RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Mart 'n' Al on Thursday 08 November 18 17:52 GMT (UK)
-
In 1891 I found James Dorward and his foxy new bride Ellen, both recently married for the second time, chilling out with his four children, Margory, Alexander, Kate and James S., from his first marriage, in 11, Felix Road, Ealing, RG12/1030
Ellen's son, James Laird McLaren, from HER previous marriage is shacked up a few hundred yards up the road in 22, Alexandra Road Ealing, RG12/1030 with Ellen's mother and stepfather, Barbara and James Laird. (The 1891 census wrongly shows Barbara's name as Rebecca.) Barbara and James both kicked the bucket in the mid/late 1890s.
In 1901 I can find no trace of ANY of them at all, and in 1911 I can't find James Dorward nor any of his children.
In 1911 Ellen, and her son James Laird McLaren are living in 22 Grove Road, Barnes. She describes herself as married for 20 years, but no sign of James Dorward. She says married, not widowed.
James Dorward was a ship's master, so it is CONCEIVABLE that he was away at sea in 1901 and 1911, but where were his children? Also, being born in 1842 he must be nearing the end of his career. And where were Ellen and James in 1901?
Thanks for any further information.
Martin
-
Could this be the marriage of Margery
Dec qtr 1896
Dorward Margery Smith
Winsdale Henry Arthur
Brentford 3a 173
They are at 39 Osterley Park View Road, Hanwell in 1901
RG13 /1206 f56 p51
ADDED She was buried 5 August age 52 - Image on F M P
-
Possibly Ellen and James in Chiswick 1901, Ellen says she is a widow surname McLaren
Piece: 1197
Folio: 50
Page Number: 22
Household schedule number: 163
-
I wonder if Alexander is Alexander Simpson Dorward, Who is a Chief Engineer in 1933. Shows up on lots of vessels, I haven’t looked at them all.
There is an Alexander Simpson Dorward born Ferry Port on Craig, Fife.
Looking for Kate M, only birth I can see on Scotland’s People that might fit is for a Catherine McDon rest of name not showing) Dorward, also at Ferry P
AND MarJory Smith Dorward also born Ferry P
And James Smith Dorward ditto
If that is the family then mother was Catherine Simpson. And there are older children with her in 1881
And another child John Braid Dorward b 1888 who died same year along with Catherine
-
Rosie99, I think that is her, despite a different spelling of her first name. Age 25 and Scotland fit. Thank you.
Mckha489, What address do you have for 1901, I can't find her. I wonder why she would resort to McLaren, only to change 10 years later. Perhaps it was easier for her son if she had the name of his late father, rather than Dorward, and then she changed again after he came of age?
Alexander is definitely Alexander Simpson Dorward, I found him and his siblings at Ferry Port on Sotlandspeople. He also travelled to the US once or twice. What do you see him on in 1933?
Thanks for the help, I'd been struggling for a while, but Ellen's name appeared on her step-father's death cert which arrived yesterday. She had a hard life, her father drowned in the Tay when she was a year old, then her first husband threw himself overboard from a ship in 1886. She might have had an earlier husband, Alexander McCulloch, who might have given her a 1874 child Robert, neither of whom I can't trace. I don't have their marriage cert as I am not sure enough. Her step-father is my main interest. Reports of the 1886 suicide mention a widow and two children, one of whom is James Laird McLaren, but was the other one Robert McCulloch, and where did he disappear to?
Please don't stop now!
Martin
-
1901 address for Ellen is no 37 whatever this says....Swanscombe?
-
Suspect this is James in 1913, Crew List, he’s 2nd Engineer
Name: James Dorward
Arrival date: 28 Jun 1913
Port of Arrival: United States
Birth Date: abt 1881
Age: 32
Nationality: British
Port of Departure: Limon
Ship Name: Orleanian
Added, so I don’t think you will find either James or Alexander in 1901/1911. Both at sea. (added - but see later message, Alexander and Kate)
Added again, James shows up in 1894 back in Ferryport back to school, last school attended St John’s London
-
Marriage
DORWARD
KATE MACDONALD
BEHARIE
DAVID FETTES
1903
429/ 12
Ferry Port On Craig
Added newspaper describes her father as Captain Dorward, Tayport, so still alive 1903
-
Some of the crew lists are on Family Search https://www.familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A%22Alexander%20simpson%22~%20%2Bsurname%3ADorward~
Possible wife for Alexander further down page. Janet Forsyth Robertson. She died 1935
-
Interesting household here at Ferryport in 1901. Can’t look at the image of course
Members:
Name Age
Robert Husband 45
Margaret Husband 46
Ann Sturrock 24
William K Husband 22
Margaret N Husband 19
Bella N Husband 16
Robert Husband 14
Lily N Husband 13
Kate Dorward 23
Alexander Dorward 21
-
Rosie99, I think that is her, despite a different spelling of her first name. Age 25 and Scotland fit. Thank you.
Image is on Ancestry. Father is James a sailor.
-
Retirement notice for Captain James Dorward
10 April 1908 - Dundee Evening Telegraph - Dundee, Angus, Scotland
He’s going back to London where his children are.
Other articles about his seamanship of Captain Dorward but it seems there may be more than one!
-
Found Kate and family in Walthamstow in 1911. james isn’t with her.
-
Solicitors notice re claims on his estate
Captain James Dorward , Tayport, latterly resided at Muirhead on Liff, Dundee
Dated 23 Nov 1917
27 November 1917 - Dundee Courier -
NB sorry if I’m duplicating anything, I keep getting a message to say someone else has posted while I’m writing, but when I check there are no new postings.
Added death reg
DORWARD
JAMES
75
1917
301/ 82
Liff, Benvie and
And this must be him in 1911
DORWARD
JAMES
1911
M
69
429/ 3/ 14
Ferry Port On Craig
Fife
-
To confuse things there is another James B Dorward death at Muirhead of Liff in 1917, that one is a Schoolmaster, son of a schoolmaster.
-
Mckha, this is all quite amazing. I have spent hours recently searching the Newspaper Archive, and failed to find what you have found. I will digest this (over the next few days/weekend) and comment in full.
1881 is the dob of James Smith Dorward, his son.
1911, is James Dorward living in Scotland, or just there between ships?
James Dorward senior, b1842, was First Mate on on one of Captain Laird's vessels in, I think, 1875. He must have met Ellen, born Lawson (Barbara's daughter) either before or after her marriage to John McLaren, before finally marrying him in 1890.
Captain Laird is the Great great grandfather of my Alice of Mart'n'Al. Her family has a wonderful portrait of Captain Laird and he looks a truly imposing man. I was a bit sad when I found out that he was only five feet five. He sailed the world for almost 50 years, between 1835 and his retirement, including San Francisco, Rio, and many many visits to Cape Town, Rangoon, China, Australia, and the islands between the two last.
Thanks again for all your work. After I've taken it all in, over the next few days, I'll ask what resources you used. I must work on Ellen and 'Swanscombe'.
EDIT 22:54 I have found Ellen 'McLaren' (transcribed as 'Ellen M Lazen') and James at 37 Swanscombe Road, Chiswick, just three streets away from where she was a witness to Captain Laird's death in 1897, but she lists herself as widow, yet in 1911, she says she is 20 years married.
Any comments? From anyone?
Martin
-
EDIT 22:54 I have found Ellen 'McLaren' (transcribed as 'Ellen M Lazen') and James at 37 Swanscombe Road, Chiswick, just three streets away from where she was a witness to Captain Laird's death in 1897, but she lists herself as widow, yet in 1911, she says she is 20 years married.
Any comments? From anyone?
I notice the 1911 is filled out and signed by James as Head of house. Perhaps he was just being pedantically correct.
-
Meanwhile Martin (or anyone else with connections)...
Marriage?
MCLAREN JOHN
LAWSON ELLEN
1882
393/B 1 Stanley (Perth)
Births?
MCLAREN JAMES LAIRD 1883
387/ 311 Perth
MCLAREN BARBARA LAIRD 1884
387/ 401 Perth
Edit, to add;
Parents marriage...Edit...Can't be surely or was this a 2nd marriage or just a coincidence with surname & mothers' ms or a sibling or relative & maybe a skeleton in there :-\ ??? ;D
LAWSON JOHN
GARDINER BARBARA
1882
387/ 6 Perth
Annie
Add...What lead you to believe there may have been another marriage to a McCulloch or at least another son named Robert?
I can't find a marriage so far.
-
1881 is the dob of James Smith Dorward, his son.
.
Yes. His actual dob is on several of the records I found. (Didn’t write it down sorry)
1911, is James Dorward living in Scotland, or just there between ships?
I think living there. He retired 1908, was supposed to be going to London to children. Perhaps he didn’t like it, came back and went to live at Muirhead with a relation?? Hence death of the other James the school teacher of same place. But I think you need to look at the 1911 census.
-
Add...What lead you to believe there may have been another marriage to a McCulloch or at least another son named Robert?
I can't find a marriage so far.
I couldn’t see anything either. Was ignoring that side 😀
-
Meanwhile Martin (or anyone else with connections)...
Couldn’t you sleep Annie?
-
To fill in a few gaps, here is everything that I knew up until yesterday morning.
I have added it as a PDF. Thanks for all your efforts. I found several retirement notices for James Dorward yesterday. Thanks for your time and effort.
17:07 UPDATE. I just noticed an error in my PDF for Ellen. I think a 'cut and paste' went wrong. The POSSIBLE marriage, no date, no location, no citation, to Alexander McCulloch is recorded here, undated:
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/M14Z-RZW
Martin
-
Apologies for not replying sooner, but I'm sure you realise that there were a lot of free offers available this weekend, keeping me busy.
Risinish, The Barbara Laird McLaren is VERY interesting, as it explains the news article reporting the death of Ellen's husband John McLaren, mentioning two children at home. I can't see any further trace of BLM, but Barbara was Ellen's mother's name. I wonder what happened to little Babs by 1891? Any ideas are welcome.
Mckha, I have found James Laird McLaren now, in 1901, 1911, Marrying in 1922, in North End Road Fulham in 1924 and dead in 1929.
I've mentioned elsewhere here that the 1891 Census Alexander Road, Ealing, lists Ellen's mother Barbara (Nee Lawson) mistakenly as 'Rebecca' while being married to Captain Laird. Also listed are their son together, Alfred, as well as James Laird McLaren, grandson (Ellen's son), while Ellen and James Dorward are a few hundred yards up the road in Felix Road, Ealing.
You have both helped so much.
I am still puzzled by this possible erroneous link on FamilySearch.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/M14Z-RZW
Martin
-
I suppose they mean this one
MCCULLOCH
ALEXANDER
LAWSON
HELEN
1873
693/ 12
Liberton (Midlothian)
-
Possible death?
MCLAREN
BARBARA LAIRD
86
1971
387/ 249
Perth
-
Mckha, What do you think about the Lawson/McCulloch marriage possibility? I found several possible dead McCullochs, but I admit to struggling with Scottish family research.
If this is the right pair, I wonder what happened to the son Robert, mentioned on FS.
I think Barbara in Perth in 1971 is quite possible. Unmarried. Where do you find this information? I only know of Scotlandspeople.
Martin
-
I’ve got to go to work now, so will look harder tonight, but
Can you see Alexander/Helen in 1881 that would rule them out.
Midlothian is a bit out of area but then, so is London!, I think only way to be sure is going to be to bite the bullet and buy the marriage cert. at least it’s a Scotland’s people one, so not outrageous.
And... Scotland’s People is where I found them :) Using the Advanced Search facilty
Barbara came up in the basic search. BUT There is another Barbara Laird McLaren who died in kelvin grove, 1952 age 75 >:(
-
MCLAREN BARBARA LAIRD 1884
387/ 401 Perth
Possible (agree with Mckha)?
MCLAREN LAIRD 86 (b c1885) i.e. a good fit for YoB & PoB
1971
387/ 249 Perth
Matching Ref. for surname Brown i.e. married...
Marriage;
MCLAREN BARBARA & BROWN THOMAS 1911
387/ 207 Perth
Downloadable to view for parentage!
Annie
-
I am still puzzled by this possible erroneous link on FamilySearch.
https://www.familysearch.org/tree/pedigree/landscape/M14Z-RZW
Martin, this is on a par with the usual online trees i.e. info. as good as the researcher/research & sources (which seem as usual to be non-existant) i.e. I would concentrate on what you 'know' for now from your own research! :D
Annie
-
I've been having another look at all this. In 1901, at 37 Swanscombe Street, Chiswick, Ellen McLaren is listed as age 47, but I think if this is her, she was telling porkies as she would have been 50. The age for James McLaren fits.
Martin