RootsChat.Com
Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: chrisos on Saturday 03 November 18 23:36 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
I have an old Fraser family tree transcribed from the family Bible going back to the early 1700's in the Kiltarlity area of Inverness. It commences with a Roderick Fraser who had a confirmed daughter named Mary. I have located the baptism of a Mary Fraser in 1748 to father Rory Fraser alias McEan (in Wester Clunes which is where he was known to be from). I believe McEan transcribes to Rory Fraser alias son of John.
Carrying on from this I have located the baptism of a Rory McEan in 1705 in Kilmorack, Inv to "John McEan or vicEan duie vicConil vicRoy". My interpretation of this is Rory McEan, son of John McEan who was the son of John but I am not sure about the remainder ie "duie vicConil vicRoy". Can anyone interpret this for me please. Roy is possibly for Rory but not sure.
I am also wondering if families in the Highlands of Scotland back in the very early years actually had surnames. Suddenly in 1748 Rory becomes a Fraser (earlier children's baptisms show him as McEan). I suspect the family were crofters who took on the Fraser surname but cannot be sure.
Then I have a suspected marriage of Rory Mcean to Anne ninAndrew. I am assuming that this means Ann daughter of Andrew. But Andrew who? Very challenging for sure.
Any help re this would be very much appreciated.
Regards
Chris
-
I can't help you with the intricacies of Scots expression, but assuming your quote is from the first line, I read the last word as Reiry rather than Roy.
We do have a couple of experts in matters Scots, so with luck one will be along to tackle your main questions.
-
Hi
Yes, I agree with you that Roy should be Reiry. The writing isn’t easy to decipher initially, but once pointed out seems obvious. But Reiry who??.
Chris
-
Could 'vic' be the Scots form of the Irish 'Mhic' meaning 'son of'?
The pronunciation would be the same.
-
Hi Dublin1850
Thanks for your reply. Yes I believe the vic means "son of". I would very much like to know what the "duie" refers to though as this would affect my understanding of the continuation of the Ean line - were Conil & Reiry respective fathers or perhaps maternal and paternal grandparents? This has been an interesting learning process.
Regards
Chris
-
Could 'vic' be the Scots form of the Irish 'Mhic' meaning 'son of'?
The pronunciation would be the same.
I wondered that too.
Could "duie" be dubh meaning dark or black, sometimes used to distinguish a man from another with same name - e.g. Black Douglas rather than Red Douglas.
Might the date of 1748 when you noticed the change of surname be significant? 2 years after Culloden. Clampdown on all things Gaelic.
Re. "Anne ninAndrew" Could it be nicAndrew? Nic would be daughter would it not?
-
Hi Maiden Stone
Didn't think of that. 2 years after Culloden makes perfect sense for replacing the name McEan with Fraser. Can someone else expand on this? Was this a common occurrence - would explain the introduction of the name Fraser. So far however, it seems that my ancestors were simply known by their first names.
Also, does anyone know if it was common for whole families to occupy farms such as that at Wester Clunes. Would everyone named Fraser located at Wester Clunes for example, be related?
Regards
Chris
-
Chris, you may receive better answers to these last questions on the Scotland board. I'm not suggesting moving the post - I still have hope that an answer to the language questions will come on this board.
Perhaps start a new post for the general questions on the Scotland board and add a link to the post here.
Also I found this:
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/duoy
Please remember that I have no idea whether this applies to your document and time period (note how late the examples given are).
I mention it only in case it might be helpful.
-
Hi horsleydown86
You have been extremely helpful with the link - thank you very much.
I will also do as suggested and transfer my general questions to the Scotland board.
Thank you
Chris
-
Re. "Anne ninAndrew" Could it be nicAndrew? Nic would be daughter would it not?
'Nic' would be 'daughter of'.
I think 'nin' is probably from a word similar to 'iníon' in Irish, which means daughter.
-
The Lord Lovat of the time apparently encouraged new tenants who took the name Fraser in return for a quantity of meal, "Frasers of the boll of meal!" Could be Simon the 11th Lord Lovat?
Skoosh.
-
Hi Skoosh
This is excellent information. Thank you very much for this.
Chris
-
FWIW this is how I read it, though I am not 100% sure of some bits
Original
At Kilmorack Apr 3 1705
John McEan vic Ean duie vic Conil vic Reary
…. his son called Rory to be baptized
Godfathers Alexr McFergh vic Ean duie
& John McEan vic Eandair vic Conil
vic Eachann
Translation
At Kilmorack Apr 3 1705
John son of dark John son of Connel son of Rory
…. his son called Rory to be baptised
Godfathers Alexander son of ?Fergus son of dark John
and John son of John son of ?Andrew son of Connel son of Hugh
So it seems to contain a 3-generation paternal line of the father and both godfathers, depending on whether you think the names beginning with 'Mc' are surnames as we would understand them these days, or merely the first stage in the paternal line. If the same people later used the surname Fraser it suggests the latter interpretation; in which case the surname was never actually McEan, because they didn't customarily use what we would recognise as surnames.
And yes, nic is the feminine equivalent of mac, so Anna nic Ean would be Anne daughter of John.
Nigheann, pronounced roughly nee-an, is the Scots Gaelic for girl or daughter.
-
Folks, Conil = Donald & Eachann = Hector.
Skoosh.
-
Of course Eachan is Hector. Hugh is Uisdean. Slip of the brain, for which I apologise.
I didn't know that Conil is the equivalent of Donald - thought Donald was Domhnull. How does that work?
-
Forfarian, aspirated it sounds like machkonal or neechkonal, so a nasal conal. U need a feed of salt herring to do it justice really! ;D
-
If it needs salt herring I think I'll pass on it :)
-
Hi Forfarian
Thank you VERY much for completing the translation for me. I had no idea what it was until your email. Very, very helpful.
PS - I definitely DO NOT like salt herrings.
Thanks and best wishes
Chris
-
Hello from Australia. I am a descendant of Frasers from Wester Clunes..William Fraser born 1799 Kiltarlity and his wife Helen Fraser. Born Kiltarlity 180 3 They are my 2xggrandparents. I have been researching their line and visited their graves at Wardlaw 2019 I have been searching for Williams ancestors three brothers all born Kilvarock Hugh 1723 Donald 1721 and Alexander 1727 killed at Culloden. Williams father was Peter Fraser (aka Miller) Cawdor Nairn born 1765. His father was James Fraser born Kilvarock Croy 1724. He is only surviving brother after the deaths at Culloden Now interestly as to your post James' father was Alexander McIan or Fraser born 1695 at Kilvarock Croy. I am also puzzled by name change. I got details through family trees family search looking for the names of the three brothers which I did not know. I now do and would love to know more of them . I wonder if James was possibly at the battle but survived. Can anyone please shed any light on the name change or the brothers?
-
Hi Alexandra
I was in the fortunate position about 25 years ago to receive a copy of a hand written family tree of my Frasers from Kiltarlity, from the Fraser family bible. This "family tree" had travelled from Scotland to New Zealand and finally to Australia. The reason I mention this is that this may also be of interest to your research. Without this, I definitely would never have been able to establish my line of descent to the Frasers of Wester Clunes & Kiltarlity.
I go back to Roderick Fraser (alias McEan). Rory McEn married Ann ninAndrew in 1730 at Kilmorack. By tracing the evolution of Rory's name (ie Rory McEn through to Roderick Fraser), I was able to establish that Rory/Roderick became a Fraser about 1738, thus becoming a "Boll O Meal" Fraser. In other words, Roderick (and most likely others in the family) took the name Fraser in exchange for land and food (a bowl of meal) from Lord Lovat. They would therefore be expected to carry arms for him if needed, which they obviously did at Culloden.
The "family tree" I have shows a very confusing intermarriage - I have 2 siblings Donald F (1) and Mary (1) marrying 2 other siblings Donald F (2) and Mary F (2)... in other words Donald (1) x Mary (2) and Donald (2) x Mary (1). It is the (2) family which shares names of Alexander, Hugh & Donald of course. I am descended from Donald (1) and Mary (2), so therefore both families. At this stage though I haven't researched the (2) family.
Regards
Chris
The Riverina, NSW
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
-
Hi Alexandra
As a side note - my understanding of Rory McEan's parentage ie VicEan duie VicCouil VicReiry, translates as Rory, son of John, grandchild of Conal, great grandchild of Rory.
Regards
Chris
-
I’d be very interested in seeing the family tree! I’m still in Scotland and it’s very hard to find certain information as it’s been ‘lost’
-
A boll of meal is a measure of oatmeal, old Scotch dry measure under 6 bushels, nothing to do with a bowl. ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.