RootsChat.Com
Some Special Interests => Heraldry Crests and Coats of Arms => Topic started by: Pennines on Thursday 15 November 18 16:10 GMT (UK)
-
I wonder if anyone can help me please with deciphering correctly the following description of a Family Crest.
"A griphon’s head erm. Wings endorsed erminois gorged with a collar az. Therefrom pendant a cross Moline gu”
In addition, can I only find out when a crest was awarded by contacting the College of Arms please - or is there a quicker and easier way?
Many thanks if you can help.
-
Google??
Try griphon’s head erm. Wings endorsed erminois gorged with a collar
or whatever!
-
Hallmark -- thank you so much for your speedy reply. I supect 'griphon' is what we would now know as 'griffin' -- but it's the colours I am not sure of as well.
I can't believe I didn't think of googling it! (Age!)
-
Hi,
to describe the crest
a Griffin's head coloured white with black spots
wings back to back coloured gold with black spots
encircled round the throat with a blue collar from which hangs a red cross that has slightly flared ends
hope this helps
Chris
-
Chris -- you are an absolute star. Thank you so very much. I really appreciate you taking the time to clarify this.
-
no problem
Chris
-
Chris --- it was to me!!
-
btw
the crest, worn on the helmet, was the emblem that served as a rallying point for the knights followers when the banner and shield were broken so making him known in battle or tournament. That is why no crest was allowed to a female.
Do you have a description of his Shield of Arms?
Chris
-
That is an interesting piece of information Chris, I didn't know that.
Unfortunately though, I don't have any details of a Shield of Arms -- I have obtained this crest from a book on the Ancestry website, originally published in 1897.
I have now written to the College of Arms to enquire about it's validity and to ask, if it is valid -- to which member of the family it was awarded.
-
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=v-XJy1IWSEoC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=dugdale+crest&source=bl&ots=4d_IC_TcrV&sig=lOSzWQu9Iltyy8hkvDQGOWBKKmI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi9y57ItNfeAhXIAnIKHRlhC8EQ6AEwDXoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=dugdale%20crest&f=false
This book extract describes the shield and crest in reference to William Dugdale who wrote about The Antiquities of Warwickshire in the mid-1600's.
-
http://www.linkpendium.com/dugdale-family/
but as to which line it applies to.......
-
It seems likely that the Arms ascribed to William Dugdale, as given in the article quoted by Mirl, were granted to, or adopted by, him during his tenure as an Heraldic officer. His father is described as being a steward to the local landowner, so probably an educated man who could have been armigerous but I've been unable to find any record of this. Bear in mind that many families of the Tudor period, and before, had "assumed" Arms, although technically forbidden by a writ of Henry V in 1417, and this practice continued (and continues ?) despite the occasional policing by Heraldic Visitations up until 1688.
Given that William Dugdale was himself one of the "Visitors" I would guess that he ensured his Arms were properly approved !
Whilst researching for this query I came across the arms of Baron Crathorne, a Dugdale descendant, raised to the peerage in 1959. They are described as "Ermine, a cross moline gules, between four hurts". "Hurts" was new to me but I realised that I would have described them as "roundels azure", in other words : blue coloured balls. The term "hurts" comes from the colour and shape of the whortleberry.
I'm always amazed at how much there is to learn in this discipline.
Maec
-
Can I just add: There is no such thing as a "Family Crest"! ;D
Arms are awarded to (or assumed by) a named individual and only he, and his male heirs are allowed to use the Arms.
Younger siblings of the heir may have a similar Arms, but differentiated by a symbol (a mark of cadency). E.G. The Prince of Wales arms are different to those of the Queen.
-
Thank you SO very much to all of you who have helped me with this query.
I am sorry if I am using the incorrect term by saying 'family crest' -- my knowledge of the complex subject of Heraldry will not fill the back of a postage stamp!
My purpose in raising the query concerns a Dugdale famil,y initially from the Great Harwood/Clayton le Moors area of Lancashire.
When I left school way, way back - I worked for Post Office Telephones in a house called Griffin Lodge in Blackburn -- built and initially lived in by a Thomas Dugdale (who went on to become a Mayor of Blackburn for 2 consecutive terms.) He also built Griffin Mill, but was originally a surgeon. The nearby area of the town is called Griffin - and according to information I have 'dug' up - the area was named after a pub called the Griffins Head.
When I came across the picture of the Arms showing a 'gryphons' head for this Dugdale family -- I naturally wonder if Thomas Dugdale (1797 - 1875) named his home after this - and whether the area's name actually came from that as opposed to the pub.
The first time I can see 'Griffin' as an address on a census is in 1851 with a Griffin Turnpike. Hence this is the stage I am at -- trying to discover whether the Griffin area and house was effectively named from the Dugdale 'Arms' -- or is this just a huge coincidence.
I was inspired to investigate Griffin Lodge and it's owners simply because my GP surgery nearby, along with 2 others - are hoping to buy the building (which had become derelict and vandalised). Naturally, with having worked there in the past I thought I would take on this project -- not expecting this crest which may be of such significance in the naming of the house AND the area!
I have obtained all the Wills I need and the BMDs -- lots of general info from newspapers -- but have been completely thrown by this developement.
My sincere and grateful thanks to all of you -- you are doing a sterling job in teaching me about Heraldry as well!
-
Just an update -- I have now found the Griffins Head Inn, Griffin Bar and Griffin Row in Witton (part of Blackburn) and Blackburn in 1841 --- all in the same area of the town where Griffin Lodge was built by Thomas Dugdale later. (In the 1850s).
Hence it is looking like the Dugdale 'crest' of a gryphon's head -- is just an amazing coincidence, as there were buildings named Griffin before Thomas Dugdale moved into that part of town.
I am going to lie down in a darkened room now, as I was so flummoxed by that particular crest being shown against this particular Dugdale family in the Burke's Family Records Book.
-
There was a Sir William Dugdale who was Garter King of Arms. He was allowed to add a garter of St. George to his arms in 1698.
Chris
-
Yes --- thank you Chris. The William seems to have been born in 1605 - if it's the correct one I am looking at.
However the only one baptised anywhere near the area where the particular lineage I am involved with, was baptised in 1607 and was Roman Catholic on the face of it.
I am now suspecting that the Coat of Arms belongs to a different Dugdale line and has been shown in the book against this line in error (although you never know).
I may have been wasting the time of all you kind people who have responded to this query -- although I have learnt some things about heraldry along the way. I do thank you, most sincerely, once again. I may have been investigating a complete red herring - but just can't quite get over the coincidence of the Griphon's Head -- and the Dugdale House named Griffin.
There is a mention of a connection between this family and a Dugdale family of Wroxall Abbey, who are apparantly mentioned in Burke's Landed Gentry -- and the link provided by Mirl referred to a William Dugdale as an author of the 'Antiquities of Warwickshire'.
Wroxall did NOT belong to a Dugdale then --- but much later it did, when the estate was bought by a James Dugdale in 1861!
Allvery confusing -- but again my grateful appreciation to everyone who has helped me.
-
Hello, I'm new here, and after searching the internet, decided that this thread was hopefully a good bet for helping to resolve a query.
I understand most terms and descriptions, but have not been able to find out what "of the last" means. The full entry in Burke is "Orescuilz, [Wilts. Temp. Richard I.] az. a chief or, six lions ramp, of the last." Does it just mean that the six lions are also 'or' ?
I'm also puzzled by the "Temp. (temporary?) Richard I" part.
Any help will be gratefully appreciated, thank you.
Phil
-
Hi, and welcome to RootsChat :)
Does it just mean that the six lions are also 'or' ?
Yes, it means the same tincture/colour as last mentioned.
I'm also puzzled by the "Temp. (temporary?) Richard I" part.
It stands for tempore (Lat.) and means 'in the time of Richard I'.
-
Many thanks 'Bookbox' for the quick reply. Much appreciated!
The "time of Richard I" is also most useful, 1189-1199, as the family name d'Orescuilz was relatively short lived after the Norman Invasion but I wasn't sure for how long. I may well be descended from one of the grandsons of Orescuilz, namely the Payn family of Stourpaine, Dorset.
As an aside, I think that this Old French name is pronounced 'Horse Coys', and some wag latinised the name in 1166 as "Aureis Testiculis" i.e. 'Golden Balls'.
Thanks again, Phil