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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: sirsimon on Tuesday 13 November 18 20:50 GMT (UK)
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Hi guys,
Hope you are all well.
I would appreciate any thoughts on the information from this 1911 census entry.
A relative of mine, Joseph Steele was born in 1863 to Jonathan Steele and Elizabeth Kennedy. He was born in Carlisle, Cumberland, but went to Lancashire and married a Alice Thompson around 1891 and had children, Jonathan 1892, Bessie Alice 1893 and Ethel 1899. Jonathan was born in Cumberland, but the others were born in Lancashire.
Now on this census, it states Alice is married and is living with a Peter Walton. Interestingly Bessie and Alice are present, but Joseph is not, nor is Jonathan. It is possible he died, but I cannot find any corresponding death record.
Alice is also living with what are listed as illegitimate children, possibly born to Peter. My question is, what happened to Joseph and Jonathan and what are your thoughts on Alice having children with another man, but giving them all the name Steele, not Walton?
my thanks
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on the 1911 census there's a Jonathan Steele b c1892 in "Carligh, Cumberland" [as transcribed by Ancestry]. He's an able seaman based in Devonport.
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This chap appears to have DOB 29 Sep 1891 and often goes by the name John
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Now on this census, it states Alice is married and is living with a Peter Walton.
Living with in what sense? Is she down as his wife or a lodger or ?
Who are the illegitimate children - are there birth registrations for them.
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https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWB6-GVY
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Peter is listed as married, as is Alice. Peter is listed as 'In Charge'
The illegitimate children are;
Alice Steele 1904 Chorlton
Leonard Steele 1908 Chorlton
Edith Steele 1909 Chorlton
Ivy Walton Steele 1910 Chorlton
Apologies for not adding them earlier
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Alice is listed as housekeeper. Why do you think the illegitimate children are Mr Walton's?
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I assume its because at least one of the children has Walton in their name and the children are listed as illegitimate. I could be wrong though
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Have you investigated this Mr Walton, does he appear on earlier census with a wife of his own and/or children?
If one of the children does have Walton as a middle name then yes it's hard not to assume he was the father of that one at least :-\
Have you birth certificates for any of these children? If Mr Walton completed the census I don't know why he wouldn't pass them all off as a "normal" family ie with Alice as his wife and the children as "theirs"
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A relative of mine, Joseph Steele was born in 1863 to Jonathan Steele and Elizabeth Kennedy. He was born in Carlisle, Cumberland, but went to Lancashire and married a Alice Thompson around 1891 and had children, Jonathan 1892, Bessie Alice 1893 and Ethel 1899. Jonathan was born in Cumberland, but the others were born in Lancashire.
Married Jun qtr 1891 Salford, by the looks of it.
Children:
Jonathan Steele, mmn Thompson, Dec qtr 1891 Carlisle
Bessie Alice Steele, mmn Thompson, Dec qtr 1893 Lichfield
Arthur Steele, mmn Thompson, Jun qtr 1895 Carlisle (possibly)
Ethel Steele, mmn Thompson, Sep qtr 1899 Barton upon Irwell
Joseph Steele, mmn Thompson, Jun qtr 1901 Barton upon Irwell (possibly). Died same quarter
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Alice is listed as housekeeper. Why do you think the illegitimate children are Mr Walton's?
Thye are listed as illegitimate son and daughters of the head of household - so it seems a fair inference.
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Peter Walton, born 3 Apr 1859 at Bowden, Cheshire and baptised at Lymm (Primitive Methodist) had married Mary Ann Allen Hewitt at Bowden in 1879. She’s down as Margaret in 1901 but a match in every other way to his wife Mary A in 1881 & 1891 - b abt 1855 Dunham Massey, Cheshire - so likely an enumerator error.
They had lots of children but she was husbandless (still “married”) in the last census.
Her possible death as Mary A Walton is Mar qtr 1919 Barton upon Irwell.
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There is an anomaly related to the children, image not easy to read either:
Peter Walton - 12 years 5 total, 3 alive, 2 died
Alice Steele - 19, 10, 7, 3 12, 5, 7, 3
6 children individually named, all with surname Steele - the eldest two are said to be "daughters of Alice Steele by her husband". :-\
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I think they couldn’t decide whether to put Alice’s fertility numbers down as 10/7/3 (presumably her total children) or 5/3/2 (to match Peter’s).
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Birth registrations for the latter children:
Alice Steele, mmn Thompson, Mar qtr 1904 Chorlton
Peter Steele, mmn Thompson, Mar qtr 1905 Chorlton. Death reg as Peter Walton Steele, Sep qtr 1905
Leonard Steele, mmn Thompson, Jun qtr 1908 Chorlton
Edith Steele, mmn Thompson, Sep qtr 1909 Chorlton
Ivy Walton Steele, no mmn, Dec qtr 1910 Chorlton
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A later child: Peter Walton Steele, mmn Thompson, registered Mar qtr 1915 Chorlton.
Born 25 November 1914, died 21 February 1991 Salford.
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The numbers crossed out 19 10 7 3 seem to be correct if you count all the Steele children and Joseph and Alice did marry 19 years by 1911.
Perhaps by getting most of the certificates, this might clarify everything.
Alice seems to be alive in 1939, but widowed. She is living with Peter Walton Steele. I think he married Maude M Gearey
Son Leonard died in Sept quarter 1915 aged 7
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Alice is still alive in 1939.
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She is alive, but Joseph is not.
I have ordered some certificates to confirm the parentage of several of the children.
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Right, today the marriage certificate arrived and it is the correct marriage, his father is listed as Jonathan
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However, Arthur, born in 1895 is not Joseph and Alice's son, which makes sense since he is not on the 1901 census. Just needed to be certain
Peter Walton Steele's birth certificate does not give the name of the father, its blank but Alice is the mother.
Peter Walton is most definitely the father, whom is on the 1911 census.
Only question know is why Alice would give all of her illegitimate children the Steele surname, not Walton, which would usually be the case in illegitimate births.
Did she want to hide it from Joseph? He is not on the 1911 census, cannot find him yet.
Or perhaps there was some benefit to keeping the Steele name, money maybe?
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Tried to look at the 1911 Census to see if I could help, but it's been removed! Anyway, when a woman gives birth to a child out of wedlock, the Child is given the current surname of the Mother, her legal name is Steele can't access the census to 'read' it
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As I understand it, the father has to be present at the registration if the illegitimate child is to take his surname.
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True, Not sure when that dates from, I believe it came about because People were stating a Father on the Birth that was later disputed