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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: chrisdyer on Monday 19 November 18 14:54 GMT (UK)
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My father said he was in the Merchant Navy 1942 - 1946, but I have just found some papers that say royal Navy. I think he was a rear gunner. I was trying to find what ships he was on. On the sheet I've found it has - "Glendower", "Wellesley" would these be in inverted commas as they were training ships? Then I have President 111; Drake; Drake1V; Drake. I looked on the War record site but could find nothing. Are you able to see where these ships would have sailed & any info on them at all
My granddaughter is doing a project for uni & wanted some information. Do you know how to find what war medals he should have?
Thank you
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If he served in the Royal Navy then his service papers will be with the MOD, not online. How to apply for a copy:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/request-records-of-deceased-service-personnel
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All the "ships" you mention are shore establishments.
Imber
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This may be of interest:
https://davidjbsmith.weebly.com/the-merchant-gunners.html
Imber
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My guess is he served as a Royal Navy DEMS Gunner. DEMS means Defensively Equipped Merchant Ship.
HMS WELLESLEY was an on shore training base for DEMS gunners PRESIDENT III was an on shore accounting establishment. DEMS Gunners would have been attached for purposes of pay.
DRAKE was a RN Barracks at Portsmouth and DRAKE 1V was another on shore accounting establishment. GLENDOWER was a on shore Training Establishment at Pwllheli.
You should take nanny jans advice and apply for his Royal Navy service records. This may take sometime anything up to a year.
Meanwhile can you give us your dads full name, date and place of birth. There is an off chance he has some Merchant Navy record.
DEMS are always difficult to research. They were on the Crew Agreement of the Merchant ships they sailed on, for legal reasons, they are recorded as Deck Hands and paid the nominal sum of a Shilling a day. Usually no records of these merchant ships were kept by the RN. You can however trace DEMS via MN Crew Agreements but it's not an easy task.
Medals. Depends on were he served and when.
Get hold of his RN records. There may be victualling arrangements which may tell you the MN ships he sailed on together with dates and places of engagement and discharge.
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Thank you. He was in the DEMS. His name was John Dyer born in Airdrie, Scotland 29/03/1924
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As expected there are no Merchant Navy records for him online. When you get his Royal Navy records from the MOD. Come back to us.
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All the "ships" you mention are shore establishments.
Imber
Thank you. I have printed the info regarding The Merchant Gunners. Very interesting.
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I have attached a photo of my Dad & comrades sitting round a table - 2 questions
My Dad was Merchant Navy, what is the other uniform in the photo. He paid a lot to have this photo made good so it was obviously important to him.
What was "PET MILK"?
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You wrote "My Dad was Merchant Navy"
Given the information to hand, your Dad served as a Royal Navy DEMS. Most of the persons in the photograph are wearing RN uniform. The guy on the right, in khaki belongs to one of the Royal Artillery Maritime Regiments. You can see a RA badge on his sleeve. DEMS Crew were very often mixed personal from both services.
If you are convinced your Dad served in the Merchant Navy you will need to find his Form CRS10. If it exists.To obtain it a visit to the National Archive at Kew is essential, either by yourself or your daughter or a paid researcher. It could be in one of two references.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10988749
or
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10990531
Form CRS 10 will tell you what ships he served on, together with dates and ports of engagement and discharge.
Could it be your dad served as a Merchant Seaman after demob from the RN?
PET MILK was a brand of Condensed Milk manufactered by an American company.
I have asked poster HMac, an expert on DEMS for his opinion, so watch this space.
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Thank you, will look into a visit to Kew.
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I am away from home at the moment, back Saturday. Seaweed has put you on the right track he was RN D.E.M.S. the photo confirms RN and MRA D.E.M.S. gunners in the mess.
One slight correction DRAKE was the R N barracks in Plymouth.
I will look at this when I get home.
Regards
Hugh
Ps make sure you obtain his Pay and Victualling ledger when applying for his RN records.
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Thank you, that makes sense as to why I can't find the ship!! What about PRESIDENT 111, is that a Barracks as well?
My Dad always said he was Merchant Navy. Did that come under the Royal Navy? Would you join up for the RN & then they put you where they wanted you to go?
Thank you
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PRESIDENT III was a shore establishment that handled the account of the D.E.M.S. as well as others. The Merchant Navy were a civillian service. I wonder if you picked up that he served on Merchant Navy ships rather than in the Merchant Navy. If joining the RN as an Hostilities Only (HO) rating ie for the duration of the war only, he could volunteer for D.E.M.S. service.
Regards
Hugh
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You are brilliant. I was getting so confused with it all. I looked up his marriage certificate & it has RN on it, so I think you're right, he served on Merchant Navy Ships. Would that have been his choice or would the RN just have allocated him where they thought there was a need?
I'm learning all the time. My granddaughter is doing a project for university & asked me for any info I have on my Dad, so I have to get it right!
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See my last edit above. He could volunteer but I would say it would also depend on the RN requirement. Sorry typing on mobile is not great for me. Keep asking questions though happy to advise when I can.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you. I know what you mean about typing on a mobile & predicted text.
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Do you know what this badge is for
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It is the MN lapel badge. Issued to MN personnel to show they were not avoiding the draft. Sadly it did not prevent the white feather from some who were ignorant of a young man in civilian clothing during wartime. The MN lost more men per capita than any of the fighting services.
Regards
Hugh
Looking again it is not the actual badge issued at the time but similar.
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It is the MN lapel badge. Issued to MN personnel to show they were not avoiding the draft. Sadly it did not prevent the white feather from some who were ignorant of a young man in civilian clothing during wartime. The MN lost more men per capita than any of the fighting services.
Regards
Hugh
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I don't understand why my Dad had this on his jacket if he was in the RN working on Merchant ships.
He had it on a jacket that he wore with his D.E.M.S badge on the breast pocket when he went to any parades in London. Just thought, would he have worn it when he was out in civvies during war time?
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I am sure he would have worn it because he was proud to have served alongside the MN. It would not have been lost on him the sacrifices of men and ships at that time. Many D.E.M.S gunners were lost too. Brave men all of them. I think he would have obtained this badge after the war. The original was a little different.
Regards
Hugh