JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Margaret Hollis, Frances Flagg, Maria Griffiths, Caroline Newman
Annie
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Sadly, Caroline Newman married William Garrett
And Joseph married Margaret Holos. (Hollis)
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Mckha...that's a help even though it doesn't help :D
Too many obstacles & discrepancies in this query but certainly intriguing!
Annie
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Deleted what I wrote. No, not that!
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Yes, Intriguing :) Joseph LOVE needed to get to June 1850 for his 14 year sentence to be expired by servitude .... very little time for him to leave VDL and be back in Essex and retrained as a saddler, and with a wife too ...
So, re the 1851 Census HO107/1784/216 mentioned earlier on this thread ...
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVX-GKM
Halstead, Parson’s Lane…
Joseph LOVE, married, 36, Saddler, Liverpool
Elizabeth LOVE, wife, 28, Norwich
SAME PAGE
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVX-GKQ
Halstead, Parson’s Lane,
Edward WISEMAN, married, 60, Baker, Suffolk Burgate
Various family members…
What is the connection between that Edward Wiseman, that Joseph Love, and the two people by those same names in the newspaper cutting here:
.....
page 2 of The Chelmsford Chronicle of 1 July 1836
And this Joseph LOVE - who was he - likely #1018 in VDL :)
Joseph LOVE was sentenced to fourteen years for the conviction noted on his transportation papers (stealing from Edward WISEMAN at Great Tey). There is no mention of 12 years, the word in the newspaper cutting is written in full. So just on that conviction, July 1836 plus 14 years is July 1850.
........................................
Same chap, off to VDL to arrive on the Henry Porcher :) :)
The Essex Standard (etc) Friday 22 July 1836 (no page number, sorry).
Removal of transports – The following transports ere on Thursday the 14th instant, removed from the Convict Gaol, Springfield to the Leviathan hulk, …. Joseph LOVE, 24, labourer, stealing oranges &c., from Edward Wiseman at Great Tey …
JM
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On a lighter note and getting away from these Loves for a moment.
Edward Wiseman, Occupation Baker, Parsons Lane, Halstead.
My 3x great grandfather, (William Beckwith), was a baker in Parsons Lane in 1848.
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It is a very small world
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It is a very small world
Yes, indeed. Most of my migrant ancestors had arrived in NSW long before then, but when searching through census for RChat queries, I always have an eye out 'just in case' there's co-incidences like that :D
I have NOT YET found Joseph leaving VDL for anywhere ... not even for the gold fields...
JM
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Found THOMAS LOVE and Margaret SINCLAIR info confirming he was the lad on the Henry Porcher :)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON52-1-2p056
JM
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There is also a mystery Lolah Love born 1850, Halstead Union, mmn Newton.
Just noticing, could this possibly be a transcription error on either...
1851 Stepney
JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Margaret Hollis, Frances Flagg, Maria Griffiths, Caroline Newman
Annie
Lolah was daughter of Robert Love, the blacksmith in Gt Coggelshall in 1841 with poss mother Eliz. and siblings including Job.
I’ve been looking at them again for clues. Just incase, and anyway are interesting.
Robert LOVE married Mary Ann NEWTON in 1844
Job LOVE married Mary Ann HARRINGTON and children including a son Thomas who was charged with attempted murder of his father in 1865 but father withdrew charges, then Thomas went back home hungry, mother Mary Ann had been forbidden to feed him so she gave him Some pieces of iron (they were all blacksmiths) to sell which Job then charged him with stealing. Judges persuaded Job to give him another chance. THEN Job was up for assaulting Mary Ann, he got three weeks hard labour for that!
Robert and Mary Ann were involved in fencing a stolen watch
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Found THOMAS LOVE and Margaret SINCLAIR info confirming he was the lad on the Henry Porcher :)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON52-1-2p056
JM
Maybe hearsay I have'nt checked it yet but Margaret could also be a convict, she was convicted in London for stealing money from another man.Where and when unknown yet.
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There is also a mystery Lolah Love born 1850, Halstead Union, mmn Newton.
Just noticing, could this possibly be a transcription error on either...
1851 Stepney
JOSEPH LOVE married one of these people
Margaret Hollis, Frances Flagg, Maria Griffiths, Caroline Newman
Annie
Lolah was daughter of Robert Love, the blacksmith in Gt Coggelshall in 1841 with poss mother Eliz. and siblings including Job.
I’ve been looking at them again for clues. Just incase, and anyway are interesting.
Robert LOVE married Mary Ann NEWTON in 1844
Job LOVE married Mary Ann HARRINGTON and children including a son Thomas who was charged with attempted murder of his father in 1865 but father withdrew charges, then Thomas went back home hungry, mother Mary Ann had been forbidden to feed him so she gave him Some pieces of iron (they were all blacksmiths) to sell which Job then charged him with stealing. Judges persuaded Job to give him another chance. THEN Job was up for assaulting Mary Ann, he got three weeks hard labour for that!
Robert and Mary Ann were involved in fencing a stolen watch
Thank you for that, rules out her being Joseph's daughter but it takes us back to Coggelshall where Thomas may have come from.
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Found THOMAS LOVE and Margaret SINCLAIR info confirming he was the lad on the Henry Porcher :)
https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON52-1-2p056
JM
Maybe hearsay I have'nt checked it yet but Margaret could also be a convict, she was convicted in London for stealing money from another man.Where and when unknown yet.
On the attachment you will notice 394 against her name, and the name of her ship of arrival. 394 is her convict number :) you will find her at the lincs website I gave earlier. :)
JM
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https://libraries.tas.gov.au/family-history/Pages/Convict-life.aspx
scroll through and click on various links covering various indexes with live links to digitised images.
JM
:) :) lincs :)
https://www.booksandpublishing.com.au/articles/2018/07/25/112013/tasmanias-lincs-to-be-called-libraries-again/
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At the marriage of Nehemiah Love (son of Joseph the saddler and Mary Ann) in 1896 he says his father was Joseph William LOVE
Yorkshire marriage so image is online
Forgetting all about the convict for a moment...what is ALL the information on the known (well I’m assuming that part at least is proven) ancestor Joseph LOVE who married Mary Ann NORMAN’s marriage certificate? Including witnesses
At an online tree, an image of a GRO cert, issued 22 Jan 2010. (Handwritten all in the one hand)
Registration District HALSTEAD
1857 Marriage solemnized at Ebenezer Chapel, Little Maplestead, District of Halstead, in the County of Essex.
No. 170
Ninth November 1857
Joseph LOVE, 40 years, Bachelor, Saddler, Halstead, John LOVE
Mary Ann NORMAN, 19 years, Spinster, -----, Halstead, John NORMAN
Married in the independent Chapel according to the Rites and Ceremonies of the Independent denomination
Signed Joseph LOVE
The Mark of Mary Ann NORMAN
Witnesses
Signed Frederic NORMAN
The Mark of Hannah NORMAN
I note the image I have found online has missed scanning the full details of the Reverend and also ANY column on the right of Column no. 7 May I note that I have deduced, from the handwriting on the document that The Reverend’ given names most likely would be Joseph and Reginald. I also presume that the reason the GRO ref is missing is that it would appear on the original in the section that seems to be missing.
JM
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Well! the least he could have done was have a LOVE as a witness :-)
He admits to being 40 which is a birth of c 1817 so somewhat younger than other dates we have had. Although within the usual margins of error (we have 1812 - 1817 am I right?)
So. the Joseph on his own in 1861 age 38 seems to be rather an outlier despite the occupation being correct (for the husband of Mary Ann Norman anyway).
Bachelor, so if that is the same man in 1851 Elizabeth is not his wife.
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Convict papers on landing have him as aged 22 (1836 - 22 = 1814) but Solidrock's OP may have different info.
JM
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Name: Joseph Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Saddler
Date of Death: 1883
Age: 65 years
Crime: Steeling oranges
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 14 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
Name: Thomas Love
Aliases: none
Gender: m
Date of Birth: 1818
Occupation: Silk weaver
Crime: Stealing a watch
Convicted at: Essex Quarter Session
Sentence term: 12 years
Ship: Henry Porcher
Departure date: 1st August, 1836
Arrival date: 15th November, 1836
Place of arrival Van Diemen's Land
Passenger manifest Travelled with 261 other convicts
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Newspaper cuttings have Joseph as aged 24 in 1836... ;D
(ADD from the UK papers of the trial with the victim as Edward Wiseman)
JM
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I suspect the newspaper and the convict papers are the most reliable don't you?
However - am no further ahead in trying to work out who Joseph son of John could be.
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I am still striving to figure out if Joseph, the convict in VDL was noted as R&W (Read and Write)... afterall the 1857 Joseph signed his name...
JM
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lincs clues ;D
Appropriation List CON27/1/2; Appropriation List MM33/6; Conduct Record CON31/1/28; Description List CON23/1/2; Muster Roll CON13/1/8; Muster Roll MM33/3; Muster Roll MM33/8
Remember he was number 1018 :) and arrived per the Henry Porcher Dec 1836.
JM
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https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON31-1-28$init=CON31-1-28p196
:) :) :)
JM
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https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON31-1-28$init=CON31-1-28p196
:) :) :)
JM
So - I hope I am reading this correctly. Thomas got his cert of freedom in 1844 but there is no indication that Joseph did. Joseph did all sorts of things and got extra sentences of hard labour and working on a road gang in chains. Would these have been ADDED to the 14 years?
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Yes, I cannot find where Joseph got his CF... 28 June 1836 conviction date, 14 years... then thre's his crime sheet for colonial offences .... I am not sure if these were concurrent or added to those 14 years, I am NSW Centric. ::)
JM
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:) Thomas LOVE was #1019, and sentenced to 7 years in 1836, but due to colonial convictions did not get his CF until 1844.
:) Joseph LOVE was #1018 and fourteen years in 1836, so not due for his CF until mid 1850, even without any colonial convictions.
I still have not found Joseph LOVE receiving his CF and it will be several days before I can get back onto searching for this. But I am concerned that solidrock's contact may have formed the view that
a) Joseph and Thomas LOVE could be brothers perhaps due to their running numbers for convicts ... so I note, these are numbers within the alphabetical list for those males with surname L ... Joseph falls alphabetically before Thomas ... and it does not prove they are relatives. They may well be, but there's no proof just because of running numbers.
b) Joseph and Thomas LOVE could be brothers perhaps because both were transported on same ship ... so I note, NO, and often if relatives were transported on same ship it would be noted on the record ... but conversely, just because there's no such note, does not mean they were NOT related either.
c) One set of convict records has them both as tried at the Quarter Sessions Essex/Colchester on 28 June 1836 ... So Joseph's record has the date, and Thomas' record, (immediately under) has the usual abbreviation 'Do' (ditto !) ... So it may well be sensible for someone to check the accuracy of the 'Do' ... was the clerk mis-reading, when transposing from one set of records to the list setting out the allocation of the convict numbers ...
Sorry, I cannot help further. but I am sure all the regular RChatters will agree that it is sensible to seek out the original records, particularly when so many of the VDL records are digitised and freely available on line, at lincs and of course the historic newspapers at trove.
ADD, but my main concern is, of course, that there's really nothing in the VDL records to suggest that Joseph LOVE returned to Essex ... it was actually quite unusual for convicts to return to Britain, costs of fares, conditions of their emancipation etc... and to return to the general locality of their conviction ... well, almost unheard of.
JM
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:) Thomas LOVE was #1019, and sentenced to 7 years in 1836, but due to colonial convictions did not get his CF until 1844.
.
And his colonial convictions were minor compared to Joseph’s
c) One set of convict records has them both as tried at the Quarter Sessions Essex/Colchester on 28 June 1836 ... So Joseph's record has the date, and Thomas' record, (immediately under) has the usual abbreviation 'Do' (ditto !) ... So it may well be sensible for someone to check the accuracy of the 'Do' ... was the clerk mis-reading, when transposing from one set of records to the list setting out the allocation of the convict numbers ...
Yes, they were tried at the same quarter session. See newspaper report earlier
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It may be worthwhile for someone in the UK to seek out the original of that 1857 marriage, for a signature for Joseph LOVE and also for an occupation for his father, John. So, not the GRO version, but the actual church register. It may come in handy if there's any signature found for the convict Joseph.
I also should note that Blacksmith and Shoesmith very different trades from Saddler. Shoesmith doesn't have to go near a horse, the farrier does that. :)
JM
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It may be worthwhile for someone in the UK to seek out the original of that 1857 marriage, for a signature for Joseph LOVE and also for an occupation for his father, John. So, not the GRO version, but the actual church register. It may come in handy if there's any signature found for the convict Joseph.
I also should note that Blacksmith and Shoesmith very different trades from Saddler. Shoesmith doesn't have to go near a horse, the farrier does that. :)
JM
I will ask the person if she's got the marriage cert. or if she can get it. I am convinced that the Joseph in all the census's from 51-81 is the same person, his place and dob changes from one to another which is understandable if you were a convict in your past, whether or not he is the same Joseph transported in 1836 is questionable but not impossible.
1851 born 1815, Liverpool.
1861 born 1823, Halstead.
1871 born 1813, Londonderry.
1881 born 1804, Ireland.
Death 1883 age 71,(birth 1812).
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"Joseph LOVE was #1018 and fourteen years in 1836, so not due for his CF until mid 1850, even without any colonial convictions."
If he did his full sentence, I doubt he would be back in England for the 1851 census?
"The United Kingdom Census of 1851 recorded the people residing in every household on the night of Sunday 30 March 1851"
Annie
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:) :)
Just a quick note, sorry but I have no spare moments to continue to inspect those freely available digitised VDL records at lincs.
Speculative but ...
A Joseph GLOVER, noted as arrived per the Mandarin originally, and noted on the departures from VDL's digitised passenger list as FS (Free by Servitude) departed VDL from the port of Launceston on 22 June 1851 per the Shamrock which steamed to Melbourne (*so quit the colony of VDL, went to the colony of Victoria,).
The newspaper cuttings include:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8769466 Colonial Times 24 June 1851, .... and sixty-six in the steerage.
I note:
• I have NOT yet found Joseph GLOVER as a convict arriving per the Mandarin,
• The passenger list has Jos GLOVER, and Jos is frequently the abbreviation for Joseph, the index at Lincs has Joseph.
• Here’s the link to the lincs image for the departure June 1851 (click on pages 385-386) https://stors.tas.gov.au/POL220-1-1
• GLOVER may of course be a mis-read for CLOVER and Jos may be a mis-read for James. If so, then there’s a James CLOVER arriving on the Mandarin in 1840, convicted in ESSEX in 1838, ten years ... so due for his freedom in 1848, but due to some colonial convictions he gained his freedom 6 March 1849 as per his Crim Sheet (image 48 https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON33-1-1$init=CON33-1-1p48 watch out for some typos on the index it is image 48, not 46).
BUT in considering GLOVER as a possible ‘new’ alias for Joseph LOVE, the quick investigation I have just explained, all from my armchair of course, shows that even in 1851 the ships captains were checking on the status of their passengers. So, please do be careful in assuming Joseph LOVE returned to Essex, England. While it is not impossible, simply put, it is not usual, it is not likely, it is not even probable, that he was there in time for the 1851 census. There is nothing to show he had quit VDL, and of course there’s plenty to show that the penal system was actively checking on the status of people quitting VDL. VDL continued to receive convicts from Britain until 1853. See a list here:
http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/shipsTAS.html
JM
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Apologies if I've missed something but...
Has anyone found any LOVE family(s) in Essex or other areas mentioned for Joseph & Thomas in 1841 ?
"1851 born 1815, Liverpool.
1861 born 1823, Halstead.
1871 born 1813, Londonderry.
1881 born 1804, Ireland.
Death 1883 age 71,(birth 1812)."
Solidrock, I did request a 'Timeline' earlier basically to show all the discrepancies with age, dates, occ. etc.
I've seen often, differences in ages/birth yrs on census' etc. but there does seem to be a lot of discrepancies in the list above alone.
YoB c1804 - 1823 is a worry for someone who 'signed' on his marriage but reading & counting are 2 different things
the least he could have done was have a LOVE as a witness :-)
Trying not to seem too cynical with my previous thoughts, maybe the lack of 'a LOVE as a witness' was the fact his brother was still abroad :-\
Annie
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I ought to have checked the search engine at RChat earlier .... excellent question Annie, it prompted me to go to the search engine...
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683409.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683413.0
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=683404.0
I notice the OP has not been online since 2014. :(
ADD, today is Melbourne Cup Day ... the horse race that 'stops the nation' ... my turn this year for the locals to come to our back yard ... in around two hours the race will be live on TV ... we have backyard table set with lunch, nibbles etc, and people everywhere ... several are family history buffs and have had a sneek peek at this thread ....
JM
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Enjoy your day JM! ;)
I'm choosing...
1 - 'A Prince of Arran'...being a Scot & Arran being a Scottish Island.
2 - 'Ventura Storm' as I quite like Jesse Ventura of 'Conspiracy Theory'
£1.00 each way on both :D
Annie
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I hope the weather clears in time for the Cup Race!
Has anyone found any LOVE family(s) in Essex or other areas mentioned for Joseph & Thomas in 1841 ?
Joseph and Thomas the convicts won’t be in the 1841 census.
I do think that their siblings are the family in Gt Coggleshall.
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If we are going to work on the theory that Joseph the Saddler is NOT Joseph the Convict, (which I think we are agreed is most likely?) then
there are 8 Joseph LOVEs in the 1841 b between 1806 & 1816 and another 3 b c 1821 (but remember this is the 1841 census)
Anyway
In Ancaster, Grantham, Lincolnshire is Joseph LOVE age 25 so born anywhere between 1811 & 1816 born Out of County. He is a journeyman
BUT the other people in the household are a William (25) and Elizabeth (20) WARD and William is a Saddler. William also born out of county but Elizabeth WARD born in Lincolnshire
So it seems reasonable to me that Joseph MIGHT be a Journeyman Saddler.
On 27 June 1836 there is a marriage between William WARD of Ancaster and Elizabeth JOHNSON of Ancaster, at Ancaster, with the consent of all necessary parties. both sign. witnesses Wm Johnson and the clerk (he signs on everyone’s on that page of the register).
They seem to be in 1851 as
William Ward 36, Post Master and Saddler, b Egmanton, Nottinghamshire
Elizabeth Ward 30 Saddler’s wife b Welborne, Lincolnshire
William Edward Ward 7 Saddlers Son, b Ancaster, Lincolnshire
Marian Ward 4 Ancaster
Albina Elizabeth Ward 0 Ancaster
There is no LOVE family in Ancaster in 1851
by 1861 William has moved on to become a “Farmer & Seedsman” address Angel Inn Ancaster
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Although Ancaster is 109 miles from Halstead even if Joseph had to walk or ride, it is just off the A1 which follows the path of the Roman Road, Ermine Street, and this road was also the path of the London to Edinburgh mail coaches so… Not unreasonable for him to move down to Halstead from there.
And it fits with him moving back up to Peterborough
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Well, that's my theory anyway :)
No closer to working out where he might actually be from though :(
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Baptisms for a Joseph with father John 1811 + or - 5 years from FindMyPast
1810 22 July, Joseph Thomas LOVE son of John and Ann (mmn MALLETT) Great Yarmouth
1812 5 April 1812 Kidderminster, Worcestershire. Father’s last name LOVE of Bewdly no christian name. Born 23 Feb 1812. It’s a nonconformist baptism, there is a space left for the parent’s names but none entered.
1812 another nonconformist baptism at Stourport, Worcestershire but it appears to be the same one as the one above.
This time with parents John & Eleanor LOVE of Bewdley Birth date same, baptism date 15 April 1812.
3 Sept 1818 Joseph son of John & Sarah of Bishop Wilton. Yorkshire, John a Carpenter
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Thank you majm for the info on Reply #131, thats my contact, I should have looked before as well. Just received this from her but getting info is a bit like pulling teeth,(hope she's not reading this).
"Joseph Love m Mary Ann Norman 9/11/1857 EbenezerChurch, Little Mapestead, Essex, England.Father John Love - Grocer, Father John Norman - Brewer / owner of a pub in Essex. Joseph 40 yrs, Mary Ann 19 yrs. Joseph Love - Saddler."
EbenezerChurch is a worry as I can't find one ever being in Little Mapestead unless it was an un documented non conformist, the church there is St John the Baptist. I have asked for a copy of the original, still waiting.
Added. It could be Little Maplestead Congregational Church.
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Thank you majm for the info on Reply #131, thats my contact, I should have looked before as well. ......
Don't worry ... I think we are all keen to help each other. So, may I share, as gently as possible, but with concerns for the initial shared info passed to you, solidrock...
You see, you and I are both concerned about submitted trees ...
With this now long thread, I continue to be concerned, ... about the info you have received, and its similar to errr ... submitted trees at Ancestry which display the tree member’s name. It is possible it may be one that your contact has relied on.
This is a summary for the husband of Mary Ann NORMAN
1818 Birth Joseph William LOVE Londonderrry Northern Island, 10 sources
1817 Burial 14 September 1817, Northampton, St Sepulchre, Northamptonshire, England 1 source
1836 Residence 28 June 1836 Essex England Age 24 2 sources
1836 Arrival 1836 Tasmania 2 source
1851 Residence Halstead Essex England 1 source
1857 Marriage Oct 1857 Essex 2 sources
1857 Marriage 1857 Halstead, Essex, England Mary Anne Norman (1841- )
1869 Death of Father John Love (1790-1869), Victoria
1869 Death of Half-brother Thomas Love (1817-1869) Victoria, Australia
1871 Residence, St Giles Essex England, aged 58, Relation Head, 2 sources
1881 Residence 1881 Peterborough Northamptonshire England, 1 source
1883 Death March 1883 Peterborough Northamptonshire England age at death 85 2 sources
Residence Australia 3 sources.
The tree owner : Member (of Ancestry) since 17 Mar 2012. Last signed in ‘Over a year ago’ I am choosing NOT to type up their ancestry member’s name.
The tree also has Thos. Augustus LOVE and err ... born in 1895
JM
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Thanks majm, I'm inclined to agree with you and maybe it's time to end this thread. Thank you everyone for your time.