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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: rubymelia on Tuesday 20 November 18 22:57 GMT (UK)
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I have recently discovered my ancestor John Potter (1779-1830) Chester was of black descent. He was married to Frances Fisher (1782-1841) Chester who was of white descent. I am so curious to find more about John's origins but unsure where to look?
Another family member has done the ancestry DNA testing and has discovered that we have Potter relations in the British Virgins Islands, is it a possibility John could have emigrated from there?
Or is there a possibility John could have taken on his name from a slave master ?
Again, I'm so curious to find out more so any help or points in the right direction would be greatly appreciated :)
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Related threads:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.msg6605487#msg6605487
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=802593.msg6605118#msg6605118
I would say that without any clues from your end you are likely to be looking for a needle in a haystack.
If you have DNA Potter cousins in the British Virgin Islands your John or his forebears may have been born there, so have you investigated to see if records were kept at that time? I know virtually nothing of the history of the place and it's peoples so can't help you, but I did read that slaves were brought from Africa to work there, so John's ancestry will probably lead to Africa.
Even though the ethnicity results are not necessarily accurate, did your family member's DNA show any African origins?
FTDNA are doing a half price sale until tomorrow, so you might like to take their Familyfinder test yourself, but you'll have to be quick.
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My transcription from an image of a baptism in the register of/for Garston, St Michael and uploaded to a commercial family history website...
Toxeth Park
John, Son of Jno Potter, Husbandman and Anne, his wife was born Octor 2nd and baptized October 24th 1779.
So it seems that John's parents were likely to be tenant farmers in 1779
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ToxtethPark
nothing to show the baby was born outside of Toxteth Park or its surrounds.... Certainly nothing to show baby was born 'overseas' :)
JM
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Did you contact the author of that article in the Chester Canal Heritage Trust newsletter to find out why he thinks your ancestor John Potter was " a coloured man" ?
http://www.chestercanalheritagetrust.co.uk/Documents/CCHT%20Newsletter%20June%202014.pdf
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Has your family member who took the DNA test contacted the Potter matches who live in the Virgin Islands?
Are they black, descended from black people or know anything about their heritage?
How close is the match between these Potters and your relative?
What is the estimated relationship according to the testing company?
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My transcription from an image of a baptism in the register of/for Garston, St Michael and uploaded to a commercial family history website...
Toxeth Park
John, Son of Jno Potter, Husbandman and Anne, his wife was born Octor 2nd and baptized October 24th 1779.
So it seems that John's parents were likely to be tenant farmers in 1779
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ToxtethPark
nothing to show the baby was born outside of Toxteth Park or its surrounds.... Certainly nothing to show baby was born 'overseas' :)
JM
Could Ann have been the black/'coloured' person rather than the father?
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Toxeth Park
John, Son of Jno Potter, Husbandman and Anne, his wife was born Octor 2nd and baptized October 24th 1779.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ToxtethPark
JM
ruby,
It might be worth looking for other children born to this couple.
I did not bother re-reading your other threads relating to John Potter, but I agree with Shaun that if you haven't already done so, you should make a concerted effort to trace the author of that newsletter article to see where he got the information/quote about John being "coloured". The original source, whatever it was, may contain some more information.
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My transcription from an image of a baptism in the register of/for Garston, St Michael and uploaded to a commercial family history website...
Toxeth Park
John, Son of Jno Potter, Husbandman and Anne, his wife was born Octor 2nd and baptized October 24th 1779.
So it seems that John's parents were likely to be tenant farmers in 1779
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ToxtethPark
nothing to show the baby was born outside of Toxteth Park or its surrounds.... Certainly nothing to show baby was born 'overseas' :)
JM
Is this definitely the baptism of the John Potter in question?
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It might be worth looking for other children born to this couple.
I had a quick look before I posted my message, Ruskie, but couldn't find any. My search wasn't thorough so I support your comment re looking for other children - not just in Lancashire but in the West indies, for e.g. Also, maybe a will for John Potter, snr.
Gadget
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Gadget makes important point re his mum.
Some years ago our local fh group were asked to help find an ancestor who was believed to have non European heritage, due to photo 'proof'. We found the photos ,,,, sepia,,,,, and we found a nee surname .... Blackall. The enquirer then searched through an out building and located the pastoral books and the full names of the employees along with their ships of arrival to the colony of NSW, Australia. This was pre DNA kits advertised as a tool for family historu buffs. I recall that enquirer saying 'Blackall , All Black, slip of tongue '
JM
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Toxeth Park
John, Son of Jno Potter, Husbandman and Anne, his wife was born Octor 2nd and baptized October 24th 1779.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ToxtethPark
JM
ruby,
It might be worth looking for other children born to this couple.
I did not bother re-reading your other threads relating to John Potter, but I agree with Shaun that if you haven't already done so, you should make a concerted effort to trace the author of that newsletter article to see where he got the information/quote about John being "coloured". The original source, whatever it was, may contain some more information.
Hi I managed to get into contact with the author and he supplied me with an amended version of the Chester Chronicle 1824 detailing a feud between John Potter "a black sailor" and their neighbours the James' about racial language towards their children. However the author said he ha not looked any further down the line and didn't intend on doing so either.
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My transcription from an image of a baptism in the register of/for Garston, St Michael and uploaded to a commercial family history website...
Toxeth Park
John, Son of Jno Potter, Husbandman and Anne, his wife was born Octor 2nd and baptized October 24th 1779.
So it seems that John's parents were likely to be tenant farmers in 1779
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/ToxtethPark
nothing to show the baby was born outside of Toxteth Park or its surrounds.... Certainly nothing to show baby was born 'overseas' :)
JM
Could Ann have been the black/'coloured' person rather than the father?
I thought that perhaps however my mum said that she thinks that both of John's parents probably were black as it would have been extremely rare to have a mixed race couple at that time.
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Not sure Jen, but it is the one associated with a public tree that also links the newsletter referred to in this current and earlier threads.
JM
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I thought that perhaps however my mum said that she thinks that both of John's parents probably were black as it would have been extremely rare to have a mixed race couple at that time.
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It seems it was not such an unusual occurrence.;
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/intro/intro.htm
and
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18903391
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Agree with YT - that's why I suggest that it could be the case.
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Hi I managed to get into contact with the author and he supplied me with an amended version of the Chester Chronicle 1824 detailing a feud between John Potter "a black sailor" and their neighbours the James' about racial language towards their children.
I remain very sceptical about this - where is the evidence that this John Potter is your ancestor? The newsletter article quote is "a coloured man" not " a black sailor" so is there some other source?
I have been unable to find the Chester Chronicle report you refer to - what is the precise date please?
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Hi I managed to get into contact with the author and he supplied me with an amended version of the Chester Chronicle 1824 detailing a feud between John Potter "a black sailor" and their neighbours the James' about racial language towards their children.
I will be accused of pedantry, but I'll say it anyway: if John Potter was indeed working on the canals in the 1820's, as detailed in the CCHT article, is it likely that he would be referred to as a 'sailor'?
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Hi I managed to get into contact with the author and he supplied me with an amended version of the Chester Chronicle 1824 detailing a feud between John Potter "a black sailor" and their neighbours the James' about racial language towards their children.
I remain very sceptical about this - where is the evidence that this John Potter is your ancestor? The newsletter article quote is "a coloured man" not " a black sailor" so is there some other source?
I have been unable to find the Chester Chronicle report you refer to - what is the precise date please?
I have attached the document the author of the original article sent me. I too tried to find the 1824 article but failed. All the dates and names of wife etc all match up to mine and their locations.
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Thanks for posting Terry Kavanagh's article. I am becoming more convinced about the "coloured man" description but it looks as though "black sailor" is a term that came from Mr Kavanagh himself.
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Thanks for posting Terry Kavanagh's article. I am becoming more convinced about the "coloured man" description but it looks as though "black sailor" is a term that came from Mr Kavanagh himself.
Yes I agree!
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Have you asked Mr Kavanagh if he would be willing to take a DNA test to see if your family and his match? I expect that John Potter might have been a very common name, and a DNA test would/should confirm. (Once again a reminder than FTDNA have an excellent sale, ending Thursday 22nd)
It seems that Mr Kavanagh is very interested in his family history yet you say he does not intend to pursue John's ancestors .... I wonder why? Family historians are generally like a dog with a bone and I would think that that John being "coloured" would be a lead he would feel compelled to follow .... unless he has tried and not had any success. :-\
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Another digitised image available via a commercial family history website
Liverpool, St Peter
No. 35
John Potter of the Parish of Liverpool, Boatman, and Fanny Fisher of the same Parish, Spinster were married in this Church by Banns this third Day of February in the Year One Thousand eight Hundred and Seven by me, L. Pughe, Curate
This Marriage was solemnized between us, John Potter (he signed) the mark of X Fanny Fisher in the presence of James Taylor and Robert Johnson (likely the local clergy witnesses, they have witnessed several other marriages during that month in that register),
A voting register has an entry for a John Potter, mariner of Brick St, in district 69, in Liverpool in 1806. The image on a page that commences this list reads:
An Alphabetical list of the Freemen
With the names of the candidates
For whom they respectively polled
At the election for the members of parliament,
In LIVERPOOL,
From the 1st to the 8th November 1806
The Figures in the last Column signify the Watchman’s District in which the person lives.
So to me, it seems that the mariner, John Potter, Brick St was in the then watchman’s district of 69. Also I have looked for any males with surname FISHER (as candidates for Fanny's dad, same parish etc) on that roll, there’s plenty, but I cannot see any in that same watchman’s district 69. :-[ :-[ I am not familiar with UK voter rolls searching at such intimate indepth detail, so I apologise if this sighting has nothing to benefit this thread. :) :) I do note that the baptism I posted earlier for 1779, and this marriage I have transcribed here, and this electoral roll entry are all part of that same family history submitted tree I mentioned earlier. And it seems are being copied to other trees...
So I will also mention that it seems possible that the lad born 1779 had a sister, and here is her baptism as per my reading of the parish register for that event:
Garston, St Michael
Toxteth Park,
Ann, Daughter of John Potter, Labourer, and Ann his wife was born 7th November and baptised 9th December 1781.
I am attaching a pdf, newsletter unaltered. NO I cannot, file too large. I will make a separate post after re-doing pdf etc. May be after lunch (11:46 am in NSW Australia ;D )
JM
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as a png file
one page
copyright image removed
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I thought that perhaps however my mum said that she thinks that both of John's parents probably were black as it would have been extremely rare to have a mixed race couple at that time.
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No doubt in terms of % of population it would have been extremely rare, however, I am a mentor for ReadEasy which uses, in their reading scheme, the life story of Olaudah Equiano (also known as Gustavus Vassa). He was an African taken as a child slave. After many years at sea, during which time he saved the pennies he earned barbering for his fellow sailors, he eventually settled ashore and married a white woman.
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I have recently been researching British Colonial Florida & Alabama where one of my husband's line was a merchant/ plantation owner & government official. There are numerous mentions of mixed race partnerships, usually white men with native women. Many of the offspring of these partnerships became wealthy & influential. Maybe your John Potter was the result of a similar liaison
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I thought that perhaps however my mum said that she thinks that both of John's parents probably were black as it would have been extremely rare to have a mixed race couple at that time.
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No doubt in terms of % of population it would have been extremely rare, however, I am a mentor for ReadEasy which uses, in their reading scheme, the life story of Olaudah Equiano (also known as Gustavus Vassa). He was an African taken as a child slave. After many years at sea, during which time he saved the pennies he earned barbering for his fellow sailors, he eventually settled ashore and married a white woman.
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The above quote is from the OP, not me. It is a snippet from my post saying that I do not agree with the quoted idea.
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Apologies if its bad etiquette to resurrect an old thread; I simply stumbled across this post as I'm also a descendant of John Potter.
I haven't been able to find the Chronicle article online anywhere to verify Terry Kavanagh's account, but to me, with all due respect, referring to John Potter as a "black ancestor" is inferring a conclusion from insufficient evidence.
He may have been foreign, though he may have just been a swarthy British person, as there are many John Potters born in Liverpool during this time.
Mrs Potter described her husband as a "coloured man". Although we associate the word coloured with Africans today, the most common terms for Africans during that time were "negars", "blackamoors" and "Negroes" (no offence intended).
My personal theory is it is most likely he was a dark British fellow, bit like this:
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BTW, Potter is also a Romany Gypsy occupation, as they travelled up and down the country selling earthenware pots. John Potter may have been a Romany gypsy. I've heard 'potter' is a bit like 'tinker' in being an old term for Travellers.
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To give a little update to my research, I have been looking through the British Colonial Slave registers but they are 1813-34 , which is too late for our John Potter. However, there were several slaves called John Potter in Jamaica during that time period.
I couldn't find any record of a John Potter in the records for Alien Arrivals to Liverpool between 1790 and 1807.
Also, someone has posted an image of Louisa Potter (daughter of John Potter) on Ancestry.com . Its hard to tell much from the picture as it is not in colour but Louisa was clearly not what we would call "half-caste", meaning John Potter was not a full-blooded Sub Saharan African.
A few months ago I was in contact with a female direct descendant of John Potter and she has said her brother is going to get a DNA test which will tell us what YDNA haplogroup John Potter belonged to, which will be very informative.
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This is Louisa Hughes nee Potter, daughter of John Potter, courtesy of an Ancestry user. Not seeing any evidence of John being coloured, let alone black here but I'm keeping an open mind and continuing to search.