RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Westmeath => Topic started by: GeoffTurner on Tuesday 06 November 18 04:24 GMT (UK)
-
Hi, I am trying to find out more about my great grandmother, Catherine Brennan. She was born around 1848 (she seems to have given a variety of birth dates as it suited her) in Mullingar, County Westmeath. Her father Dennis (or Thomas or Patrick) Brennan was a schoolmaster, although when Catherine married, she signed with a cross, so presumably never learnt to write. Her mother was named Catherine or Margaret and her mother's maiden name was Falt, Kensley, Newman or Lennon (there are several schools of thought, as you can see). My great grandmother Catherine travelled from Mullingar to Belfast where she got free passage on the Kapunda (which later sank in 1887 with great loss of life). But Catherine's voyage was successful and the ship deposited her at Townsville in Queensland in November 1875. There she met my great grandfather William Turner and they married at Millchester, Queensland in April 1876. She was a Catholic but they were married under the rites of the Presbyterian Church. They died together in a house fire on a property near Lockhart in NSW in 1908 and sadly are buried in separate parts of the local cemetery, her in the Catholic section and him in the Anglican section. We know a lot about the Turner side of the family but as you can tell, the background of Catherine remains largely a mystery despite our best efforts. Any help would be gratefully received. Geoff Turner
-
I see that her NSW death registration does not give parents’ names. Were there no parents on her marriage certificate?
How have you come up with all the names you have in your post?
As per Rootschat policy, you need to remove your email address.
Jamjar
-
Welcome to RootsChat Geoff.
I hope you can find what you are looking for here. I can't help but now that you have made 4 posts, you can use the Private Messages system (that little green square under your name in the post) to give out your email address to those who might need it. (Might be a good idea to take it out of your on-air post - not really recommended)
OOps - Jamjar posted while I was typing.
Cheers, Wiggy
-
Sorry, I have removed the email address. Dennis Brennan and Catherine Newman are from the marriage certificate. The other names are from baptism certificates for girls of the same name born around that time.
-
Marriage certs are the most reliable, as it is the parties involved who provide the information. Of course there are those who tell porkies, at time of marriage.
I see that she was 25 when she arrived and 60, in 1908. So, birth 1848-1850.
What age is on the marriage cert?
Did they only have one child? 1877 C2800 James Ransville Turner parents William and Catherine Brennan
Have you connected this name to William’s side? Ransville
Jamjar
-
Marriage certificate in 1876 says 22yo. That would make birth date about 1854 but I think it likely she was fudging a bit there, as you say. Roots Ireland has a Catherine Brennan baptised at Mullingar on 11 Nov 1847, daughter of Thomas Brennan and Margaret Lennon, which is where those names come from. They have another girl baptised there 11 Nov 1852, closer to the date on the marriage certificate, but that girl's parents were James Brennan and Catherine Gay. The marriage cert definitely says Dennis Brennan and Catherine Newman. The reports of the deaths in 1908 say both Catherine and her husband were over 60 (i.e. born before 1848), but that may not be reliable.
-
Yes, it does, and also calls them an OLD couple. ;D
Bottom, 2nd las column: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14913744
Who was the informant on the death certs?
Was William’s age stated correctly on it?
Folks more adept than I when it comes to Irish records will better assist. I’m sure it’s possible that there are missing records, though.
Jamjar
-
William and Catherine had five children, all boys, one of them my grandfather, who I knew well. I have William's death cert (he was 66) but not hers. James Rounsevell Turner was their first son. The Turner family came to Australia from Cornwall, James Turner and Mary (nee Rounsevell) were the first to make the trip, as free settlers to South Australia. They were Catherine's mother- and father-in-law. A cousin has researched the family and written a small book so we are well-served that way but we just can't seem to get any further with Catherine. Another cousin has even been back to Ireland without success.
-
Yes the age on William's death cert is correct. The informant on his death certificate was their second son John. I have another press clipping about the fire which describes them as both "well over 60 years of age", which is one of the reasons I think Catherine's claim to be only 22 when she married in 1876 might be gilding the lily a little.
-
Can you please list all the information on this marriage certificate -
BDM QLD marriage
1876 C430 Catherine BRENNAN / William TURNER
What names do you have for their children?
-
Sure.
1876 District of Kennedy Colony of Queensland, registered by William Samwell.
No 145 (No. 430 in margin)
3rd April 1876 Millchester [now a suburb of Charters Towers in north Queensland]
William Turner (Bachelor, South Australia, miner, age 33) Parents James Turner, gentleman, Mary Seymore [William's mother's maiden name was actually Rounsevell]
Catherine Brennan (Spinster, Mullingar Ireland, no occupation, age 22) Parents Dennis Brennan, Schoolmaster, and Catherine Newman.
Place of residence for both: Millchester
Married at Beggum's Hotel, Millchester, under the Rites of the Presbyterian Church.
This marriage was solemnised between us
William Turner
X Catherine Brennan (her mark)
In the presence of us John Chalmers and Sarah Ann Williams
by me James Carson Officiating Minister
I have just found a funeral card which gives their ages at their deaths in 1908 as 66 and 60, so on that basis Catherine would have been born about 1848 and would have been about 28 years old when she married in 1876.
The Kapunda list in 1875 has her as 25, and her birth date as about 1850.
So there are several ways to estimate her birth year and in this case, the marriage cert seems the least reliable of all.
-
William Turner and Catherine Brennan had five sons.
James Rounsevell b 1877 Charters Towers Qld.
John Joseph b 1879 Donald Vic
William Henry b 1884 Birchip Vic
Charles Gordon b 1886 Birchip Vic
Alfred Horace b 1889 Birchip Vic.
In 1893, after 19 years in Victoria, they sold up and moved to Lockhart in NSW, where they died together in the house fire in 1908.
-
"..In 1893, after 19 years in Victoria, they sold up and moved to Lockhart in NSW,"
This doe not fit with other information about this family. Where are you seeing this....from a death certificate?
Can you give all the information from the certificate please?
Why did they move to NSW?
Charles Gordon TURNER, WW1 #2258, is not literate, even at 1933. And his BRENNAN grandfather, Dennis, is a schoolteacher?
You often see children named to suggest paternal / maternal grandparents, so you might expect TURNER sons born to Catherine BRENNAN to have name Dennis as first or second given name.
Not so with the TURNER sons.
I wonder if Dennis BRENNAN, schoolteacher, is husband of Catherine's mother, but not her father?
-
Death certificate for William Turner, husband of Catherine Brennan.
The places to write are numbered but this is what I assume they mean
2 Mar 1908 Brookong, Lockhart (that would be date and place of death)
William Turner, farmer
male 66 years
Deceased bodies found in building that had been destroyed by fire .... etc. H Barnaby Coroner.
Parents James Turner, carpenter/wheelwright; Mary Rounsevell
Certified by John J Turner Son, Lockhart, witness's name obscured.
Methodist (religion, but there would not have been a Methodist section of the cemetery) 7 Mar 1908 Lockhart (burial date)
Rev J Hoonborn (?) Church of England (I know William is buried in the C of E section of Lockhart cemetery)
R. V Griffin
John Wallis (witnesses?)
Willunga Sth Aust (place of birth; the following would be where he had lived)
Sth Aust 16 years
Qld 17 years
Victoria 19 years
NSW 14 years
Queensland 33 years Catherine Brennan (where married, for how long, to whom)
A list of the 5 sons living, none deceased.
The wife of a cousin, Pauline Turner, has been researching the family for many years and produced a booklet, "Cornwall to Australia: James and Mary Turner and family". Some of the documents and the reference to them selling up in Victoria and moving to NSW are in that. I remember my grandfather telling me his parents had died in a house fire on Brookong station.
Pauline must have seen Catherine's death certificate, although it was not reproduced in her book. She says it lists her religion as Catholic, her son was the informant (probably John since he was the informant for William at the same time).
Pauline says that William and Catherine moved from Queensland and took up a selection at Narraport in Victoria, not far from Birchip, in 1880. Droughts crippled his crops, rabbits were moving into the area and there was an outbreak of pleuro-pneumonia in 1892 which she thinks might have been killed some of his stock and been the last straw. So he sold his land and held a clearing sale without reserve in 1893. He moved to Brookong Station and took a labouring job and was living in a cottage on the station when the fire engulfed their house.
Pauline has done an excellent job so if you have an interest in the family I could put you in touch with her if you like.
-
I now have the death certificate for Catherine Brennan. I will quote it in full, it explains some of the things I wasn't sure of with the cert for her husband William Turner.
2nd March 1908 Brookong Lockhart Catherine Turner female 60 years.
Charred bodies found in building destroyed by fire. No evidence to show how fire originated.
Inquest held at Lockhart on 3 and 4 Mar (signed) H Parnaby Coroner.
Name, occupation of father; name, maiden name of mother, all unknown. (in a transcription this is changed in hand-written note to mother's maiden name Brennan)
Informant John J Turner, son, Lockhart.
Buried 5 Mar 1908, Lockhart
Undertaker James Nolan and Sons
Minister M J Sheahy
Roman Catholic
R Griffin John Wallis witnesses
born Westmead, Ireland (in transcription this is changed to Mullingar, Westmeath, Ireland)
4 yrs Qld, 19 yrs Vic, 14 yrs NSW
Married in Qld, age at marriage 27
Spouse William Turner
List of 5 sons all living, none deceased.
Inquest Lockhart 3 and 4 Mar 1908.
-
Are there any other names listed from Mullingar on the ship's manifest. It might help narrow down things or point to some outlying parishes?
-
Good thought. But the Kapunda manifest I have lists only names and ages, not places of birth.
-
That's a pity...just a thought.
-
My sister and I have now arranged for memorials to be placed on the unmarked graves of Catherine Brennan and William Turner at Lockhart. We are using the birth date of 1848 and maiden name of Brennan for Catherine They will be bronze plaques on polished granite "desks" on reinforced concrete bases. Several other relatives are also contributing. One of these relatives told me yesterday that after the tragedy of the house fire and the tragedy of them being buried in different parts of the cemetery there was a further tragedy. The local priest refused to give Catherine the last rites because the charred remains were intermingled to an extent and he didn't want to accidentally give the last rites to a Protestant portion of the remains. I hope that is just a family myth, the story is sad enough without that.
-
It may not be a myth.
My Grandparents died 6 mths apart in 1910 and are buried outside the fence of the Family Plot.
The reason is that theirs was a mixed Marriage Catholic/Protestant and the Plot was consecrated Catholic ground.
Luckily the Headstones were lovely though, Loved Son of .. and Daug in law of ..
Trish
-
Hi Geoff
Fellow Aussie here, tracing my own family.
May I suggest looking at the shipping records. I know about the Kapunda, I am glad your family arrived here safely. With shipping records, we have the Australian ones, BUT.... remember that Australia was not a Country until 1901, so some records ARE on the national archives here but there are records held by the Colonial Secretrary - that means ALL paperwork for every area of Australia are held by NSW too.
BUT... I would use the shipping records from the UK - England... because they coordinated the shipping, even for ships leaving Dublin. There are always two shipping records - outgoing and incoming. The outgoing shipping records seem to be more reliable - they are obviously familiar with the geographical locations in Ireland so have recorded more accurate data. That would be my first goto because you could be given exact locations to start your search
-
Also, the Kapunda was HUGE news, check Trove for newspapers - the arrival would have been a big deal, the standout compared to other ships arriving at the same time. I know I have read Kapunda on Trove because thats how I found the story. But there may be websites or blogs JUST for the Kapunda, from other descendants who had ancestors arrive here on the ship.
Look for the Surgeons Log, the shipping list/log. It has a tonne of informamation usually. It can even have something as minor as the age being 19 6/12 months, so you can work out exactly which MONTH they were born in a specific year.