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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: Fraser178 on Sunday 11 November 18 10:42 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I've been searching for a family member (Andrew Fraser b. circa 1810) of mine for around 10 years or so now to no avail.
Yesterday I made the journey to his supposed birth place (Manchester) and searched through almost every parish in central manchester between 1807-1813 and found nothing.
Sources for his birth are 1851 Census (manchester), 1841 census he lives in cheshire with birthplace as out of county and his re-enlistment in the police he said he was from manchester.
Now I think the police one is the most relevant as it also features a description of him so we can probably assume that it was from his own mouth. But every birth source also gives different ages (1810, 1808, 1809 respectively).
He was married at St Marys parsonage, Manchester in 1829 and was working as a policeman by 1832 (newspaper articles) and then listed in 1836 trade directory as a police officer in Cupids Alley, Manchester.
He was also a trained Coach maker, so he must of been trained in that in the 1820s.
So this would seem to all to link him to Manchester? Have any of you had experiences with people not knowing/giving wrong birthplaces? should I be looking further afield?
I am struggling to envision how he could be wrong about this considering the sources available.
Any insight into similar situations would be appreciated,
Joel
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Did he have siblings and have you found their baptisms?
He could well have been born outside Manchester but moved into the city when very young and that is the only place he remembers so assumed he was born there.
Also it may not be him giving the info in the census return.
He could also not have been recorded, hence look at siblings.
Sorry nothing concrete to assist with.
Pheno
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I have nothing linking him to any possible siblings Im afraid.
I did look for any Frasers yesterday aswell as Andrew in that sort of time frame but nothing came up.
Thanks for the suggestion though!
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There's a tree on Ancestry that records his parents as Alexander and Jane Frazer, and also a sister Jane. It's not clear what the evidence is but it might be worth contacting the tree owner.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/105658992/person/240046110813/facts
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I'll double check the link when i get in but I believe thats my old tree when I thought that was the case but there wasnt enough evidence!
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Other Marriages around the same time as Andrews, St Mary Parsonage, Manchester
ISABELLA Frazer to William ROYLE 30 Aug 1831
JANE Frazer to Robert GRAINGER 30 Aug 1831
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My Manchester born Wife and I have been researching her very extensive Manchester roots for years.
Alas there are gaps that we have found in the available records.
The OPC records have been the best overall and in particular since the way St Marys baptised and married in bulk for the cheapest cost, their records can have very many people with the same name showing and hence can be difficult to narrow down the person concerned.
Btw, St Marys is now the Cathedral.
Even if you did find a birth record you probably could not accept it as being accurate without finding other supportive records.
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Interesting! If i recall Andrew and Jane are buried in the same Wesleyan Cemetery?
I will double check.
There are many gaps in the online records but theres much fewer in the ones at the Central library I believe.
The surname wasnt very common in Manchester at the time nor was his forename it has been a case of simply not being able to find any possible birth let alone having to narrow it down! its been a bit of a nightmare
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quick note, he did name two of his children Jane and Isabella as well.
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We did find that looking at the actual burial records yielded some interesting results but this was in Bradford so it may be worthwhile you checking the cemetary records if you have not already done so.
My Wife and I’s Wesleyan roots in part of our families have been problematic so you are not alone and if the parents of the family member were Wesleyan themselves the St Mary’s records for him may well not be correct but his children may well change their faith. Remember St Mary’s married couples cheaply and hence were very popular even if the core beliefs were not CofE
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Just listing those as may be siblings;
JANE Grainger was buried 8 May 1836 age 25
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Remember St Mary’s married couples cheaply and hence were very popular even if the core beliefs were not CofE
Remember that until 1837 marriages could only take place in Anglican churches, by Anglican ministers. So non-conformists had no choice in the matter.
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Remember St Mary’s married couples cheaply and hence were very popular even if the core beliefs were not CofE
Remember that until 1837 marriages could only take place in Anglican churches, by Anglican ministers. So non-conformists had no choice in the matter.
Thanks to both of you guys for this, I never thought of it before! This could well mean that he was indeed a Wesleyan and that is where I need to be looking for.
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Just listing those as may be siblings;
JANE Grainger was buried 8 May 1836 age 25
Thanks again Trish, I believe that either Isabella's or Jane's burial says they were the daughter of Alexander and Jane Frazer.
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burial of Andrew Fraser, policeman, 5 Aug 1853 at Great Bridgwater Street Wesleyan, Manchester. He died of consumption aged 44 on 31 July 1853 according to the register. Address looks like 10 Thursday St, Oldham Road.
In case you don't have this, it can be accessed via the non-conformist and non-parochial registers on Ancestry.
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burial of Andrew Fraser, policeman, 5 Aug 1853 at Great Bridgwater Street Wesleyan, Manchester. He died of consumption aged 44 on 31 July 1853 according to the register. Address looks like 10 Thursday St, Oldham Road.
In case you don't have this, it can be accessed via the non-conformist and non-parochial registers on Ancestry.
Cheers, I think I have that burial somewhere. Recently purchased his death record and it didnt say much else except that he died on Thompson street.
So it appears he may not have lied about his birthplace, I've just been looking in the wrong place.
Both this Jane and Isabella were buried at Wesleyan, as well as an Alexander Hagert Fraser who was around 20 years older.
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there's also a part of the register that looks to be a record of who is in which grave. NO. 185 has
Jane Frazer 1837
Isabella Royle 5 Feb 1837
Wilson Royle 9 March 1837
Wm Royle 31 Dec 1837
Mary Ann Blackstock (?) 2 July 1846
Andrew Fraser 5 Aug 1853
So it looks like he could well be related to Isabella.
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You have made my day with that find, thank you very much!!
Perhaps Mary Ann is another sister? Andrew did name another daughter Marianne/Mary Ann.
Being buried in the same grave plot is the first actual connection I've made between them.
Jane's only son, Robert Grainger was registered at the Wesleyan Church and this record gives Jane's parents as Alexander and Jane Fraser.
You may have actually helped me make some progress for the first time in a very long time.
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Just checked the burials and it was Isabella's husband William that was buried 9 March 1837. He died of fever a few weeks after her death in childbirth. Their son William was the one buried 31 Dec 1837.
The Mary Ann Blackstock buried in 1846 was the daughter of John, coachmaker & Ann, she was 7 months and cause of death noted as decline.
Glad I could help.
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Interesting! Andrew was also trained as a Coachmaker so there may be some form of a connection there as well.
Not too sure if the Alexander Fraser buried in the same Wesleyan graveyard is the same Alexander that was said to be Jane's Father but I think it would be a reasonable assumption to make.
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there's also a part of the register that looks to be a record of who is in which grave. NO. 185 has
Jane Frazer 1837
Isabella Royle 5 Feb 1837
Wilson Royle 9 March 1837
Wm Royle 31 Dec 1837
Mary Ann Blackstock (?) 2 July 1846
Andrew Fraser 5 Aug 1853
So it looks like he could well be related to Isabella.
Where did you find this one by the way? Just so I can have a look myself
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it's in the "All England & Wales, Non-Conformist & Non-Parochial Registers" on Ancestry.
I'm not sure about the Blackstock, starts Black at any rate.
:-\
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Ahhh thanks again just seen the register of them all being in the same grave.
Not sure who Jane Frazer is as it only shows her death year of 1837 and residence at Clarendon street. I shall have to see if she fits in anywhere!
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I don't think the Blackstocks are related. I found them on the 1841 census, John a coachmaker. Ann died before the 1851 census but John & children are in Hulme and the GRO site has mother's maiden name as Codd on the birth regs.
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another twist in the tale here, John Blackstock was the witness at both Isabella and Jane's weddings.
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1851 & 1861 John Blackstock's place of birth is given as Great Salkeld, Cumberland. 1861 has a son called Alfred aged 11 who isn't with the family in 1851. He is with family in Great Salkeld though. HO107/2426 folio 332 pg 17.
Perhaps Andrew had worked with him?
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Nice work there, I'd say thats a fair assessment really. He could of trained with Andrew and became a friend of the family and stepped in when they needed a witness for the marriage.
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Not sure who Jane Frazer is as it only shows her death year of 1837 and residence at Clarendon street.
The way I read it, Jane Frazer was the owner of the grave and purchased it in 1837, but the first burial there was Isabella Royle. I don't see a burial for Jane Frazer.
Compare Isaac Ainsworth's entry on the opposite page. His grave was purchased in 1837 but he wasn't buried until 1839.
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Not sure who Jane Frazer is as it only shows her death year of 1837 and residence at Clarendon street.
The way I read it, Jane Frazer was the owner of the grave and purchased it in 1837, but the first burial there was Isabella Royle. I don't see a burial for Jane Frazer.
Compare Isaac Ainsworth's entry on the opposite page. His grave was purchased in 1837 but he wasn't buried until 1839.
I see, that is a good spot. It would also explain why 'Public Grave' is in the same spot for some entries.
Perhaps Jane Frazer is the same Jane who appears to be the Mother and when she died its possible that someone was unaware of this plot and hence she wasnt buried there.
Her only (seemingly) surviving child, Andrew was absent from Manchester 1836-1843 (roughly) so maybe no one was there to say where she should be buried.
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I think Jane Frazer/Fraser may have outlived Andrew.
The Manchester Courier of 20 December 1856 has an announcement of the marriage of "Mr. Thomas Haffenden, of Gabriels-hill, Maidstone, to Hannah, youngest daughter of Mrs. Jane Fraser, of this city".
The marriage record (St Saviour, Chorlton-cum-Hardy) shows that Hannah was 34 (so born circa 1822 if that age is correct), and that her father was Alexander Fraser, mechanic. The witnesses were Henry and Jane Royle.
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You are an absolute star ;D
Ill see if I can find the death of Jane!
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Possible baptism for Hannah in 1818 (born 5/10/1817) at Great George Street Independent Chapel in Liverpool. Parents Alexander Frazer, a labourer, and Jane nee Kelso.
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Will have a closer look at that one.
There is a Jane Fraser born 1788 in Dumfries in the 1851 census living on Clarence Street Manchester. Which would mean it is possible that she was the mother of these Frasers.
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Mother Jane is with Hannah Haffenden in North Meols in 1861.
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Possible baptism for Hannah in 1818 (born 5/10/1817) at Great George Street Independent Chapel in Liverpool. Parents Alexander Frazer, a labourer, and Jane nee Kelso.
I think this is spot on, just found Hannah Haffenden in the 1861 census (born 1823 in Liverpool) with mother Jane Frayer (Fraser misspelling). She married and became Hannah Nuttall, with a possible death record match giving her birthdate as 1820.
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Mother Jane is with Hannah Haffenden in North Meols in 1861.
I see you just about beat me to this. Will see if any other births match up with the siblings in the wider area.
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1841 census Haywood St, Hulme HO107/583/9 folio 5 pg 2
Jane Frazer 50 b. Ireland
Mary Frazer 20 cotton reeler
Henry Royle 9
Jane Royle 6
Mary & the Royles born in Lancashire
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1841 census Haywood St, Hulme HO107/583/9 folio 5 pg 2
Jane Frazer 50 b. Ireland
Mary Frazer 20 cotton reeler
Henry Royle 9
Jane Royle 6
Mary & the Royles born in Lancashire
Jane does seem to be Scottish (1851 and 1861 census'), perhaps it was a error on the 1841 census?
Jane Frazer died in 1864 aged 78 and is buried alongside her grandaughter Jane Royle who died in 1861.
So it seem's that we have another Frazer in Mary?
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Just realised that the Alexander H Fraser whom was buried in 1836 at the Bridgwater Street chapel was just before Jane purchased the grave plot hence why he was not buried with the other Frasers.
Just trying to trace him now.
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Just realised that the Alexander H Fraser whom was buried in 1836 at the Bridgwater Street chapel was just before Jane purchased the grave plot hence why he was not buried with the other Frasers
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Not sure about that ! Isabella Royle was buried on 1 Feb 1837 in Jane Frazer's plot. Alexander Hagert Fraser was buried 3 days later in a public grave.
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Just realised that the Alexander H Fraser whom was buried in 1836 at the Bridgwater Street chapel was just before Jane purchased the grave plot hence why he was not buried with the other Frasers
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Not sure about that ! Isabella Royle was buried on 1 Feb 1837 in Jane Frazer's plot. Alexander Hagert Fraser was buried 3 days later in a public grave.
I see! thats my bad I must of misread the dates.
Looks like it must be another Alexander!
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William Royle left a will:
20th April 1837 ...will of William Royle late of Clarendon Street Chorlton upon Medlock in the County of Lancaster Baker and Shopkeeper deceased was proved and Admon Granted unto Jane Fraser the Sole Exor.
William
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William Royle left a will:
20th April 1837 ...will of William Royle late of Clarendon Street Chorlton upon Medlock in the County of Lancaster Baker and Shopkeeper deceased was proved and Admon Granted unto Jane Fraser the Sole Exor.
Short and sweet
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6PF3-HNJ?i=31&cat=126866
The Testator died the Fourth day of March 1837
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possible for Hannah in 1851 has another sister
89 Reather Street, St Georges, Manchester HO107/2230 folio 10 pg 12
Ann Frazer head 28 silk winder
Eliza sister 23 silk winder
both born Manchester
Looks like the transcribers don't cope with the z with a tail and think it's a g, so Frazer becomes Frager.
1841 place of birth choice was in county, Ireland, Scotland or Foreign Parts so the Ireland could be an error.
:-\
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Think you can rule that one out, Osprey - Eliza married 1 May 1851 - address given as 89 Reather Street with father named as Joseph Frazer, shoemaker.
William
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William Royle left a will:
20th April 1837 ...will of William Royle late of Clarendon Street Chorlton upon Medlock in the County of Lancaster Baker and Shopkeeper deceased was proved and Admon Granted unto Jane Fraser the Sole Exor.
Short and sweet
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6PF3-HNJ?i=31&cat=126866
The Testator died the Fourth day of March 1837
Another amazing find there, I've never had too much experience with Wills in my research before. It would explain why Jane could look after herself for another 20 odd years despite being widowed.
possible for Hannah in 1851 has another sister
89 Reather Street, St Georges, Manchester HO107/2230 folio 10 pg 12
Ann Frazer head 28 silk winder
Eliza sister 23 silk winder
both born Manchester
Looks like the transcribers don't cope with the z with a tail and think it's a g, so Frazer becomes Frager.
1841 place of birth choice was in county, Ireland, Scotland or Foreign Parts so the Ireland could be an error.
:-\
Andrew did also name one of his daughters Elizabeth/Eliza so that could also fit well with being his sisters name (Jane, Isabella, Mary Hannah/Marianne/Mary Ann and Elizabeth all being Andrews daughters would match exactly with all these siblings).
Although this does leave odd jumps between Jane Frazer's children; Isabella (1807), Andrew (1809), Jane (1811), Hannah (1822ish), Eliza (1828). I Imagine theres more just haven't come across them yet.
You're right there, Fraser has to be one of the worst names I've seen transcribed. Fraser, Frazier, Frazer, Frasier, Frayer, Frager, Freyser etc!
I did have a look at the 1841 input and it looks more like an 'S' to me so that could be the case.
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Think you can rule that one out, Osprey - Eliza married 1 May 1851 - address given as 89 Reather Street with father named as Joseph Frazer, shoemaker.
William
That would make some sense as Jane would of been getting on a bit to have another child by 1828!
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There were two aspects here. I've noticed it in my researches. One was changes in districts in the Census returns, the other, although isolated was deliberate, some people resented intrusion into their privacy. I have a perfect example in my wider family. If I can find it, I'll post it. Long liver, birth places all different.
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There were two aspects here. I've noticed it in my researches. One was changes in districts in the Census returns, the other, although isolated was deliberate, some people resented intrusion into their privacy. I have a perfect example in my wider family. If I can find it, I'll post it. Long liver, birth places all different.
Thanks, I look forward to having a look at it. I suppose it also depends who answers the census really, his wife could of filled in the census and simply thought he was born in Manchester when that could simply be false.
I have just found the marriage record of Robert Grainger (Jane Frazer's son, the sibling who wasn't buried in the family plot) and one of the Witness is a Royle (cant see the forename). But it appears the Royles are every where!
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Lots of progress made whilst I slept and then went to work :)
Looks to me that siblings married siblings;
23 Dec 1846 St John the Evangelist, Blackpool, Lancashire
James Haffenden - of full age, Butler, Bachelor, Blackpool
Mary Ann Fraser - of full age, Spinster, Blackpool
Groom's Father: William Haffenden, Gardener
Bride's Father: Alexander Fraser, Mechanic
Witness: J. Fraser; Hannah Fraser
Sorry it this has already been found.
Another possible child and witness to above Marriage?
19 Nov 1837 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Fraser - Full age, Stone Mason, Bachelor, Norfolk St
Janet Dow - (X), Full age, Widow, Norfolk St
Groom's Father: Alexander Fraser, Labourer
Bride's Father: John Smart, Stone Mason
2 Baptisms St Peter, Liverpool;
ALEXANDER Fraser 25 Apr 1838
JOHN JAMES Frazer 21 Jul 1840
Parents JOHN/JANE, John a Stone Mason
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Lots of progress made whilst I slept and then went to work :)
Looks to me that siblings married siblings;
23 Dec 1846 St John the Evangelist, Blackpool, Lancashire
James Haffenden - of full age, Butler, Bachelor, Blackpool
Mary Ann Fraser - of full age, Spinster, Blackpool
Groom's Father: William Haffenden, Gardener
Bride's Father: Alexander Fraser, Mechanic
Witness: J. Fraser; Hannah Fraser
Sorry it this has already been found.
Fantastic! This is new information aswell.
So thats Isabella, Andrew, Jane, Mary Ann and Hannah!
Cant seem to find any trace of Alexander at all though, interesting to see that some of them left Manchester aswell.
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Go back and read my last posting as I just added extra info you may have not seen :)
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1851 Census
Toxteth Parks, Lancs
John Dow, 27, Head, Mar, Forge Labourer, born Scotland
Mary Ann Dow, 26, Wife, Mar, born Toxteth Park
John Dow, 4, Son
Jane Dow, 1, Daug
Alice Gray, 36, Mother in Law, Widow
Alexander FRASER, 13, Brother, Errand Boy, born Toxteth Park******
So it appears John Dow must be the Son of Jane Dow, Widow, who married John Frazer 1837.
Johns Marriage to Mary Ann Gray has his Father as Charles.
1841 Census the Family seems to be under Dow;
Jane Dow 40 Charwoman, born Scotland
John Dow 15 Labourer, born Scotland
Charles Dow 10
Jane Dow 7
Alexander Dow 3****
Last 3 all born in County*
1861 Alexander is a Nephew of Barbara Smart;
Barbara Smart
James H Smart
George Smart
Agnes Smart
Margaret Smart
John Smart
Alexander Fraser, 23, born Liverpool, Lancashire
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14 Apr 1865 St Michael in the Hamlet, Aigburth, Lancashire
Alexander Frazer - 27, Hammersmith, Bachelor, Mann St
Margaret White - 20, Spinster, Mann St
Father: John Frazer, Stone Mason
Father: John White, Fireman
Witnesses: William Wood; Mary Wood
Off to bed again :)
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Lots of progress made whilst I slept and then went to work :)
Looks to me that siblings married siblings;
23 Dec 1846 St John the Evangelist, Blackpool, Lancashire
James Haffenden - of full age, Butler, Bachelor, Blackpool
Mary Ann Fraser - of full age, Spinster, Blackpool
Groom's Father: William Haffenden, Gardener
Bride's Father: Alexander Fraser, Mechanic
Witness: J. Fraser; Hannah Fraser
Sorry it this has already been found.
Another possible child and witness to above Marriage?
19 Nov 1837 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Fraser - Full age, Stone Mason, Bachelor, Norfolk St
Janet Dow - (X), Full age, Widow, Norfolk St
Groom's Father: Alexander Fraser, Labourer
Bride's Father: John Smart, Stone Mason
2 Baptisms St Peter, Liverpool;
ALEXANDER Fraser 25 Apr 1838
JOHN JAMES Frazer 21 Jul 1840
Parents JOHN/JANE, John a Stone Mason
John could be a possible child, as he would have the same birthplace as Hannah. Is it possible that the J.Fraser is Jane Fraser though?
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Yes J Fraser may be Jane Fraser
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Yes J Fraser may be Jane Fraser
Big thanks for all your help with this Trish by the way and everyone else who've helped me, 10 years and finally made some leeway with Andrew!
Now I just have to figure out why I cant find his baptism!
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Now I just have to figure out why I cant find his baptism!
I think the only one of Alexander and Jane's children for which we have a baptism record is Hannah (1818) who was born in Liverpool in 1817. So we are missing:
Isabella circa 1807
Andrew circa 1809 Manchester
Jane circa 1811
Mary Ann circa 1816 Liverpool (we know she was older than Hannah because Hannah was stated to be the youngest in her marriage announcement)
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Now I just have to figure out why I cant find his baptism!
I think the only one of Alexander and Jane's children for which we have a baptism record is Hannah (1818) who was born in Liverpool in 1817. So we are missing:
Isabella circa 1807
Andrew circa 1809 Manchester
Jane circa 1811
Mary Ann circa 1816 Liverpool (we know she was older than Hannah because Hannah was stated to be the youngest in her marriage announcement)
Yeah thats all correct. Considering Janes (the mother) age it would be reasonable that Isabella is the eldest child.
It does appear that we are looking at a non-conformist family from the burials and Hannahs baptism in liverpool in 1818.
Hannahs baptism gives the mom as Jane Kelso, which i cant find on any births matching the information I have which probably also means that she was born non-conformist as well.
Perhaps Alexanders job meant they were moving around the Northwest for work hence the mixed birth places?
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I see that Mary Ann Haffenden (nee Fraser) has an obituary for her death in 1881, could one of you pull it up? I can't get it to load for some reason.
I've just seen that Jane Frasers (Andrews supposed sister) son Robert Grainger is living with Mary Ann Haffenden in 1861! Another concrete link between Mary Ann/Hannah (the Liverpool children) to Andrew/Jane/Isabella (the possible manchester ones).
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I see that Mary Ann Haffenden (nee Fraser) has an obituary for her death in 1881, could one of you pull it up? I can't get it to load for some reason.
Can't see one - what paper? what date?
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I see that Mary Ann Haffenden (nee Fraser) has an obituary for her death in 1881, could one of you pull it up? I can't get it to load for some reason.
Can't see one - what paper? what date?
31st July 1881 in the manchester courier, I had to search 'Mary Ann' as haffenden is a nightmare for the software to transcribe. No worries if you cant find it, I imagine it won't tell us much.
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Stumbled across this whilst searching. I would say its a mis-transcribed record but this is actually in the northamptonshire non-conformist collection and claims that Hannah was born in northampton but baptised in Liverpool.
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That's clearly a mistranscription by somebody!
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In case you still don't have this:
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Thanks for that Shaun.
Just found the second marriage of Hannah Fraser (the youngest) in 1865 with her married name of Hannah Haffenden (marrying John Nuttall) where she gives her Fathers occupation as 'Farmer'. So we have Alexander Fraser as a Labourer, Mechanic and Farmer.