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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: J.R.Ellam on Monday 12 November 18 08:03 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I was thinking about all the wonderful events that went into commemorating this year's Armistice when a thought came to me! are we commemorating the right time.
We know that the ceasefire started on the 11 hour of the 11 day of the 11 month but which time zone did they use.
France and Belgium are 1 hour in front of England. So, if it was the French time zone the time of the Armistice would have been 10 o'clock in England so shouldn't we have commemorated the event then. Or if it was the English time zone and with the War being in France & Belgium shouldn't the time of the Armistice be 12 o'clock not 11.
John
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France and Belgium are 1 hour in front of England.
But were they 1 hour in front of the UK in 1911?
Regards
Chas
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Evening Herald Nov 11 1918
Foch's Message
Wireless news transmitted through the wireless stations of French Government.
From Marshal Foch to Commander in Chief
Hostilities will cease on the whole front as of November 11 at 11 o'clock (French time).
I don't know if the French time was added by the newspaper but it looks like there was a time difference.
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Hi,
1884 the time zone was introduced around the word, the 24 hours clock, GMT + hour etc.
The UK summertime was introduced in 1915, during the war.
Maggsie
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Hi,
1884 the time zone was introduced around the word, the 24 hours clock, GMT + hour etc.
The UK summertime was introduced in 1915, during the war.
Maggsie
Yes, but it was November.
Regards
Chas
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Even Australia use 11.00 am
Maggsie
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Even Australia use 11.00 am
Maggsie
I think that is the situation - it is 11.00 am local time.
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There are two questions here.
1) in 1918 there was fighting taking place in Europe, in particular France/Belgium, the negotiations took place there, it was quite clear that it was 1100 local time.
2) Each year since, we have marked the occasion by falling silent at 11:00 "our time" wherever that is. And from I think 1946 or so, the tradition of Remembrance Sunday took over from always marking the occasion on the 11th itself. This year, the 11th happens to fall on a Sunday so that issue doesn't arise.
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The important thing is to remember not the time.
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I went to a village memorial yesterday to see my grandson march with his cadets, it was very moving, the Vicar who took the service spoke about RESPECT, and that is what it is all about, pity more people don't feel the same nowadays
It was also very enlightening to see so many young cadets and young people there, soon thee will be no one around to talk about it, I hope it has been written down for families to keep for the future
Louisa Maud
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Yes I agree we should remember.
We also should look after all those who return wounded in any war.
Maggsie
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I've noticed many more young children are aware of Remembrance Day now. I didn't know about it until I joined the Brownies and we had to march with other Brownies and Guides (as we did on Founders Day - Baden Powell's birthday?), however, my 7 year old granddaughter knows all about it and why it's held etc. she'd learned about it in class. Older children learn about it in modern history.
I don't know about the rest of you but I think History should be taught going backwards - ie from modern history to ancient history and not the other way round. When I was at school we never seemed to get past the Roman invasion in 1066, each year we started with the ancient Britons and ended with 1066. Now young people know much more about modern history which can only be a good thing.
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When I was at school history ended in 1910.
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Another thing I noticed was half of the children didn't know the Lords prayer, shame on them but I do realise that they don't teach religion nowadays
Louisa Maud
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The important thing is to remember not the time.
This is what occurred to me as I was typing my answer about 11:00 and time zones.
Some years ago the Royal British Legion did an advertising campaign which included the "11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month" quotation. I thought it looked as if we were being invited to celebrate an anomaly in the calendar, rather than the actual reason we remember on this day. Fortunately they don't seem to have repeated that one.
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I don't know about the rest of you but I think History should be taught going backwards - ie from modern history to ancient history and not the other way round. When I was at school we never seemed to get past the Roman invasion in 1066, each year we started with the ancient Britons and ended with 1066. Now young people know much more about modern history which can only be a good thing.
The Romans had left Britain long before 1066 when the Normans arrived. Only 1 letter different. :)
History was events which happened more than 100 years previously according to my school history curriculum. WW1 was what Grandad did and what my mother, dad and uncles, children at the time, occasionally talked about.
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oops, sorry senior moment. I meant the Norman invasion in 1066. :-[
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Hi
Thank you for comments and sorry about the delay in responding but called into work.
We rightly remember all those brave people who gave there all keeping this country safe on 11 hour of the 11 day of the 11 month.
But this year they have been building up to commemorate the centenary of the Armistice which came into effect on the 11 hour of the 11 day of the 11 month. With this taking effect in France and the time zone being the English Chanel the Armistice should have been commemorated at 10 o'clock not 11.
Maggsie you are right, we should never forget all those who survived and came back and tried to pick up the pieces and live their lives again. On researching the absent voters it does not tell you how many were wounded but knowing the area I have noticed several that died in the local hospital for people with mental problems.
John
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Yes, it would have been 10 o'clock here at the time. But it is the actual event that we commemorate, which happened in a particular place at 11 o' clock. After that moment in history it doesn't really matter when we commemorate it, it can only always be 11 o'clock. After all, most years Remembrance Day doesn't fall on the 11th day, yet we have a 2 minute's silence, the same at the Festival of Remembrance in the evening.
I think I'm labouring my point somewhat, sorry :-[! The time difference wouldn't have made much difference to my 2 relatives killed, my Grandad longing to get home, or my Dad's uncle who was gassed, and shot and blinded himself when he got home.
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While all this remembering is going on, don't forget who is supplying the bombs which are wiping the people of the Yemen off the face of the earth!!
Skoosh.
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True, Bae are one of the prime suppliers of armaments to Saudi-Arabia, although probably planes rather than bombs, I don't know. Then there's Blair who took us into the Iraq war and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.
Same old, same old, nothing changes.
I'm not a pacifist, I don't condemn our governments in any way, and remember, Britain was the original evil empire. It's just the way it was and is.
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I've noticed many more young children are aware of Remembrance Day now. I didn't know about it until I joined the Brownies and we had to march with other Brownies and Guides (as we did on Founders Day - Baden Powell's birthday?), however, my 7 year old granddaughter knows all about it and why it's held etc. she'd learned about it in class. Older children learn about it in modern history.
I don't know about the rest of you but I think History should be taught going backwards - ie from modern history to ancient history and not the other way round. When I was at school we never seemed to get past the Roman invasion in 1066, each year we started with the ancient Britons and ended with 1066. Now young people know much more about modern history which can only be a good thing.
Last year we were in Australia at the time of their ANZAC Day Parades in April. It was quite moving to see young folk proudly taking part in the parade in the little NSW town of Wolumla, many of them wearing medals of their fathers or grandfathers.
There seems to be a growing awareness of the sacrifices made by people of every nation amongst the younger generation.
On a slightly different perspective, on Sunday my OH was taking the Remembrance Day Service at a local Methodist Church. During the course of this she showed her dad's campaign medals for WW2 which included the Atlantic Star. He had been torpedoed and survived and then subsequently invalided home after being taken ill whilst serving on a refridge meat ship in South America.
After the service one of the church members came up and showed us one of his father's mementoes from the first war. It was a serviceman's Pocket Methodist Hymn Book with various annotations by his dad at certain points in his service in the trenches including a note regarding the Armistice. He was gassed and sent home but returned again to France. He subsequently became a Methodist Minister. At the time of his application to become ordained there was some doubt by the hierarchy of his medical suitability to serve a full stint. He lived until he was 100!
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I think schools have been making a special effort to discuss WW1 with their children, maybe by design or maybe because they have been instructed to do so because of the centenary. My grandchildren, aged 7 and nearly 5 years old have been talking quite a lot about it and were very interested to hear that my father had been a soldier, albeit in WW2. "Did he die?" asked the younger one quite matter-of-factly. I think perhaps the emphasis in her lessons may have been on the huge number of deaths in WW1.
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Diamonds, uranium oxide, gold, natural gas,
tin, lithium, lead, cadmium, zinc, copper, tungsten and silver. German South West Africa. (Namibia).
Germany lost all of its Colonies at the end of the war. The Kaiser lost his throne. The world lost millions of people. Goodness knows why Holland gave him sanctuary!
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... Britain was the original evil empire ...
Bit controversial :o I would have thought there were plenty of stronger contenders for that title over the last few thousand years, sadly :'(
It seems to be a continuing weakness of the human condition that people are only too ready to savagely attack each other at the drop of a hat. In this centenary year, all over Europe now people seem to be trying to lay the foundations for a resurgance of nationalism despite all the tragic history associated with it. We can only hope sanity retains the upper hand . . .
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When I was taught history at school we did history of the school, the town, the county, the country and then World history.
As to understanding Remembrance day both my daughters have an idea with the younger one only very basic idea at the moment which I feel is understandable due to her age. I know many of my older (teenage) daughter's friends have a good understanding. Having said that I overheard a bunch of teenagers (slightly older than mine) say things that revealed they had zero understanding and zero respect. A few days later I am still kicking myself for not challenging them.
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Mike 175, one needs to have a broad knowledge of history. England/Britain was an agressor nation until WWI. Nothing controversial, just a matter of fact. First stage was 'get the French'. Ever heard of Agincourt 1415? The Royal Coat of Arms was quartered red and blue, the three English gold lions on a red background and the French gold fleur de lys on a blue background. We won, but luckily Henry V died young because we could not have dominated France and the opposite would have probably happened, as pointed out by Max Hastings recently.
England was on the up again in Tudor times, Europe certainly took us very seriously indeed. Then came the dross of the Stuarts. Once they were gone, 1694, formation of the Bank of England and the National debt. The main reason for the latter was to attract investment of cash for which annual interest was paid to pay for a vast increase in the strength of the Royal Navy to project commerce and power across the World.
Marlborough's Wars to get at the French again 1702 to 1714, The War of Austrian Succession 1741 to 1748 against the French and Spanish, and the main attack for World power, the Seven Years war, 1756 to 1763. Britain and Prussia versus the rest. 1759, the year of victories, Canada and India.
It went on until 1900 when the rot started. Are you aware of any of this?
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There were empires long before the British one and they had plenty of wars and did nasty things. I also question whether an empire can be labelled "evil". The Romans were cruel but they had their good points.
Re the war with France 1702-1714 - The Grand Alliance and War of Spanish Succession. Louis xivth was also an aggressor.
Europe has had a big war in the 2nd decade of each of the last 3 centuries.
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@ Regorian, where did you get the idea that "England Won!" the Hundred Years War? Shakespeare is not history. England was ignominiously defeated & booted out of most of France, the ill-fated Tudors saw England booted out of what was left! The fantasy of the fleur de lys continued on the English arms until George IV took a reality check.
Skoosh.
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England and France were traditionally enemies.
After the Franco Prussian war it was decided that a neutral zone between them should be created and that neutral zone be respected and if necessary defended.
The neutral zone was created by taking some of French Flanders and Dutch Flanders.
The state of Belgium was created.
When Germany violated that neutrality in 1914 England and France defended it and so WWI.began.
What was created to save war became the cause of the biggest conflict the world had ever seen .
What a tragedy.
We went to Belgium for November 11th,we got quite close to The Menin Gate,but as there was no
sound system we could hear nothing really.
The parade of contingencies from The Comonwealth and Britain were to parade to The Menin Gate,
we stood on Menin Street but were surprised to say the least that shops were open, cafes too and there was no Two Minutes silence as the parade had not ended by ten past eleven.
We waited for the poppies to fall from the roof of The Menin Gate, eventually they did about twenty past eleven ,for just a few seconds.
No one knew what exactly was going on,it was quite upsetting as we later learned the Belgian T.V had shown some wonderful material.
It was a great privilege to be there but I was expecting to be overcome by sadness ,instead it was anger I felt most strongly .
The whole thing seemed botched,and this was the view of many around us.
Parking was understandibly difficult and side roads and lanes,especially up to Passendale were choked with cars and coaches.
Perhaps a mini bus sefvice could have been organised .
People parking out of town and getting on a small bus to get to the pedestrianised area.
I am just about to search for any part of the service.
Viktoria.
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Viktoria, did you mean to begin with the sentence "Germany and France were traditionally enemies" rather than "England and France …"? We went back in time to earlier wars - sorry to have confused you.
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Mike 175, one needs to have a broad knowledge of history. England/Britain was an agressor nation until WWI. Nothing controversial, just a matter of fact. First stage was 'get the French'. Ever heard of Agincourt 1415? The Royal Coat of Arms was quartered red and blue, the three English gold lions on a red background and the French gold fleur de lys on a blue background. We won, but luckily Henry V died young because we could not have dominated France and the opposite would have probably happened, as pointed out by Max Hastings recently.
England was on the up again in Tudor times, Europe certainly took us very seriously indeed. Then came the dross of the Stuarts. Once they were gone, 1694, formation of the Bank of England and the National debt. The main reason for the latter was to attract investment of cash for which annual interest was paid to pay for a vast increase in the strength of the Royal Navy to project commerce and power across the World.
Marlborough's Wars to get at the French again 1702 to 1714, The War of Austrian Succession 1741 to 1748 against the French and Spanish, and the main attack for World power, the Seven Years war, 1756 to 1763. Britain and Prussia versus the rest. 1759, the year of victories, Canada and India.
It went on until 1900 when the rot started. Are you aware of any of this?
I was really taking a broader view of history. I'm well aware that England, subsequently Great Britain, built an empire over a period of several centuries, to the point where it controlled around a quarter of the World's people and lands, but it seems somewhat blinkered to single it out as the original "evil empire" just because it was the most successful at the time. Most of the larger nations of Europe and some of the smaller ones were competing, and fighting, with each other for trade and territory wherever they could find it, and trying to build empires.
In earlier times I believe the Romans might not have been entirely benign as they slaughtered their way across Europe, butchering or enslaving any opposition and wiping out around a third of the population of Gaul, for example. But that was alright because they were a great civilizing influence ::)
In no particular order, the Mongols had a bit of a reputation, as did the Greeks, the various Chinese dynasties, the Ottoman Turks ... the list is almost endless, and I seriously doubt if the British were even in the same league of evil as some of them :-\
We may have to agree to disagree, but that's OK with me :)
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Yes we all know about the rights and wrongs of the Empire but the Remembrance about those who believed in what they were told and followed the orders and never came back to the Country they loved. We should also reflect on those who did come back. The ones who had to live with what they saw, the ones who survived those horrible injuries and the ones that came back "not living but not dead" and lived the rest of their lives tucked away in some sort of Institution or Asylum.
I have been a couple of times to the Menin Gate and it's always been bad for parking but the remembrance service is usually very moving.
So back to the point and we can say that the ceremonies to commemorate the Armistice in this Country should have been held at 10 o'clock and not 11 o'clock because they forgot to factor in the time zone difference.
John
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Viktoria, did you mean to begin with the sentence "Germany and France were traditionally enemies" rather than "England and France …"? We went back in time to earlier wars - sorry to have confused you.
Well we were always at loggerheads with France because “English “kings were from France,William the Conqueror, The Plantagenets etc and sonEngland claimed their territories by right, Eleanor Of Aquitaine brought vast portions of France when she married Henry ll. Her son John lost most of those lands.
So it was strange we should ally with France against the Germans but we had both signed to protect Belgium’s neutrality so for the first time in a long time we and France were allies.
The German Royal family were cousins to ours of course,we have fought France many times as has been said .
It was thought a neutral zone between France and Germany would prevent another conflict like the recent(recent when Belgium was formed ) Franco Prussian war.Germany invaded Belgium on its way to invading France again
so as Britain was a guarantor of the neutrality of Belgium, this time we were with France.
What did I put! I had just got back from my son’s where the taxi took us all and he drove me home so I was shattered.
Should have checked before posting.
Thanks very much ,I ought to have waited until this morning but rushed in ::) ::)
Cheerio. Viktoria
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It's good to see I'm not the only one with some knowledge of wider history. The current mindset only dates from 1956, because we were weak, permanently. Some people realised in 1945, my mother commented many years ago 'that we had taken a step down' . Only two nations mattered, USA and Soviet Union. Now Russia is weak and China is challenging the US. China is the only Nation which has risen again that I can think of.
It's evident from some posts that there are still people who deny our decline and fall.
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Where I live now the council have been very pro-active with the 100 year anniversary. There were originally 13 of those silent soldiers, (see photo) in the area, but more and more people and organisations wanted to buy one, so we ended up with many more, including ones of nurses. They are by the side of the roads, on roundabouts, outside the community centre etc. They also had 3 parades on 11 November, one in the morning through town and then a service, one in the afternoon to a monument we have that remembers Indian soldiers who were in the town during WWI and then one in the evening before lighting of two beacons on the clifftop.
Despite all these reminders around the town, there is a letter in the local paper today to say that there were army cadets who were supposed to be selling poppies but were, in fact, lolling against a wall, drinking coke from cans and playing on their 'phones. So not all young people were as respectful as they might have been. I guess, following the letter, that the young cadets involved will be reprimanded by the cadet leader.
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In my local small shop area we had cadets collecting, one week Air cadets following week Army cadets, one of which was my lovely Grandson, we made a point of detouring to see him, he was supposed to be outside the one and only supermarket, well we found him inside sitting at a desk with more than just the poppy tin and poppies, after commenting on how lucky he was to be inside, a dry day I might add but chilly , he said they had taken it in turns to be inside, ordered by a senior, that at least gave them time to have a warm up, he didn't realise I was there initially, and when a person put money in the tin and I heard him say " have a nice day" I was so proud of him, I never saw any of them lolling about, they were in groups doing what they were meant to be doing.
The next day the cadets marched to the war memorial, one again all turned out smartly
So well done Corringham Town centre and the group who arranged the service at the Green in Stanford le Hope on Sunday packed by apparently 3,000 people
Louisa Maud
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So, in my community - on the 11th they held the usual Remembrance service at the local war memorial. Some of the trees nearby had been decorated with poppy sashes and the church across from the war memorial had a field of poppies etc. In the town centre, some organisation had paid for lamp post poppies which looked very nice. However, a couple of weeks before the 11th the actual state of the war memorial had been brought to my attention by someone. So, I wrote to my MP. The actual war memorial is in a dreadful state. It could do with a wash, the brass flower holders are corroded, the list of names (nearly 400 of them) could have done with a shine up with some Brasso, no bedding plants in the garden of remembrance, the notice board nearby with a list of names of the fallen contained a faded photo copy. Well, to me it really beggars belief. It's like why can't people spend their time and money caring for the existing monument rather than decorating everywhere with knitted poppies. Surely that should be the icing on the cake. No reply from MP by the way...and he was there. I think the war memorials fall under the care of the Parks Dept (not sure) and they have no budget anymore for anything. :-[
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Reply no 36, in the village named I do belive that the village has a group that look after the war memorial, it had been cleaned before Sunday's service
Louisa Maud
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We know that the ceasefire started on the 11 hour of the 11 day of the 11 month but which time zone did they use.
John
Regardless of timezone, I'm sure it's the significance of the Armistice signing being remembered globally for the 11th hour of 11th November.
Here in NZ the 11th would have been almost over, with the news coming through to the Prime Minister just before midnight and he officially announced it via a message "Armistice signed' to our country post and telegraph offices shortly before 9am on the 12th.
At the time NZ was in the midst of the 1918 Flu Pandemic ... October - December 1918 the peak ... so celebrations were delayed in some areas.
Generally ANZAC has taken the precedence over Armistice Day and wasn't celebrated as much until more recent years in NZ. I remember the very first time I observed the 2 minute silence on November 11 at 11 am, was in Australia about 25 years ago, I was in a department store in Sydney and everything stopped. Thankfully I did realise why but have never had that here, though I think more do now and certainly for the centenary more observed.