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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: jen56johns on Friday 16 November 18 09:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
Wondering if anyone can help me with this question. I have an ancestor who was born in Cornwall in 1876. He was named William Henry Williams on the birth certificate, no father listed and mother was Gertrude Johns. That alone is unusual to start with, isn’t it? Normally if the father isn’t listed, the child has the mother’s surname but not here.
Then I found the baptism and he becomes William Henry Albert Williams and the father is listed as William Henry Williams and occupation listed. So... could Gertrude have gotten her son baptised without the father being present or him agreeing to this? Or does this imply that the parents were possibly “together” at least at this point? They never married.
All future records for the child referred to Albert Johns, so this is why I’m questioning how the father came to be acknowledged at the baptism.
All thoughts and ideas appreciated!
Thanks,
Jenni
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Neither parent has to be present (or even alive) in order to be named on the baptism. The register simply records the names of the parent(s), as provided to the minister at the time by whoever is presenting the child for baptism.
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Is he the William Henry w johns June quarter 1876 in Helton, if so free bmd has listed the surname as Johns, and William Henry Williams are his first names, the surname is assumed to be the mother’s
Mike
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Interesting maxi, thank you. GRO has his surname listed at Williams.
And thanks avm228 - I guess that explains a few things.
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Interesting maxi, thank you. GRO has his surname listed at Williams.
GRO has him as Johns, he does not appear to be listed under Williams as well https://www.gro.gov.uk/
JOHNS, WILLIAM HENRY WILLIAMS (No mothers maiden surname on index)
GRO Reference: 1876 June Quarter in HELSTON Volume 05C Page 221
If you have the actual certificate it does not give a surname for the person whose birth is being registered it just gives their first names then names both parents with their surnames.
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I see the 10 Sept 1876 Baptism on FreeREG but Familysearch.Org has Bapt the same day;
SUSAN MARY Williams to William Henry and Gertrude Williams
Same residence Herland Cross
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I suspect it varied from parish to parish, perhaps at the whim of the clergyman.
I found some baptisms in southen English ports where only the mother is mentioned. Normally that would be a fair indication that the birth was illegitimate, but I happen to know she was married to a naval captain, who was presumably away at sea and therefore could not be present.
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that would appear to be an error on FamilySearch. Susan Mary was the daughter of William Henry & Elizabeth Ann Haughton and the residence is different.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n1k/
I'm not seeing a likely local marriage for a William Williams to a Gertrude.
I've got a different scenario for one relative a few years earlier in Gerrans. Unmarried parents but father was present at the registration so on the birth certificate, but on the baptism mother is noted as 'single woman'.
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Interesting maxi, thank you. GRO has his surname listed at Williams.
GRO has him as Johns, he does not appear to be listed under Williams as well https://www.gro.gov.uk/
JOHNS, WILLIAM HENRY WILLIAMS (No mothers maiden surname on index)
GRO Reference: 1876 June Quarter in HELSTON Volume 05C Page 221
If you have the actual certificate it does not give a surname for the person whose birth is being registered it just gives their first names then names both parents with their surnames.
Well, the searchable gro index has him listed as William Williams, mother’s surname Johns. If you search for surname johns on the GRO index, he doesn’t appear.
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The online index available at free bdm has it under JOHNS twice transcribed as :
Births Jun 1876
JOHNS
William Henry W.
Helston
5c 221
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/search
JM
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Thanks everyone! I think this is getting a bit off topic as I have his birth certificate.
Appreciate the guidance on the baptism. Many thanks for all that commented.
Jenni
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Oh sorry
JM
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Are we looking at the wrong person. Our replies have been based on the Helston birth and you have not told us we were looking at the wrong one :-\
Well, the searchable gro index has him listed as William Williams, mother’s surname Johns. If you search for surname johns on the GRO index, he doesn’t appear.
From the searchable index at GRO
WILLIAMS, WILLIAM mmn JOHNS
GRO Reference: 1876 June Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 263
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Just to be clear, there are 2 Birth Registrations at play here:
WILLIAMS, WILLIAM (Mother's Maiden Surname:) JOHNS
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in REDRUTH Volume 05C Page 263
JOHNS, WILLIAM HENRY WILLIAMS (Mother's Maiden Surname:) -
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in HELSTON Volume 05C Page 221
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Oops, my mistake. Sorry! It’s the Helston birth but as I said it’s all kind of off topic as I have the birth certificate and this wasn’t my question.