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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 20:57 GMT (UK)

Title: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 20:57 GMT (UK)
Can anyone suggest what Isabelle's relationship and marital status in the attached extract are please?
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:25 GMT (UK)
She is married and has a son and daughter and  a boarder
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:29 GMT (UK)
Looks as if she is mother of the children, but can't read the occupation.

Odd that they put the boarder first - usually the head of the household goes first, male or female.    :-\   

Wiggy    :-\
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:33 GMT (UK)
Can't make out what is crossed out

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Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:40 GMT (UK)
Are they part of the larger household?

It looks like ‘Apartments’ or ‘Appointments’ - they first might make more sense but not sure if any would be right.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:41 GMT (UK)

Odd that they put the boarder first - usually the head of the household goes first, male or female.    :-\   


I think you are only seeing a snip of the full page. The head of the household just isn’t visible here.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:43 GMT (UK)
I wondered about that, but the line above the boarder looks thicker as if it is the end of a different household above.   :-\ :-\
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:44 GMT (UK)
Yes, it's only part of the page. I did not wish to fall foul of infringement of copyright so only included part of the household.

It's only the crossed out words that I cannot decipher - the rest, including the other members of the household, is perfectly clear.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: JohninSussex on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:46 GMT (UK)
The whole 1911 entry is here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X71D-4HF

Household
Joseph Short, Head
Alice Mary Short, Wife
Alfred John Short, Son
Alice Rosina Short, Daughter
Doris May Short, Daughter
Thomas Simmons, Boarder
Isabelle Knight, ?  32
Edgar Leslie Knight, Son 3
Phillis May Knight, Daughter 1

The crossed out entry is very difficult to read, the best I could do that makes any sense is "Open tenant" which could be intended to explain the relationship of the Knight family to the head who is Mr Short, as "boarder" does for the name above.  Not that I have ever heard or seen that phrase!

The other crossed out bit just looks like the age originally put in the Male column which is frequently seen.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Gadget on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:47 GMT (UK)
Just wondering if it could be something like Annuitant  with a strike out line through the second letter

 :-\

Added - can't be - I see it's in the relationship to head  :-[
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:48 GMT (UK)
I wondered about that, but the line above the boarder looks thicker as if it is the end of a different household above.   :-\ :-\

There is a bolder line after 5 entries and then 10 entries on the census pages. They are all like that in 1911.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Wiggy on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:50 GMT (UK)
I wondered about that, but the line above the boarder looks thicker as if it is the end of a different household above.   :-\ :-\

There is a bolder line after 5 entries and then 10 entries on the census pages. They are all like that in 1911.

Thanks for that - will try to remember for future reference.    ;)
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: JenB on Wednesday 14 November 18 21:54 GMT (UK)
Was the ‘long s’ still used around 1911? I thought the word could possibly have been ‘assistant’ with the second letter of the word being a long s
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:00 GMT (UK)
Was the ‘long s’ still used around 1911? I thought the word could possibly have been ‘assistant’ with the second letter of the word being a long s
I did briefly wonder about that, but a female cook as an assistant to a carter seems a bit odd.

Also odd, though nothing do to with deciphering, is that the son's birth is in FreeBMD but not in the GRO online index; I can't be sure of having found the daughter's birth; I can't find the marriage; and I have no idea where the husband was. Or why the information about Isabelle's marriage and number of children has been crossed out.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:03 GMT (UK)
There’s an index-only baptism for Edgar Leslie Knight at Stafford (surprisingly) on 19 March 1908, son of George Henry Knight & Isabel.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:04 GMT (UK)
What was Isabelle’s maiden name?
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:05 GMT (UK)
There’s an index-only baptism for Edgar Leslie Knight at Stafford (surprisingly) on 19 March 1908, son of George Henry Knight & Isabel.
Yes, I found that too, and it doesn't seem to make sense if he was born in Bristol.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:07 GMT (UK)
What was Isabelle’s maiden name?
I don't know. That is one of the things I would like to find out but as the birth index entry is missing from the GRO online index I have no way of knowing it for certain in the short term.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: hallmark on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:09 GMT (UK)
Not sure if it is better or worse....   ;D


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Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:13 GMT (UK)
There’s an index-only baptism for Edgar Leslie Knight at Stafford (surprisingly) on 19 March 1908, son of George Henry Knight & Isabel.
Yes, I found that too, and it doesn't seem to make sense if he was born in Bristol.

There doesn’t seem to be a separate Edgar which this could relate to, and the date fits well with his birthdate, 26 February 1908.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:18 GMT (UK)
Not sure if it is better or worse....   ;D
Neither am I  :)
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: mckha489 on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:21 GMT (UK)
It doesn’t help here, but. Did you know that if the GRO indexers couldn’t read the surname it is entered as ..., so if you cant find someone, it is worth trying

As shown for females 1908 +/- 2 yrs



Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:27 GMT (UK)
A published tree shows her as Isabel/Isabella Perry (with photo) with parents William and Mercy  and spouse, George Henry Knight no details.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:30 GMT (UK)
Did you know that if the GRO indexers couldn’t read the surname it is entered as ...
Yes.

But FreeBMD indexes ten births including Edgar Leslie Knight with the same reference - Bristol, 1908, June quarter, Vol 6a, Page 5 - and all 10 are missing altogether from the births index on the GRO web site. Not just the mothers' maiden surnames, everything. I think the GRO must have missed a page out when they were indexing that book.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:31 GMT (UK)
A published tree shows her as Isabel/Isabella Perry (with photo) with parents William and Mercy  and spouse, George Henry Knight no details.
Published where? (Not that I would trust any published tree, but it might be a starting point.)

Still can't find a marriage, however, so maybe they were married overseas. Or maybe not at all.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:32 GMT (UK)
Birth
Edgar Leslie Perry b Bristol 1908 mmn Knight
Note Occasional Copy A (not sure of that)

Tree Published Ancestry
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:34 GMT (UK)
Birth 1910 Bristol

Phyllis May Perry mmn Knight
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:35 GMT (UK)
Isabel Perry, 23 b Coleford Somerset, is in service in Bristol in 1901.

RG13/2376/38/15.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:36 GMT (UK)
Birth
Edgar Leslie Perry b Bristol 1908 mmn Knight
Note Occasional Copy A (not sure of that)
Ah, now that does look interesting.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:37 GMT (UK)
Marriage 1918 Bristol

Isabelle Perry and William J Mountford
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:38 GMT (UK)
I think you've cracked it! Thank you.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:39 GMT (UK)
Isabel Perry, 23 b Coleford Somerset, is in service in Bristol in 1901.

RG13/2376/38/15.

Isabella Perry was baptised 1 Dec 1878 at Coleford, Somerset.

Parents: William (labourer) & Mary, of Coleford.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: avm228 on Wednesday 14 November 18 22:42 GMT (UK)
Birth reg (per GRO index): Phyllis May Perry, mmn Knight, Sep qtr 1910 Bristol 6a 43.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Wednesday 14 November 18 23:04 GMT (UK)
Isabella Perry was baptised 1 Dec 1878 at Coleford, Somerset.
Parents: William (labourer) & Mary, of Coleford.
Mary or Mercy?

Mercy Dawson married James Button in Frome in 1851.
Philip John Button, mmn Dawson, born in Frome in 1869.
Mercy Button married William Perry in Frome in 1873.
Alice Kate, Isabella and Henry Charles Perry, mmn Dawson, born in Frome in 1873, 1875 and 1878 respectively.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: tellx on Wednesday 14 November 18 23:15 GMT (UK)
Best I can make out is "Apartments"
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: heywood on Wednesday 14 November 18 23:52 GMT (UK)
That was my original thought and it looks even more like that as posted.
Perhaps she and her children had separate accommodation whereas the boarder may have lived more as a family member.
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 15 November 18 02:08 GMT (UK)
Have to say, great work folks on all accounts as it was a very difficult one for sure, well done all!

Forfarian,

This one really amazed me after looking at your initial post, how much interest/time/effort/conclusion went into this!

Annie
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Rosinish on Thursday 15 November 18 02:18 GMT (UK)
Did you know that if the GRO indexers couldn’t read the surname it is entered as ..., so if you cant find someone, it is worth trying

Thank you Mckha...I didn't know that but very useful, not only for myself but others too!

Thankfully, I haven't had any queries (yet) with GRO listings  :D

Annie
Title: Re: What are the details crossed out in this 1911 census?
Post by: Forfarian on Thursday 15 November 18 09:24 GMT (UK)
Have to say, great work folks on all accounts as it was a very difficult one for sure, well done all!
This one really amazed me after looking at your initial post, how much interest/time/effort/conclusion went into this!
Indeed. Thanks to everyone who helped with this.

This is for a friend whose family it is. I'll have to consult with him before I take it any further, as in ordering certificates etc. Or attempting to find the errant father.