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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: JamesDMcBust on Saturday 17 November 18 18:27 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I'm researching the family of John Thomas Cash b.1896 Broughton.
I have a baptism for him Q4 1896 Wrexham gives his mother's maiden name as Windsor.
A national school admission register gives his dob as 7 November 1896 and his father, Thomas.
Searching marriages of John Thomas Cash to a Windsor brings up a marriage on 1 Mar 1924 at Gwersyllt to Elizabeth Rogers and also, that Elizabeth's father as Daniel.
1901 census - John Thos Cash is with his parents (Thomas & Sarah Cash) and siblings Jane, Edward, Lilian and William. All living at Broughton. His father is listed as born 1849 and a labourer (Pit Bank) with birth place Gwersyllt. Sarah's year of birth is 1863 and born Welshampton, Shropshire.
1911 census - John Thomas (J.T.) is aged 14, living at home in Broughton with his widowed mother Sarah and siblings Edward, Lilian, Hebert and Gwendoline. J.T. is listed as a trollier below ground. [John Thomas Cash b.1896 died 1965]
John Thomas's father THOMAS CASH
Birth record - Thomas Cash born 14 May 1848 - mother's maiden name Griffiths, District Wrexham. Baptised at Gresford church. Abode: Summer Hill. Thomas's father: John Cash (labourer), mother: Ann.
I looked for a marriage for Thomas Cash to Sarah Windsor (as proved above), local to Wrexham, and found one in 1885 (bans 1, 8, 15 Feb 1885) at Brymbo. Sarah was living at Cobmere, Salop.
I looked through all the census lists to try and follow this THOMAS CASH through and I seem to get a mixture of people whose birth places are not necessarily Denbighshire.
1901 Thomas Cash (born Gwersyllt 1849) Labourer & Sarah (Welshampton) +Jane b.1886, Edward b.1891, John Thos b.1897, Lilian b. 1899 and William Windsor newphew b.1890, living Broughton.
1891 Thomas Cash (born Broughton 1848) Miner's labourer & Sarah (ditto) + Jane b.1886, E.Ann b.1888, Edward b.1891 Joseph b. 1865 and William Windsor b. 1890, living Broughton.
1881 John Cash (born Chirk 1822) Plate layer & wife Ann (b. Bangor 1823) + Thomas Cash b.1849(colliery labourer), Edward Cash b.1858 & Joseph Cash b.1865, all living Broughton.
1871 John Cash (b.1823 Chirk) Labourer & wife Anne b.1824 Flintshire. Plus Thomas b.1849, Emma b.1851, James b.1857, Edward b.1858, Elizabeth b. 1860, Ann b.1863, Joseph b.1865 and 2 boarders, all children born Summerhill, Denbighshire. Family living Moss Gwersyllt.
BUT THEN I FIND A JOHN CASH WITH A DIFFERENT WIFE.
1861 John Cash (b.1820 Chirk) Coalminer & wife MARY CASH b.1821 St Martins, Shropshire. Plus Philip b.1846, Thomas b.1848, Elizabeth b.1851, Sarah, 1856 and Mary b.1859 - all born St Martins, Shropshire - except Elizabeth born Staffs. Family living Wern, St Martins. Shropshire.
In 1851 there are two records that could relate to this family -
Ann Cash - Head - Widow - b. 1818 coal miner's wife, born Chirk with Thomas Cash, son, b. 1846, born Chirk, both living at Pentrehuged, Chirk.
(and another)
John Cash (b.1821 Chirk) & wife Mary b.1821 b.1821 St Martins, Shropshire, plus children: Philip b.1846, Thomas b.1848 and Elizabeth b.1851 all born St Martins. Family living Walsall Street, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire.
1841 census
Thomas Cash (b.1791 Denbighshire) coalminer, & wife Elizabeth b.1796 Denbighshire, with children
Ann b.1821, John b.1821, Chud b.1826, Philip b.1826, Samuel b.1828 and Edward b.1833, all born Denbighshire. family living Black Park Barracks, Chirk.
I have 2 marriages for JOHN CASH
- (1) to a MARY ROGERS on 5 July 1841 at St Martin's - groom's father's Thomas Cash, spouse's father Richard Rogers -
- (2) to a ANNE GRIFFITHS on 9 May 1846 at Holt, Denbighshire - groom's father Richard Cash and spouses's father John Griffiths.
I apologise for such a laboured posting but I needed to get all the information down.
I would be grateful for anyone's remarks as to whether I have correctly identified the family I am tracing - and whether some (or all) the census records I have given are right. Could it be that John Cash was twice married? But the marriages above quote a different father!
Thank you for taking the trouble to read this.
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Haven’t read all your post but your 4th line does not read correctly. Windsor was his mothers maiden name
Searching marriages of John Thomas Cash to a Windsor brings up a marriage on 1 Mar 1924 at Gwersyllt to Elizabeth Rogers and also, that Elizabeth's father as Daniel.
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Sorry, I should have said that I already knew from our family that he married Elizabeth Rogers. Windsor was the maiden name of John Thomas Cash's mother, Sarah. ::)
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I looked for a marriage for Thomas Cash to Sarah Windsor (as proved above), local to Wrexham, and found one in 1885 (bans 1, 8, 15 Feb 1885) at Brymbo. Sarah was living at Cobmere, Salop.
A copy of the marriage cert will show if he was a widower - it will also show his fathers name
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I've not read all your post but just to say that the Chirk and St Martin's Cash families are likely to be my relatives. My 3 x great Grandmother was Ann Cash.
I'll check my tree tomorrow.
Gadget
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I’m confused by your confusion. ;D
1871 John Cash (b.1823 Chirk) Labourer & wife Anne b.1824 Flintshire. Plus Thomas b.1849, Emma b.1851, James b.1857, Edward b.1858, Elizabeth b. 1860, Ann b.1863, Joseph b.1865 and 2 boarders, all children born Summerhill, Denbighshire. Family living Moss Gwersyllt.
BUT THEN I FIND A JOHN CASH WITH A DIFFERENT WIFE.
1861 John Cash (b.1820 Chirk) Coalminer & wife MARY CASH b.1821 St Martins, Shropshire. Plus Philip b.1846, Thomas b.1848, Elizabeth b.1851, Sarah, 1856 and Mary b.1859 - all born St Martins, Shropshire - except Elizabeth born Staffs. Family living Wern, St Martins. Shropshire.
They are not the same John, as children are being born the same years with registrations for mmn ROGERS in OSWESTRY (Elizabeth WOLVERHAMPTON) and GRIFFITHS in WREXHAM. You will find all the births on GRO.
Mmn ROGERS, 1843 Thomas, 1845 Phillip, 1848 Thomas, 1851 Elizabeth, 1854 Mary Ann, 1856 Sarah, 1858 Mary, 1861 John
Mmn GRIFFITH, 1848 Thomas, 1850 Emma, 1852 Eliza, 1854 John, 1856 James, 1858 Edward, 1860 Elizabeth, 1861 John, 1863 Ann, 1865 Joseph, 1866 John.
Jamjar
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John Cash (b.1821 Chirk) & wife Mary b.1821 b.1821 St Martins, Shropshire, plus children: Philip b.1846, Thomas b.1848 and Elizabeth b.1851 all born St Martins. Family living Walsall Street, Wolverhampton, Staffordshire.
These are Cash/Rogers, 1851: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGG4-HBW
1861: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7YR-6LK
On the 1871, I’m only seeing Sarah: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFT4-1WB
I can’t find the Cash/Griffiths on 1851, 1861 census. :(
Jamjar
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1841 census
Thomas Cash (b.1791 Denbighshire) coalminer, & wife Elizabeth b.1796 Denbighshire, with children
Ann b.1821, John b.1821, Chud b.1826, Philip b.1826, Samuel b.1828 and Edward b.1833, all born Denbighshire. family living Black Park Barracks, Chirk.
From some notes, I have:
24 May 1790 Edward Cash married Anne Frances Chirk
Children of Edward and Ann: (variously Brinkynallt, Halton, Black Park)
born 11/bpt 23 Jan 1791- Thomas
27 Nov 1813 - Thomas Cash, collier, married Martha Thomas - witness, brother Richard
Feb 9 1817, Martha Cash, aged 24, burial , Chirk
10 Oct 1818 - Thomas Cash, bachelor) married Elizabeth Jones - no Cash among witnesses and Thomas entered as a bachelor!
Gadget
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Also:
Baptism, Chirk
23 July 1815, John Cash s of Thomas and Martha, Abode - Sun which was in the pentre area of the parish.
Martha's death has her abode as Pentre.
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John Cash, bpt Chirk, 12 Nov 1820 - parents: John and Elizabeth, abode - Black Park.
Gadget
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Just been working back from John Thomas info that you have as definite:
Insert:
1881 John Cash (born Chirk 1822) Plate layer & wife Ann (b. Bangor 1823) + Thomas Cash b.1849(colliery labourer), Edward Cash b.1858 & Joseph Cash b.1865, all living Broughton.
1881 - as you've found in Broughton
Father John b. 1822, Chirk, platelayer.
Mother, Ann b. 1823 b. Bangor (on Dee). Bangor ys y coed (half in Denbighshire, half in Flintshire)
1871 - also as above
Only marriage in the area 1845 +/- 5
June Q, 1846, Wrexham John Cash to Anne Griffiths
Parish marriage John Cash m Anne Griffiths, 9 May 1846, Holt.
John's father was Richard Cash, a shoemaker
Richard Cash, shoemaker and Lucy, Forge (Pontyblew) had children bpt 1825 +/- in Chirk, but not John. The closest to his dates was:
James - bpt 12 Jan 1823
Because 'the Forge' was on the Chirk/St Martins/Duddleston border, I see that they are mentioned in each parish at times.
Richard Cash m Lucy Pritchard, Ruabon, 23 Jan 1815 - witness was a Jane Cash
There was another Richard but he was a collier and wife was Ann
Both Richard Cash in the 1841:
Collier, in Chirk:
HO107/1399/1/9/10
Shoemaker, in St Martins:
HO107/916/4/18/16
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The Richard Cash, shoemaker is shown on the 1851 to have been born St Martins, circa 1776 (HO107/1993/742/25)
Only baptism circa 1776 there (and fits if he followed his father's profession) :
5 Sept (b. 1st) Richard Cash, son of Edward (cordwainer) and Sarah
Gadget
PS- I think my Cash ancestors were the other family - coal miners. I seem to remember following this shoemaker family back in the early 2000s and discounting them.
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Thank you everyone for your comments.
I've probably made it harder for himself putting out so much detailed information. Still not sure I understand it fully.
Happy that I have right marriage for John Thomas and have him identified in correct 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses.
1881 and 1871 John and Ann - seems right children and location.
I agree that the 1871 John Cash (with Anne) and the 1861 John Cash (with Mary) is not the same person.
I used to think the line went through Ann Griffiths but the occupation of Richard Cash, the father of John Cash (marriage to Ann Griffiths in Holt in 1846) was a shoemaker, and that doesn't feel right.
All of John Thomas Cash ancestors up to this point had been miners/labourers in a mining area.
If I discount the shoemaker family as my Cash ancestors, should I be following the line of John Cash marrying Mary Rogers? If so, are my John Cash's parents Thomas Cash and Elizabeth Jones (marriage 1818)?
Hoping to get this family on my tree soon ???
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If it's the Rogers one, it is most likely one of my distant relatives.
An outside way of finding out if it is - have you done a DNA test? If so, you might well show as a match to me.
Gadget
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I would have trouble persuading my partner as it's not my line I'm researching. I'm going down the Rogers' route I think. Thanks for your help.
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Thank you everyone for your comments.
I've probably made it harder for himself putting out so much detailed information. Still not sure I understand it fully.
Happy that I have right marriage for John Thomas and have him identified in correct 1891, 1901 and 1911 censuses.
1881 and 1871 John and Ann - seems right children and location.
I agree that the 1871 John Cash (with Anne) and the 1861 John Cash (with Mary) is not the same person.
I used to think the line went through Ann Griffiths but the occupation of Richard Cash, the father of John Cash (marriage to Ann Griffiths in Holt in 1846) was a shoemaker, and that doesn't feel right.
All of John Thomas Cash ancestors up to this point had been miners/labourers in a mining area.
If I discount the shoemaker family as my Cash ancestors, should I be following the line of John Cash marrying Mary Rogers? If so, are my John Cash's parents Thomas Cash and Elizabeth Jones (marriage 1818)?
Hoping to get this family on my tree soon ???
Your Thomas Cash born 1848 was clearly the son of John Cash and wife Ann - he and all his siblings births on GRO's birth index clearly show their mother maiden name was Griffiths i.e. his parents are the John Cash and Ann Griffiths married 1846 Holt.
This marriage entry clearly states that John Cash's father was a Richard Cash, shoemaker - how can you say 'it doesn't feel right' and that you'll discount the shoemaker family as your Cash ancestors and should you be following the line of John Cash and Mary Rogers?? I can't understand your reasoning - your Thomas b.1848 was the son of John and Ann, his mmn was Griffiths so why would you follow the line of another John married to a Mary Rogers?
I've found a Richard Cash, shoemaker married to a Lucy Pritchard 25/1/1815 Ruabon, Denbighshire.
I would imagine he was a journeyman shoemaker moving around as their children seem to be:
Emily bp.21/12/1815 Ellesmere & chapelry of Duddleston, Shropshire
Emily bp.18/8/1816 Chirk, Denbighshire (can't see burial for 1st Emily so perhaps she was baptised twice)
Elizabeth bp.16/1/1820 Worthenbury, Flintshire
James bp.12/1/1823 Chirk, Denbighshire
Eliza bp.8/2/1829 St Martins, Shropshire
Louisa Cash 35 (bc.1797), bur.3/6/1832 Chirk, wife of Richd. Cash (suspect this is Lucy)
I don't think the Richard Cash, shoemaker bc.1776 on 1841 census is the one who was married to Lucy - possibly - like his mother - John's father was already dead - a Richard Cash was buried 21/1/1834 Duddleston but unfortunately no age is given on the transcript.
When John Cash married Ann Griffiths 1846 one of the witnesses was a James Cash - I think this was his brother. bp'd 1823 Chirk (as shown above). Like Gadget, I cannot find a baptism for John himself.
John's father clearly a Richard Cash, shoemaker as stated on his marriage certificate to Ann Griffiths and the birth of son Thomas (1848) and his siblings confirm their mother's mmn was Griffiths. Think both of John's parents were dead before 1841 and no doubt this is how John himself ended up in the predominant occupation of the area i.e. coal miner.
Annette
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Annette, the ROGERS Thomas was also born in 1848, maybe that’s the reasoning.
Jamjar
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The Thomas b.1848 to John and Mary (Rogers) was born in St. Martins, Shropshire and by 1881 is still there married to a Martha. Marriage took place Dec.qtr.1876 Wrexham to Martha Smith.
The Thomas b.1848 of this thread, was in Broughton 1881 with parents John and Ann.
Annette
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There is a death of a Richard Cash aged 62 in Ruabon in 1847.
Regards
Roger
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Just to say that I have now discovered that I have a DNA link (at 4th-5th cousin level) to someone who has John Cash and Ann Griffiths in their tree, through daughter Emma.
From my previous posts, I've discounted this line as the same as my line (I'm descended from Edward and Ann- their son Thomas, b. 1791, Chirk was my 4x great uncle). I'm wondering if there might be a link between my Cash line and the Richard (shoemaker) line - maybe via Edward Cash and Richard.
James - does your partner have any living relatives in Ruabon?
Gadget
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Alternatively, it could be spurious and I'm connected via another line but I don't see one as yet.
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Annette
It seems that we looked at the same information (see my previous summary of the line- Reply #10 and thereabouts). However, you say:
don't think the Richard Cash, shoemaker bc.1776 on 1841 census is the one who was married to Lucy - possibly - like his mother - John's father was already dead - a Richard Cash was buried 21/1/1834 Duddleston but unfortunately no age is given on the transcript.
It's seems an odd statement to make. How do you know it wasn't him?
Gadget
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Going through my very old notes on the Cash family:
1790 Edward Cash married Anne Frances Chirk
Children of Edward and Ann: (variously Brinkynallt, Halton, Black Park)
1790 - Thomas - married Martha Thomas 1813 - died 1844, aged 53
1792 - Mary - married Thomas Hartshorn (shoemaker) 1816
1793 - Richard - married Lucy Pritchard (Ruabon) 1815 (Lucy/Louisa d 1832)
1795 - Margaret no death record
1797 - John- died 1817, aged 20
1798 - Jane - married Edward Jones 1821
1802 - Margaret - married David Jones 1826
Gadget
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No idea of any living relatives around Ruabon. All I know of my husband's grandfather (John Thomas Cash b.1896 d.1965) was that he was a coal miner at Llay Main Colliery, living in Llay.
When I originally did my tree back in 2008 I chose the line of J.T. Cash through Thomas Cash (and Sarah Windsor), to John Cash and (Ann Griffiths) then Thomas Cash (and Elizabeth Jones). I recently took out a Findmypast subscription to see I could add a little more to my records. It was only when I struggled to find John and Ann in 1851 and 1861 and found John & Mary that I questioned my original findings. Your comments suggest I swap Thomas (and Elizabeth Jones) for Richard (and possibly? Lucy Pritchard).
Thank you
Andrea (JamesDMcBust was my dog!)
Annette's comment about me discounting the line of Richard Cash shoemaker is a fair one.
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Given that John was born Chirk and his father is given as Richard Cash, Shoemaker on his marriage cert and one of the witnesses was James Cash, it would seem that Richard and Lucy are the most likely parents. The main problem seems to be the lack of a baptism.
However, I have found that there were cases of baptisms going unrecorded in the parish records (as in other parishes. This can be explained by the fact that the vicar used to go around the largely rural community baptising babies in their homes and writing the facts down as he went or when he returned to his home.
My grandmother, in my avatar, was a descendant of this family. That is why I am particularly interested in this thread. :)
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There is an interesting baptism as follows;-
John Cash,1825,Chirk,to John(shoemaker) and Lucy of Pont y Blew
Regards
Roger
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There is an interesting baptism as follows;-
John Cash,1825,Chirk,to John(shoemaker) and Lucy of Pont y Blew
Regards
Roger
Looks as if they got the father's name wrong, Roger. Good find. I knew there was something about the vicar getting his notes mixed up - can't remember when I heard about it!
Think that solves the problem :D
Pont y blew = Forge (my Parrys were from there)
So it looks as if Andrea's husband is a distant cousin of mine ;D ;D ;D
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Looks likely.
Roger
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Pont y blew was/is only a small collection of scattered houses around the banks of the Ceiriog before it joined the Dee. We used to go for walks down there and then over a humped bridge and up a steep lane to Ifton Colliery and on to St Martins.
The Forge itself had about 4-6 terraced cottages adjacent to it. My mother's mother was born there. I have quite a few photos of it.
Interesting that one of my father's relatives (via the Cash family) lived there too.
Gadget
Just found a tiny picture that I took of the houses at the Forge, Pont y blew:
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Charming photo,Gadget,has a timeless quality about it.
Roger
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I agree - lovely photo.
Thanks guys - I couldn't have done it without you all. ;)
Be prepared to hear from me again!
Andrea
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I don’t know if this has any relevance,but there is a will at NLW for James Cash,Halton,Chirk,1844.
GRO record gives him as 75.
Roger
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The tithe maps also have some fields occupied by a Thomas Cash; close to Black Park/Halton -I think he's one of ours. Not sure about the James. I'll need to delve into my notes. Also will have a read of it. Thanks for the ref.
I researched this line in the old days when the info online was sparce. LDS info on Chirk was very limited so had to get info from Denbighshire Archives and Aberystwyth. I also had help from my local contacts and Clwyd FHS members and booklets.
Gadget
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Not sure that he's one of ours;
Buried 11th January 1844m Chirk I must have looked at him before as it has a tick opposite it. Maybe it was for the young James Parry, who was on the same page.
Also
James Cash bpt 8 April 1769, St Martins. Parents - John (carpenter) and Ester. I assume that's the ref to the land at Rhosweil in the will.
Gadget
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A bit more in my notes:
1762 Edward Cash bpt st Martins s of Richard (carpenter) and Mary
1765 Ann Francis bpt Ruabon d of Thomas and Ann
Richard and Mary also had a son, John, bpt 1759, St Martins. Abode - Rhos y Llan. Daughter, Martha, 1749, daughter Mary 1746, Margaret, 1755, Ann 1758, Thomas 1744, Catherine 1752,
Possible death for Richard, St M, 1808, aged 92 (Ifton, so ties in with Rhos y Llan). Mary - 1784 and 88 but no info.
Just putting it up for ref.