RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: fred21 on Monday 05 November 18 06:54 GMT (UK)
-
Hi
I have very little information so I am hoping someone might be able to tell me what I can do next.
I am trying to trace William KIRKER who married Mary BROWN in Belfast in 1846. I have managed to find this marriage on Find My Past but have had no luck in finding out any other information. William and Mary had a son also named William who immigrate to New Zealand (his parents are listed on his marriage certificate). I have been unable to find a birth for him yet.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
many thanks
-
Marriage of WILLIAM KIRKER
in 1846
Group Registration ID N/R
SR District/Reg Area Belfast
Returns Year 1846
Returns Quarter 1
Returns Volume No 2
Returns Page No 798
??
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01myz/
Images expected online "shortly"
-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/what-civil-records-are-on-line
-
Also http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mz0/ Marriage results for Kirker of Belfast from 1860 to 1875 when they come online, for siblings marrying.
-
Is this your William KIRKER?
NZ BDM marriage
1884/3012 William KIRKER m. Isabel WATT
Do you have his death certificate?
-
a bit strange
William Kirker only appears once for a marriage in 1846
yet there are two matches Mary Brown and Mary Anne Wilson
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mz1/
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGFG-2LZ
William an Engineer on Edmond McClure Kirker's birth 1867
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03501/2286808.pdf
-
There seem to be more than one William Kirker in Belfast area and it might be easy to start tracing the wrong family. How do you know that the William Kirker in N.Z. was the son of William Kirker & Mary Brown?
1846 marriage for William Kirker- father's name is James
Searching for children of William Kirker & Mary Wilson brings up several possible children-
Edmond McClure Kirker (1867)- LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03501/2286808.pdf) (father- engineer)
Charles McKeown Kirker (1869)- LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1869/03376/2237592.pdf) (father- mechanic)
Thomas Kirker (1871)- LINK (https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1871/03300/2209483.pdf) (father- engineer)
-
Can you please list all the information on the marriage certificate for William KIRKER.
Do you have the death certificate for William KIRKER, died 1914, Wyndham, NZ?
It would ask for his birthplace and years in NZ.
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers
Southland Times 10 Feb 1914
KIRKER. — On Saturday evening, February 7 at his residence, Wyndham, William KIRKER, farmer, native of Victoria, the beloved husband of Isabella KIRKER; aged 77 years. The friends of the late William KIRKER are respectfully invited to attend bis funeral, which will leave his late residence, Wyndham. on Tuesday, 10th inst, at 2.20 o’clock p.m, for the Wyndbam Cemetery.
-
Hi Everyone
Thanks for all the help.
William's marriage certificate states the following:
18 Sept 1884 • Invercargill, Southland, New Zealand
Age: 35
Occupation: Carpenter
Martial Status: Bachelor
Birthplace: Boningong, Victoria, Australia.
Father: William KIRKER, carpenter
Mother: Mary BROWN
Unfortunately William seems to have lied quite a bit and all various certificates etc that I have for him he has put different information in regards to his age and birthplace. On some he says he was born in Belfast and on others that he was born in Victoria, Australia. And that he was born sometime between 1837-1850.
I have checked out the Victoria, Australia connection and no William KIRKER WAS born there at any stage. I even wrote to the historical society in Boningong, Victoria and they were adamant that there had never been any Kirkers in Boningong and that it wasn't possible for him to have been born there when he said he was as there were no white settlers living there at that time.
I am hoping he didn't lie about who his parents were.
His death certificate unfortunately has almost no information on it so that is no help.
As his marriage is the earliest record of him it's the one I am relying on the most for information.
Hope this helps.
Many thanks
-
BDM NZ
1884/3012 Isabel WATT / William KIRKER
Can you please complete the information from this certificate. It should have information about Isabel......identify a church?.........name witnesses.......
".. all various certificates etc that I have for him he has put different information in regards to his age and birthplace. On some he says he was born in Belfast and on others that he was born in Victoria, Australia. "
Can you please list all the information on the death certificate, including the name of the informant, and time in the country.
For all occasions where you see a recorded birthplace for William, can you identify each of them, with source ( eg. informant on birth or death certificate) and the circumstance of the record if it is not a BDM certificate.
Do you have a signature for William among your documents.....might be handy.
-
Birthplace: Boningong, Victoria, Australia
Given the name of place is unusual, I would say it’s not something he just picked out of the blue.
Shouldn’t it be those at Buninyong, you made contact with?
Jamjar
-
Yes it is sometimes spelt Buninyong and yes I did contact them and no they are absolutely certain that he was not born there or anywhere close by or that there were any Kirker's there at all. So I'm fairly certain that this is a red-herring - though I haven't crossed it off completely.
Death certificate for 1914
Name: William Kirker
Age: 77 (which would put his birth as 1837)
Where born: Bunniygong, Victoria, Australia
How long in New Zealand: 44 years (which meant he came to New Zealand around 1869/1870
Name of father: not known
Name of mother: not known
Profession of father: not known
There is no informant mentioned - just has the name of the medical attendant and when the attendant last saw him.
On his marriage certificate for 1884 he states his age as 35 which would mean he was born c1849 which is 12 years later than his age on his death cert.
On his son Robert Alexander birth cert he states his age as 44 which gives a birth date of c1850 and birthplace is just Victoria.
On one of his other children's birth cert his birth date works out to be c1845 and his birthplace is Belfast, Ireland.
I haven't yet managed to find an immigration record for him to New Zealand so can't confirm when and where he came from with that either.
His marriage certificate is the earliest document and since he gave the information is hopefully the most reliable.
The Australian connection is very confusing as the records for Victoria, Australia BDM's are very good but he's not on any of them and the place he mentions says he could not have been born there as it was not settled during the 1837-1850 time period so there is no way he could have been born there.
I did find this Australian record which might shed some light... or not :)
"A William Kirker was transported to Australia on the 10 Sept 1846 to NSW - ship "Henry Packer?" sentenced to 12 years - was this man his father?- source the Phoenix Hulk Transportation Entrance Records for 1838-1846 "
and also this Belfast record
"21 Sep 1859 • Belfast
12 year old William Henry Kirker disappeared - his parents were William Kirker and Mary Ann Wilson"
With all the leds to William Kirker hitting a dead end I thought looking at his parents might help (though I know it is not the best way to do things). Hence the query about William KIRKER and Mary BROWN.
Hope this helps
-
Can you please give attention to this request -
BDM NZ
1884/3012 Isabel WATT / William KIRKER
Can you please complete the information from this certificate. It should have information about Isabel......identify a church?.........name witnesses.......
"..On one of his other children's birth cert his birth date works out to be c1845 and his birthplace is Belfast, Ireland."
Which birth is this. Who is the informant?. Is father William KIRKER the informant?.
Where did you find this -
"21 Sep 1859 • Belfast
12 year old William Henry Kirker disappeared - his parents were William Kirker and Mary Ann Wilson"
-
Not sure if this will help also but the names of William and Isobel children were
Agnes Jane
William James
Jessie Isabella
John Thomas
Mary Milne
Robert Alexander
Elizabeth Margaret
Christina Florine
Peter Silvester
Catherine Davidson
All born in New Zealand but I thought I would include their names as maybe there are naming patterns in Ireland like there are in Scotland etc. and perhaps some of the names appear in other KIRKER families in Ireland
-
Marriage certificate has no witnesses mentioned or church. Just states Invercargill as the place.
Isobel was born in Scotland which the certificate states
As for the other birth I haven't got that certificate as it was information that was given to me by another family member who had the cerfiticate. The informants on Roberts was an agent so I'm guessing it was the same for this other child and all the children.
William lived in a pretty remote part of New Zealand so he probably sent someone else into town to registrar the births.
The information about the missing boy was from Ancestry.
-
What certificates do you have - in front of you now, and accessible as information to people on a forum?
The marriage certificate, 1884 - where did you get it? You need to see the original record. A legal marriage would need to have witnesses. Witnesses are important information as they are often relatives, even if the names might not be familiar to you.
You have 10 recorded births to William KIRKER and Isabel WATT.
Where William is the informant on a birth certificate, how does he give his birthplace?
Do you have a birth certificate for a KIRKER child with father William KIRKER named as the informant?
You have said that he lies about his birthplace. You need to be specific and identify where you see William KIRKER giving conflicting information about his birthplace..........William, not someone else giving his birthplace.
Otherwise you have William, at marriage 1884 identifying his birthplace as Victoria.
-
Fred, does it actually say Belfast, Ireland?
I asked this because some years back I was searching for an ancestor from Belfast Ireland, only to discover it was Belfast Victoria, which I didn’t know existed.
On Papers Past there is a Kirker arriving from Melbourne. Unfortunately, there was no first name.
As an aside, have seen his will? He leaves all to Isobel and son John.
Jamjar
-
I think this must be the "Belfast" item:
We have been requested to mention, that a boy, named William Henry Kirker, aged about twelve years, left his parents; house, 120, Kennedy's place, Shankhill Road, about three weeks ago, and has not since been heard of. He is of fair complexion, and has blue eyes. When he left home, he was habited in a blue frock coat, dark trousers, and dark cap. Any person who can give any information concerning him to the chief of the constabulary, or to his unhappy parents, will be performing an act of Christian duty.
Northern Whig 21 September 1859
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/62029609/story/68beb66a-1d06-4f25-8334-c4ba6ade8c8b
-
All the certificates I have are the official full certificates issued by the New Zealand Births, Deaths and Marriages office in Wellington and none of our official certificates list the witnesses etc on certificates (maybe it's the NZ BDMS policy or something - I don't know why they do this but they do and I have a lot of certificates from them)
The only way to possibly get more information would be to visit the BDM office in Wellington and then request to look at each record in person, though I am not sure if they still provide this access and currently I am unable to visit them as I live a few hours drive away from the office. Next time I am in Wellington I will try to visit them and see if they will let me view the original record.
As far as we know neither William or Isabel had any family living in New Zealand. They were both immigrants.
William is not the informant on any of his children's birth certificates - an agent is listed as the informant - again probably because William lived quite remotely and far from any city.
All the information except his marriage certificate is from other people as informants i.e. death cert, children's birth certs, headstone, etc.
So if we take his marriage as true then he was born in Buniygong, Victoria which I have definitely confirmed is not true. So once again we are back to square one. It's possible he was born somewhere else in Victoria BUT I have had their BDM records searched and there are no William Kirkers mentioned in any of the records.
It is possible his birth was never registered in Australia anywhere which means we will never know where he actually came from.
Hence the investigation into his parents William KIRKER and Mary BROWN.
-
Read this -
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/paymentsandproducts
I think the document you need is a printout, not a certificate.
Phone the people at BDM and ask which record will be an image of a handwritten original because that is what you need.
You need to see the full marriage record.
If William gives his birthplace as Buniygong, it does not mean that this is incorrect information. He is probably using the name given later, to the general area where he was born.
-
Southland Times 10 Feb 1914
KIRKER. — On Saturday evening, February 7 at his residence, Wyndham, William KIRKER, farmer, native of Victoria, the beloved husband of Isabella KIRKER; aged 77 years. The friends of the late William KIRKER are respectfully invited to attend bis funeral, which will leave his late residence, Wyndham. on Tuesday, 10th inst, at 2.20 o’clock p.m, for the Wyndbam Cemetery.
Mataura Ensign, 10 February 1914
Detailed obit of William Kirker (halfway down)
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ME19140210.2.48?
Says born Plank Road, Buninyong!
-
Yes I did think about Buniygong not be the actual place but someplace near pr the general area etc BUT I have looked into this thoroughly by contacting various historical societies and going through all the Victoria BDM's and there are no Kirker's there listed anywhere for that state.
Although we can never be 100% accurate because records do get lost and people do sometimes not get registered on any official documents so there is a very small chance that William was born in Victoria and just not listed anywhere. Strange though that there are no other Kirker's for the state of Victoria during 1800 to 1875 as I would have thought at least one of his parents or possibly a sibling might have died there etc. But no there are no Kirkers mentioned anywhere. Which is kind of odd.
This pretty much does make you think that he didn't come from there and perhaps lied for some reason. Maybe escaping a marriage or a crime or family?
We may never know.
I will definitely try to see if I can get a printout of his marriage and see if it has any extra information though I am not hopeful. I will ask around some of the other distant family members and see if they have a printout and what information is on it.
For now I guess this is a brick wall that will remain.
So far I have tried pretty much everything in New Zealand and Australia. Ireland was kind of my last hope...
Maybe one day :)
Thanks so much for all your help and suggestions.
-
Plank Rd: https://bih.federation.edu.au/index.php/Plank_Road
Jamjar
-
thanks for the obit.
I looked into the Plank Road thing etc but once again it was all a dead end. No Kirker's anywhere. And Plank Road didn't exist until the late 1850's which would once again change William's age to being even younger than we thought. Which is a possibility.
Funny thing - his age on his death certificate was 77, 78 on the obit and 70 on his headstone. Seems his family didn't really know how old he was either :)
-
thanks for the 2nd link - sadly it's an unsecure connection so my browser won't let me go there and open it up.
-
Strange though that there are no other Kirker's for the state of Victoria during 1800 to 1875 as I would have thought at least one of his parents or possibly a sibling might have died there etc. But no there are no Kirkers mentioned anywhere.
You will find 8 listings for KIRKER on VICBDM, for years 1863-1883:
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
-
Use this to find KIRKERS. Note the names.....including REA.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
Then use BDM NZ https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
To see the same KIRKER - REA names
-
Use this to find KIRKERS. Note the names.....including REA.
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
Then use BDM NZ https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
To see the same KIRKER - REA names
I don’t think there is a connection, as Marcella died in 1873 and John remarried the following year. Only two children born to John and Marcella and the daughter died in infancy.
It would be interesting to find John, Annie and son John Alexander in NZ.
Jamjar
-
The VIC Kirker’s deaths in QLD:
1911 B14204 John Kirker parents John Kirker and Jane McClenehan
1915 B21018 John Alexander Kirker parents John Kirker and Margaret Marcella Rea
Jamjar
-
Thanks for that. Nice to see some Kirker's finally showing up on the Vic BDM, last time I looked there were none (though that was awhile ago).
There are some Rea's Kirkers in the NZ BDM but as far as I know they are not related to my William Kirker.
When I first started trying to trace this family I wrote to every single Kirker in New Zealand. Quite a few replied back and it seems there are 2 separate Kirker families in NZ. One is quite well to do and many of them are Doctors,Lawyers, Artists. The other Kirker family (mine) is the other branch. We did discuss a possible connection but if there is one it goes back to before NZ and this family's NZ ancestor was definitely not a brother or a cousin of William. (pity).
I will keep searching both through the NZ and Australian ends to see if anything turns up and maybe even go back to all the places I contacted before to see if there is any new information. Looks like I'll be sending lots of emails to all the Australian records offices and historical societies again :)
I have also been thinking about writing to every Kirker in Australia - maybe one of them will know something.
Looks like the Ireland thing is probably a dead end then at the moment. Would have been nice to have traced William Kirker (senior) and Mary Brown to see where they ended up and if they really were his parents.
Thanks everyone for all your help.
Looks like I am for now back to square one and starting all over again.
-
No Kirker's or Watt's as witnesses on the William's marriage which doesn't surprise me.
Back to square one. Pondering as to whether to contact all the historical societies in Victoria again and asking them to check again for William Kirker or any other Kirker's for the time period 1835-1870 but not sure if they will be willing to check again.
Has anyone else ever gone to a source to double check something?
For now the brick wall remains...
-
a bit strange
William Kirker only appears once for a marriage in 1846
yet there are two matches Mary Brown and Mary Anne Wilson
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mz1/
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FGFG-2LZ
There are four marriages on that page - DONNERY/GREY, COATES/SHAW, KIRKER/WILSON, and Mary BROWN married Samuel McNAUGHTON.
Debra :)
-
Civil registration did not start in Victoria until 1853 so you will not find a birth certificate for anyone born prior to that. Indexed events before 1853 are from church records of baptisms, marriages and burials so you would be relying on those events being recorded, surviving, and included in the indexing.
Debra :)
-
Has anyone else ever gone to a source to double check something?
They say do everything again.
From what I can see of him, William Kirker appears to have been a bit of a character. Could he have changed his name?
The earliest possible sighting of him?
In the newspapers, and going on that obit, there is William Kirker and the Cromwell Hospital affair, which was in 1875. A row about an admission ticket.
Cromwell Argus
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CROMARG18750908.2.12
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CROMARG18750908.2.7
https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/CROMARG18750915.2.14.1
Not sure if there are any records back that far for the hospital.
Prior to that he is supposed to have been in New Zealand for a period and then gone back home to Victoria, but you haven't found anything on that?
John
-
Thanks Debra :)
Damn looks like that William Kirker/Mary Brown lead is a bust then.
Yeah I thought his possible birth was too early for the civil records - local churches etc will be the place to check. I'll see if I can find a list of them or if there is a place where those early births etc are stored.
Thanks John
Yes he does seem a bit of a character
Starting to think he lied about just about everything. And yes it had occured to me that maybe he had lied even about his name. Criminal on the run? Leaving behind another wife and family somewhere?
Ooo I hadn't seen those paperspast articles before. Going to read them now. Seems like he got in trouble a few times going by some other news article I found awhile ago.
Thanks everyone again for all the help. Our ancestors certainly don't make it easy to track them down