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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Fredsboy on Wednesday 14 November 18 19:06 GMT (UK)
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As a newbie I seemed to be doing so well, until I went down the Bermondsey side of the family.
Starting point are the parents of:
Isabella Howell: bn 20 Sept 1880 75 Friar Street to John and Ellen (nee Weatherley, I believe this is Weatherby)
Alice Howell: bn 9 June 1886 11 Denman Rd to John & Ellen ((nee Weatherley, I believe this is Weatherby)
and a few other sisters and brother I have and good on.
In 1891 John (widower) and family are living at 23 Debness Road (I believe this is Debnams Road) and I think Ellen died in 1888, possibly in child birth to daughter Ellen.
John is variously a fish cure/seller and labourer. His offspring continue in fish related stuff (Billingsgate was a short walk over the river). John remarried (actually I don't think he married the first time) in 1893 when he gave his fathers name as 'William', and he died in 1900 (I have certificate).
I know there is a Howell family nearby, also John (bn in Hoxton) and Ellen, who is a life long paper cutter, so I can eliminate them in older searches.
In 1881 there is John & Ellen Howell at Mina Court with a daughter Isabella (7 months) and daughter Mary A, aged 5. I am fairly certain this is them as I can throw a small cloth over the various addresses they are at afterwards.
I have tried every permutation I can think of but drawing a blank on finding out anything on John and Ellen before 1881 or what happened to Mary A.
Any suggestions very gratefully accepted, you've all been inspirational so far
Paul
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GRO Online Index (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content - you have to register but it's free!) has:
HOWELL, ISABELLA (Mother's Maiden Name:) WEATHERBY
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 56
HOWELL, ELLEN WEATHERBY Oder
GRO Reference: 1882 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 59
HOWELL, ANNIE WEATHERBY
GRO Reference: 1884 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 87
HOWELL, ALICE WEATHERLEY
GRO Reference: 1886 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 284
HOWELL, ELLEN WEATHERBY
GRO Reference: 1888 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 284
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Baptisms (all Howell):
St John’s, Waterloo Rd
3 Oct 1880: Isabella (b 3 Sep 1880), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 4 Herbert’s Bldgs, Webber St
7 May 1882: Ellen (b 7 Apr 1882), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 6 King’s Pl, King’s St, Lancaster St, Blackfriars
St Mary, Newington
5 Oct 1884: Annie (b 7 Sep 1884), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 41 Brandon St.
11 Jul 1886: Alice (b 9 June 1886), dau of John (gen dealer) & Ellen, of 11 Denman Rd, Rotherhithe.
St Katharine’s, Rotherhithe
17 April 1888: Ellen, dau of John (fishmonger) & Ellen, of 22 Debnam’s Rd.
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Hi just a long shot, but this family in 1871 caught my eye:-
Mary WETHERBY 44 Widow
John J 24
Ellen 17
Isabella 15
Residing at Gun Street, Southwark
Census ref RG10/604/48/29
Keyboard86
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Hi again, in 1861 this family is headed by a John WEATHERBY 48 occ Hawker of Poultry, Ellen is Eleanor, Mary is Mary Ann, at same address as 1871
Census ref RG09/331/78/12
Keyboard86
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birth reg for Ellen
Elinor Weatherby sept qtr 1853 Lambeth vol 1d pg 228 mmn Aguirra
Isabella seems to have been registered as Jane sept qtr 1855 vol 1d pg 211 same mmn
There had been an older sister Ann Isabella registered sept qtr 1850 same mmn, but she died dec qtr 1854
John Weatherby, bachelor, huckster married Mary Ann Hussey, widow, 10 April 1855 at St John's Lambeth, his father Nicholas, mariner, hers Joseph Aguirra, musician, both of Victoria Place, both signed, witnesses Nicholas Weatherby and Ealnor Boakes.
Eleanor Margaret Weatherby had married John Lawrence Boakes in December 1842, one of the witnesses was M Aguirra.
;)
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Mary Ann's first marriage
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6XQ-87Z
Nehemiah died aged 30 march qtr 1854 Lambeth vol 1d pg 189
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Possible for JOhn in 1871, living in Southwark?
Robert Petts 31
Hannah Petts 20
William Petts 1
William Fenwick 45
James Hatford 25
John Howell 20 - lodger, labourer b St Saviour [Southwark]
Joseph Couser 19
RG10, 596, 52, 43
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Just to count this out if you come across it
Mary Ann Howell, father John Henry Howell, fishmonger
Edward Bisshopp, public house manager. Father Edward Bowyer Bisshopp, traveller
Marriage Date: 3 Jan 1893, St Mary Magdalene, Bermondsey, Southwark
However - 1901 suggest she's born Brighton with a sister Lizzie b c1876 also b Brighton. I can find them in 1881 in Brighton with father and mother, and on GRO. Parents married in 1867 so not the right John Howell fishman
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Thanks all,
The FBI should align itself like this! Loads of leads thx. I was aware of the kids except Annie and Gun Street keeps popping up for me, its the next street to Mina Court.
Keep em coming please, looking forwad to the weekend and plotting out all these. Good job I bought bulk post-its
Thx again
Paul
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Big thanks KGarrard.
I don't how I missed Annie - clearly you had a search strategy that she popped up, would you be OK sharing that please.
P
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Thanks keyboard 86.
Given Ellen appears to be older than John and i can find no trace of her birth as a Weatherby, I am starting to think she may have been previously married and widowed. I am following that theory for a while.
Thx again
P
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Thx AVM228
I notice you came good on baptism's , is that a strategy or filling in the gaps.
P
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Thanks all,
The FBI should align itself like this! Loads of leads thx. I was aware of the kids except Annie and Gun Street keeps popping up for me, its the next street to Mina Court.
Keep em coming please, looking forwad to the weekend and plotting out all these. Good job I bought bulk post-its
Thx again
Paul
OK follow by all means that Ellen was previously married, you mention Gun Street as next door to Mina Court, the Wetherby/Weatherby family were at this address for at least 2 census? The maiden name of the Mother of the Howell children was Weatherby?
Keyboard86
PS the birth registration of Ellen/Eleanor was provided by Osprey in reply 5
Which census return is Ellen older than John?
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Big thanks KGarrard KGarrad.
I don't how I missed Annie - clearly you had a search strategy that she popped up, would you be OK sharing that please.
P
As I said - I used GRO Online Index (https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content - you have to register but it's free!).
I set Surname as Howell and Mother's Maiden Surname as Weatherby.
Then I set the Year as 1880 (Isabella's birth) +/- 2 years. (that gives a spread of 5 years)
You have to search for Male and Female separately.
Changing the year by 5 years gets the next "batch"!
Finally, I tried again but setting Mother's Maiden Surname to "Similar Sounding Variations" - which is how I found Alice.
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Ah! Doah.
I have GRO membership but I used it to find MMN and then get certificates to get addresses. It never occured to me to use a known MMN to search for other children. Hiding in plain sight. Likewise I assume from consistent use of ‘the mark of’ that literacy wasn't brilliant so using ‘sounds like’ is a great tip.
Thax again
P
Today is take stock day and see what picture all these new piece paint.
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Thanks Osprey,
I was wondering where you were coming from and independently came across the same data (which is good :) ) .
Going back to my old maps we have two families two streets apart so I am discounting a previous marriage for Ellen (Eleanor/Elinor) and pursuing the Weatherby line to see where that takes me.
My poor old mum is about to get a big surprise - I'll wait till she is sitting down.
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Hi again, just posting for possibly my reference the 1861 for the Weatherby family:-
John Weatherby 48 occ Hawker of Poultry b Shields, Northumberland
Mary Ann 39
John 15
George 13
Nicholas 10
Eleanor 7
Isabella 6
Residing Gun Street
All other than John snr born Lambeth.
PS Nicholas seems to have been a naughty boy, as spends two census returns in prison, 1871 in Wandsworth and 1881 in Parkhust, possibly died 1894 St George Hanover Sq.?
1891?
Keyboard86
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OK I see from the marriage of John Weatherby to Mary A Hussey ( Widow ) they were both residing Victoria Place in 1855, this family were there 1851:-
John Wetherby 34 occ Dealer in Fish in Street
Mary A 33
John J 4
George N 2
Ann J or I 8 months
Census ref HO107/1569/347/39
In 1841 census two families in Harlngton Street, Lambeth
John Weatherby 26 occ Huckster
Mary 23
Ann 17
HO107/1061/ 5/39 / 26
James Hussey 30
Ann 30
Nehemiah 15
Joseph 10
Sarah 7
HO107/1061/ 5/27 / 3
Keyboard86
PS I see when Nehemiah Hussey occ Chair Maker married Mary Ann 1843, they were both of Harlington Street. ( Original on Ancestry )
The Ann Weatherby on 1841 census marries a Benjamin Clark occ Chair Maker 23rd January 1843 St John the Evangelist, Lambeth
Grooms father William occ Labourer
Brides father Nicholas no occupation
Witnesses John Weatherby & Eleanor Boakes.
PS Nicholas appears to spend 1841/51 in the Workhouse.
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:) OK after a bit of a search, the Mary in 1841 could be another sister of John & Ann Weatherby, as this 1851 is the only one that makes sense for Nehemiah?
1851 census
Nehemins HAPEY 27 occ Chair Maker b Stourbridge
Mary Ann 26 b Lambeth
Mary 4 b Lambeth
Eliza 1 b Lambeth
Residing at White Horse Street, Lambeth
Census ref HO107/1569/355/9
Keyboard86
??? The maiden name of the children looks to be Purser?
Really odd as in 1841 Harlington Street is a Sarah Purser 37 and Mary Purser 15?
Census ref HO107/1061/ 5/38 / 25?
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Plotted this all out and this is what I think happened - the data seems to support this.
There are TWO Mary Anns in Nehemiah's life. He marries the first (Aguerra/Aquirra) but pretty soon moves in with second (Purser) with whom he has several children. Pretty soon after his death the widow Aguerra remarries to John Weatherby (with whom she already looks to have started a family including my GGGGM Elinor/Eleanor/Ellen) and number two, Purser, now marries Charles Payne.
I am putting a second thread out there as to why Mary Ann Purser has Hussey next to her place of birth in 1861 Census.
Keep the ideas coming please
Paul
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??? Please do not start a second thread, as in my opinion all can be solved on this one.
If you do please add a link to this thread otherwise their will be duplication of effort?
Keyboard86
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Hi again, if it was me, I would be searching the outcome of the two Hussey children in 1851, ( reply 19 )
Mary Ann June qtr 1847 Lambeth and Eliza March qrr 1850 Lambeth both mmn Purser?
I have shown a possible Mary Purser aged 15 in 1841 census, Aguirra family none so far.
Keyboard86
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apologies keyboard86 - I didn't realise I could link and as the question was more generic (i.e. useful to others going forward) thought that the best approach.
P :-[
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Oh well find the two Hussey girls then, what proof have you that Mary A Purser married Charles Payne?
Keyboard86
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I am putting a second thread out there as to why Mary Ann Purser has Hussey next to her place of birth in 1861 Census.
The new thread is here https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=803914.msg6620504#msg6620504
and the word in question is Surrey, i.e. the name of the county of birth.
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;D Thanks JenB, can you and others locate what happened to the Hussey girls I listed above post 1851?
Keyboard86
Ignore as can see they look to be the Mary A and Eliza PAYNE on the other thread!
The George Payne on 1861 census was registered as George Purser Payne March qtr 1853 East London Union mmn Purser
Charles was registered as Charles Henry Payne Sept qtr 1857 Lambeth mmn Purser
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Hi Keyboard86. I have the marriage record 3 May 1857 with both living in Upper Marsh (round the the corner at Waterloo).
Re Surrey - I looked very closely and still think it is Hussey. Surrey isnt added anywhere else (as an afterthought) on any Lambeth record I've seen - I concede I am a still a newbie though.
I found both Hussey girls and ordered birth certificates to get addresses, Both have MMN Purser
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:) It is Surrey ok
Keyboard86
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Definitely Surrey - clear as day.
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The word Surrey has been added because the original entry was simply Lambeth Parish which did not include the name of the county.
As pointed out on your other thread, the word Surrey has also been added to another entry on the same page.
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Conceded! I can hardly read my own hand writing
Keyboard86: what search/parameter did you use to find:
"this family were there 1851:-
John Wetherby 34 occ Dealer in Fish in Street
Mary A 33
John J 4
George N 2
Ann J or I 8 months
Census ref HO107/1569/347/39"
I don't know how to search against Census ref (help talks about "old Searches" on Ancestry - maybe I don't have right package - but usual searches are not finding this for me
Thx
P
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Hi as you use Ancestry try John J WESTERBY b 1847 Lambeth.
Have we now two different Mary A's in 1861 just who was Joseph Aguirra occ Musician, who was and what happened to the Sarah Purser aged 37 in 1841 census?
Keyboard86
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there's a marriage 11 Aug 1828 in St Martin in the Fields for Joseph Aguirra & Elizabeth Brennan. He signed, she marked, witnesses Chas Perks & H Rachett (?)
Also in the same church one on 7 Jan 1813 for Joseph Agerra & Ann Lilly, he signed she marked. Witnesses Jno Taylor & Mary Newgent.
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Census ref HO107/1569/347/39"
I don't know how to search against Census ref (help talks about "old Searches" on Ancestry - maybe I don't have right package - but usual searches are not finding this for me
Select "Search", then "Census & Electoral Rolls".
From the list on the right-hand side, select 1851 U.K. Census Collection.
From the resulting screen, scroll down and select "1851 England Census".
Scroll down and enter:
Folio (347)
Page Number (39)
Piece (1569)
A Census Reference is always shown as:
Class (HO107 for 1841 and 1851, RG09 for 1861, RG10 for 1871, etc)
Piece
Folio
Page
Within the Class reference "HO" refers to Home Office papers and "RG" refers to Registrar General papers, all TNA references ;D
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Possible?
RC baptism in Bavarian Chapel, Warwick Street, Soho in 19 March 1815 for Mary Ann Aguirra daughter of Joseph & Ann Lilly. Mary Ann was born 18 Dec 1814.
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baptisms to same parents
Eleanor born 22 Dec 1818 bp 2 May 1819, same place as Mary Ann, Our Lady of the Assumption & St Gregory
Joseph born 22 Dec 1813, bp 17 July 1814 St Anselm & St Cecilia, Lincoln's Inn Fields
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Possible?
RC baptism in Bavarian Chapel, Warwick Street, Soho in 19 March 1815 for Mary Ann Aguirra daughter of Joseph & Ann Lilly. Mary Ann was born 18 Dec 1814.
sorry, just realised this Mary Ann is a few years older than the one who married John Weatherby.
:-\
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Thank you all for your help. Apologies if I haven't replied quick enough, there is a lot to take in, but I shall get around to responding to everyone.
Meanwhile, all further advice gratefully accepted
Paul
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Hi again, ( a ) did you locate the 1851 census given, and ( b ) the baptisms of the children of Nicholas, are on FindMyPast, in 1861 he is with what could be Eleanor Margaret Boakes shown as Weatherby.
He married 7th July 1804 Tynemouth an Isabella Sopwith, Grooms parish Gateshead, St Mary.
Nicholas Weatherby was buried 15th January 1862 Hackney, Victoria Park Cemetery of Wooton Street, Lambeth aged 93
Keyboard86
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Census ref HO107/1569/347/39"
I don't know how to search against Census ref (help talks about "old Searches" on Ancestry - maybe I don't have right package - but usual searches are not finding this for me
Select "Search", then "Census & Electoral Rolls".
From the list on the right-hand side, select 1851 U.K. Census Collection.
From the resulting screen, scroll down and select "1851 England Census".
Scroll down and enter:
Folio (347)
Page Number (39)
Piece (1569)
A Census Reference is always shown as:
Class (HO107 for 1841 and 1851, RG09 for 1861, RG10 for 1871, etc)
Piece
Folio
Page
Within the Class reference "HO" refers to Home Office papers and "RG" refers to Registrar General papers, all TNA references ;D
Yhx keyboard86 - i used both the surname and then practiced the Registry numbering method - success. Great tip thank you
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Hi again, ( a ) did you locate the 1851 census given, and ( b ) the baptisms of the children of Nicholas, are on FindMyPast, in 1861 he is with what could be Eleanor Margaret Boakes shown as Weatherby.
He married 7th July 1804 Tynemouth an Isabella Sopwith, Grooms parish Gateshead, St Mary.
Nicholas Weatherby was buried 15th January 1862 Hackney, Victoria Park Cemetery of Wooton Street, Lambeth aged 93
Keyboard86
Thanks again Keyboard86 - I am learning loads from you :-)
(a) located thx
(b) working on baptisms but I am confident that Eleanor (41 widow) is the daughter of Nicholas (97 widower) and probably the widow of Laurence Boakes. I have massive wallpaper with a million postits as I try and cross reference all these.
P
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:) As you can now find your way around a census ref on Ancestry, possible John BOOKES 42 Occ Shopkeeper ( General ) b Sevenoaks, Kent and Eleanor 33 b Northumberland are in Eaton Street, Lambeth.
Census ref HO107/Piece number 1569 Folio 343 Page 32
Keyboard86
PS this is FindMyPast Transcription.
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:) As you can now find your way around a census ref on Ancestry, possible John BOOKES 42 Occ Shopkeeper ( General ) b Sevenoaks, Kent and Eleanor 33 b Northumberland are in Eaton Street, Lambeth.
Census ref HO107/Piece number 1569 Folio 343 Page 32
Keyboard86
PS this is FindMyPast Transcription.
Thx Got him. In Ancestry it is recorded as Boakes, I also have them both in Dukes Rd in 1841 (married) although I have their marriage now in 1842 (both of Dukes Road). Sort of getting the hang of this.
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Possible?
RC baptism in Bavarian Chapel, Warwick Street, Soho in 19 March 1815 for Mary Ann Aguirra daughter of Joseph & Ann Lilly. Mary Ann was born 18 Dec 1814.
sorry, just realised this Mary Ann is a few years older than the one who married John Weatherby.
:-\
Thx Osprey
How did you find this record please - I'm still learning.
Thx
P
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there are some Roman Catholic baptisms on FindMyPast with scans of the relevant register. Entries are in Latin and no occupation noted for Joseph.
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Bit more advice please: I have a birth/baptism for Mary Ann but can't work out what to do next to access the record short of going to the Church which I am fine to do when I get a half day. I seem to be going in circles with links
Name: Mary Ann Agerra
Residence Place: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 18 Dec 1814
Christening Date (Original): 18 Dec 1814
Christening Place: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Ann
GS Film Number 1041634
Thx
Paul
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Bit more advice please: I have a birth/baptism for Mary Ann but can't work out what to do next to access the record short of going to the Church which I am fine to do when I get a half day. I seem to be going in circles with links
Name: Mary Ann Agerra
Residence Place: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 18 Dec 1814
Christening Date (Original): 18 Dec 1814
Christening Place: Lambeth, Surrey, England
Father's Name: Joseph
Mother's Name: Ann
GS Film Number 1041634
The image for this record is on Ancestry, under St Mary Lambeth. But the child was born and baptised at the General Lying-in Hospital in York Road, Lambeth, with the baptism recorded in the Lambeth parish register (P85/MRY1/379). The image of the register doesn’t add anything to the above transcript.
Assuming it is the same child as above, it looks like the parents then went for a Catholic baptism at the Bavarian Chapel three months later (see reply #35 above).
The register is not at the church but at London Metropolitan Archives (LMA), like most Anglican parish registers for what is now the Greater London area.
Also available at LMA for the Lying-In Hospital in Lambeth there are ...
• Admission registers 1767-1944
• Affidavit books with details of settlement 1812-1858
These other records are not online.
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Thx Bookbox. I had to go into London yesterday and as i passed the Lying In Hosp with a few hours to spend I popped in - it is now a Hotel. (actually the hospital she was born in was knocked down and moved in 1830 ish. So I went to The Bavarian Chapel (beautiful building) not knowing what to find (no one there) and in for a penny, went to LMA - what a great place. All the admission discharge records are missing for 1912-1814 but I did the original Affidavit Book which confirms father Joseph and mother Ann Lilly married 1813 St Martins in the Field. Unfortunately, I couldn't read it all properly, I'll go back and photograph. Good day out.
Back to Agerras, you say its in the Lambeth Parish Register - what site did you use to view this, Ancestory has no image.
Still new but willing to learn
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I'm so glad to hear you enjoyed LMA and were able to find the entry in the Affidavit Book. As well as the marriage details, this record should have provided Joseph's parish of legal settlement. Perhaps this is the part you found difficult to read? Next time ...
The image of the baptism can be found on Ancestry, in their database London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917 (search on Mary Ann Agerra in 1814).
At this particular period the Lying-In Hospital baptisms were included in the parish register for St Mary Lambeth. They are in a separate section of the register, but Ancestry hasn't differentiated them from the other Lambeth baptisms.
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Thank you
How do you know this stuff? Is just practice and experience?
I don't know what i am doing wrong I get no result; I am in All London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917.
First & middle names : Mary Ann (non exact)
Surname: Agerra (non Exact)
Birth 1814
no result. I wonder if I have a limited membership
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How do you know this stuff? Is just practice and experience?
Partly, but I also spend quite a lot of time at LMA.
Today I don't have easy Ancestry access, so perhaps someone else could help you find that image?
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this is odd. Good excuse for smiley ::)
I've tried searching with her name but it's not coming up but, select birth marriage & death records, then London Metropolitan Archives - top one in featured data collections on my screen - search on Mary Ann born 1814 in Lambeth father Joseph mother Ann leaving surname blank and the record shows.
:D
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Thank you
How do you know this stuff? Is just practice and experience?
I don't know what i am doing wrong I get no result; I am in All London, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1917.
First & middle names : Mary Ann (non exact)
Surname: Agerra (non Exact)
Birth 1814
no result. I wonder if I have a limited membership
Try this link https://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc=XTd10&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&indiv=1&db=lmabirths&gsfn=Mary&gsfn_x=1&gsln_x=1&msfng=joseph&msmng=ann&msypn__ftp=Lambeth&msbdy=1814&msbdy_x=1&new=1&rank=1&redir=false&uidh=bf5&gss=angs-d&pcat=34&fh=0&h=1891886&recoff=&ml_rpos=1
I only found it by putting only Mary, 1814 and her parents names in. Just Mary Ann Agerra didn't find it for me, so it's not just you! Bookbox just has psychic powers in her fingers :)
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Oh, Snap, Osprey
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I think what the problem is, is that the surname Agerra seems to have been entered in the first name field. That is if I put Agerra in the surname field the result does not come up but if I enter it in the first name field i.e. is as Mary Ann Agerra and no other information at all the result does come up. Strange but it is there this way.
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Sorry if my post caused confusion.
Looking again, the way I originally found the image (a few days ago) was by entering the exact date, and Lambeth as the keyword, with no name at all. From the 17 results, I then selected the target name.
(If I have an exact date and place, as here, I generally avoid entering a name, on the assumption that Ancestry will probably have mistranscribed anything unusual.)
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You lot are gold - thank you. I am learning lots of tricks.and the link took me straight to the image. Next up planning how to fill some gaps and where to go next to trace back Ann and Joseph. Speak soon.
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Using that trick, I just found her brother and the record. - Now to try and find an address.
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A little more help please. I have followed two trails Aguirra and Weatherby and found:
a) Joseph Aguirra born Guadalope served 52nd Foot Regiment record WO/97/150/52
b) Nicholas Weatherby British mariners, Trinity Hse Calenders 1797-1854
The sites we are subscribed to don't cover these records. I was planning to visit Kew but are there other ways?
Rgds
Paul
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A). The Entry NA site does not have an exact match at FindMyPast but there is this one
Josh Aguiraa 1777 — 1st (Or Grenr) Regt Of Foot Guards b West Indies Wo 97 - Chelsea Pensioners British Army Service Records 1760-1913
On cert it says
He’s b Guadeloupe joined 1801 age 24 as drummer, discharged 1828 age 46
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B. The typed index on FindMyPast tells you nothing more than the transcription which I think you can see for free?
Under it says
You can order copies of the original documents from the Society of Genealogists for £15 including postage. Upon receipt of your payment, the Society of Genealogists will locate, copy and send you a copy of the record you are interested in within 14 days.
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Thank y’all. A drummer sort of reconciles with his later profession as a musician. I will follow up on these leads.
P
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Incase you can't see this bit when not a member of Soc of Genealogists
here is what it says about those records.
The original documents
In nearly every case the Petitions follow a stereotypical formula, as the forms contain a printed set of questions which were to be answered by the applicant. The following Petition of Ann Bell in January, 1848, may be taken as a representative example:
To the Honorable the Master, Wardens and Assistants, of the Corporation of Trinity-House of Deptford-Strond. The humble Petition of Ann Bell, aged forty six years, residing at Queen Street, Whitehaven, Widow of John Bell,
Sheweth,
That your Petitioner's Husband went to Sea at the Age of 15 in the Year 1820 and was employed in the Merchant Sea Service for 27 Years, in the following Ships, and others, and in the annexed Stations:
Year Ship or
Vessel's Name Register Tonnage Station on board From what Place,
to what Place
1820 William of 158 tons Apprentice From Whitehaven
to Dublin
1825 do. do. Mate do.
1832 do. do. Master do.
1848
up to death Ceres 150 tons Mate do.
That your Petitioner's Husband on the 16th day of January, 1848, went on board the last named vessel early in the morning to get her into a proper Berth in the Whitehaven Harbour and the Hatches having been left off he fell into [the] Hold and was killed on the place, and she has 5 Children, viz. 2 Boys under 12 Years of Age, and 3 Girls under 14 Years of Age, viz.
CHILDREN'S NAMES DATE OF CHILDREN'S BIRTH
Dorothy born 25th February 1835
William born 12 Novr 1837
Ann born 10 May 1840
Lancelot born 3 August 1842
Mary Ann born 2 July 1846
That your Petitioner has no Annual Income from Real or Personal Property. That your Petitioner's Means of Support are from her Friends, she being in a delicate state of health which not being sufficient to support herself and Family, she most humbly prays that she or her Children may be admitted to the Pension of this Corporation.
Your Petitioner will ever pray, &c.,
Ann Bell X her mark
Dated 25th January 1848.
On the other side of this Petition are certificates, one signed by the owner of the ship in which John Bell last served, another by a Medical Practitioner saying that Ann Bell is "incapable of gaining her livelihood", and the third by "two respectable Persons" (in this case six Whitehaven shipowners sign) vouching for the truth of the Petition. Then follow five certificates of baptism of the children signed by the Curate of St James, Whitehaven, a certificate of the marriage of John Bell and Ann (formerly Dobson), at the same church, and five birth certificates of the children, on one of which the informant is "John Bell of Whitehaven, Master of the House of Correction, in attendance and grandfather of the infant". The Petition is endorsed "4s.6d." and dated 14th February, 1848. This means that the Petitioner was granted that amount monthly from the date stated.
Naturally every Petition varies in the amount of information given, and also the number of documents enclosed in support of the Petitioner's claims, but as the period covered by them includes the whole of the Napoleonic Wars, there is a tremendous amount of valuable genealogical information about many seamen who either fought or were taken prisoner during those times.
Unfortunately the records of Trinity House suffered severely as a result of fires in 1666 and 1714 and the balance was almost totally destroyed by bombing in 1940. Providentially in 1934 the Corporation of Trinity House had presented to the Society of Genealogists all the Petitions for assistance then surviving and covering the period 1787 to 1854.
At some time in the eighteenth century the first Petitions had been given a serial letter A, and were numbered from 1 to 10,000. They were entered into Pension Pay Books where all details as to the rates of pay, etc, were recorded. All the Petitions in Series A have perished, and although the Pay Books survived from 1775 and contained details of Petitioners from A2547 onwards, these too were destroyed in 1940.
All the Petitions until B4001 dated 1 February, 1787, have also disappeared but from that date the Society has an apparently complete run to 1854. The Petitions were originally filed in bundles in numerical order in their respective years, but they were opened out by the Society, placed in rough alphabetical order, and then bound into 102 volumes. For some unknown reason an additional group of Petitions, covering a similar period was put to one side at the Society and not traced until 1970 when it also was bound into eleven volumes. All these documents, after having been microfilmed, were deposited by the Society at the Guildhall Library, London.
Further information on Trinity House and its records, now stored at the Guildhall Library, London, is available at www.history.ac.uk/gh/thouse.htm and www.history.ac.uk/gh/thouse2.htm , and in an article by E.P. Stapleton, that appeared in "The Genealogists' Magazine", vi, 490-492 (1934).
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Please note that you do not need to be a member of the SOG to see the petitions. The original records are not at Guildhall Library but at LMA.
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Thx Mckha489, I am consolidating this information and planning a few archive visits - never been to Kew or Lambeth libraries so looking forward to it.
Obliged as ever Bookbox. :)
Does anyone know if the experienced members on here offer 'mentor days' - meet at Key/LMA and in return for coffee and lunch give advice and guidance?
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I checked LMA records and everything seems to be transferred there except "The Trinity House petitions : a calendar of the records of the Corporation of Trinity House, London in the library of the Society of Genealogists."
A new library (exciting) so I'll go along to Guildhall and report back my findings (unless someone has membership of something that gives more information).
FYI - I try and split my time between my family research and reading the FAQs etc. to learn more generally - there is such a lot
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I checked LMA records and everything seems to be transferred there except "The Trinity House petitions : a calendar of the records of the Corporation of Trinity House, London in the library of the Society of Genealogists."
A new library (exciting) so I'll go along to Guildhall and report back my findings (unless someone has membership of something that gives more information).
I think you may have misunderstood. Apologies if I wasn’t clear above.
The original Trinity House Petitions (as opposed to the Calendar) are held at LMA, not at Guildhall.
This is from the LMA research guide Records of the Corporation of Trinity House:
https://search.lma.gov.uk/SCRIPTS/MWIMAIN.DLL/142194367/2/1/73?RECORD&UNION=Y
To receive a Trinity House pension or enter an almshouse, one had to petition the Corporation. Petitions survive from 1787-1854 and are a useful family history source; they are available to consult on microfilm:
• Main series of petitions 1787-1854 (Ms 30218A)
• Second series of petitions 1787-1853 (Ms 30218B)
Both series are indexed in a volume "Trinity House Petitions" on the open shelves in the Information Area.
The original petitions were ‘calendared’ (listed and summarized in surname/date order) and microfilmed many years ago by the Society of Genealogists, who then deposited them at Guildhall Library. I think there is still a copy of the Calendar (only) at Guildhall Library, but not the petitions themselves, which were transferred to LMA.
The Calendar is now also available online. The Calendar entry for Nicholas Weatherby reads as follows:
WEATHERBY Nicholas, 46, wife Isabella, of Glovers Hatch, Lambeth, 1820
If you think this is your man, you should access the original petition and see the full information (of the kind outlined in the example in reply #63 above). To do this you have some choices:
(a) order a printout of the petition from the microfilm held at the SoG, via FindMyPast (£12.00)
(b) order a printout of the petition from the microfilm direct from the SoG, using this link (£12.00)
http://www.sog.org.uk/books-courses/books-publications/trinity-house-petitions
(c) visit LMA and view the microfilmed petition for yourself (free access).
I hope this is now clear.
ADDED - I see that LDS have digitised the petitions, so viewing them at a LDS Family History Center would be another option.
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/29802?availability=Family%20History%20Library
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Does anyone know if the experienced members on here offer 'mentor days' - meet at Key/LMA and in return for coffee and lunch give advice and guidance?
I can't say whether anyone on here does this, but perhaps you will get an offer?
Otherwise, LMA staff are extremely knowledgeable and helpful. Don't be afraid to ask. They can offer lots of guidance if they are not too busy when you visit (pick a quiet day, e.g. Monday).
LMA also have a team of experienced volunteers who do mentoring work of this kind on their Saturday opening days (usually the second Saturday of the month).
Many professional genealogists also offer this kind of service, on a fee-paying basis.
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Thx Mckha489, I am consolidating this information and planning a few archive visits - never been to Kew or Lambeth libraries so looking forward to it.
Obliged as ever Bookbox. :)
Does anyone know if the experienced members on here offer 'mentor days' - meet at Key/LMA and in return for coffee and lunch give advice and guidance?
Hello
You may already know that you will need to prove who you are and where you live at most Archives and some Archives don't accept the CARN (County Archive Research Network) Card.
T.N.A., Kew
However The National Archives, Kew; British Library and some other Archives and Institutions have their own electronic entry system and/or Readers Ticket, to see original documents.
For TNA, Kew
The National Archives, Kew
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/visit-us/
'Readers Ticket' required to view original Documents and everything in the secure Reading Room areas
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/visit-us/researching-here/do-i-need-a-readers-ticket/
Even if you Register in Advance, you'll need to take your current original proofs of Identification and address/es with you, until you are issued with the official Readers Ticket. When Renewing / Replacing you'll need to repeat the process.
Mark
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Thank you Bookbox,
this is definitely my man (correct wife and address). LMA here I come.
Mark, thx for the advice. I have a History Card at LMA (they were helpful but end of day a little rushed) and will re-read Kew and make any pre-bookings.
Just started on the male side (John Howell) so Ill plan a full day
Paul
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Popped into Lambeth Archives (Minet Library) - lovely helpful people working there, really cosy and crossed off a few maybe's (found consecutive year maps proving changes of street names, drainage maps are incredibly detailed. They have thousands of non-online card indices. I am planning a more full day if I can return any favours with look ups, London street names etc.
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Merry Christmas all.
Bookbox, thank you for your explantion, I popped into LMA yesterday and it all made sense. Having the Calender in my hand I understood this was the index and then finding the petition on microfiche was a veritable treasure trove, it included details about his wife and children including affidavits about christenings dates and places and then one on his christening including his parents names - Bingo!
At Kew I obtained Josephs discharge papers and now I am reading eveything I can about why and how he ended up joining the English Army. He was black and presumably French speaking. The history books suggest that we, the English, had recently invaded and appear to have supported the monarchists opposed, to other things, freedom of slaves. I know this is an incredibly complex subject, especially in Guadaloupe with its free people of colour policy but Guadaloupe appears to have good records, in French, so my son’s bilingual girlfriend will be even more welcome this Christmas.
What a lovely bunch you all are.
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Thanks for posting an update. It's good to hear of your excellent progress. Your thread is an object lesson in the value of researching in record offices (for those who have access).
Merry Christmas :)
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Quick update. Received Mary Ann's death certificate today. Thanks to all your help I have quite an in depth knowledge of the Weatherbys at that time and the local history in what is now Waterloo. I have built it in Ancestry in the Waye family tree