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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey => England => Surrey Lookup Requests => Topic started by: condesa on Wednesday 21 November 18 11:43 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I’m trying to trace the parents, siblings and children of Charles William Chapman born about 1880.
He married Mary Ann Rhoads on 4 October 1902 at St Augustine’s Church, Croydon, Surrey. Charles’s father was recorded as James Chapman, an artist. Charles gave his address as 45 Churchill Road, Croydon
I can’t find any census records for Charles and Mary Ann or Charles and his father James to give me clues.
The only child I know about is Charles Thomas Edward Chapman (known as Tom) who was born in Ramsgate on 23 March 1914. I have his birth certificate. I know he had siblings but not any of their names. His parents were living in Chapel Road, Ramsgate at that time.
Any help with the Chapmans would be greatly appreciated.
Susan
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Think Mary Ann is listed as RHOADES, there are various birth listed between 1902-1910 with mother's maiden name of Rhoades, if so they moved around quite a bit,
Northampton/Newhaven/Rochford/Coventry and Eastbourne
I can only think there is more than one marriage Chapman to Rhoades
Louisa Maud
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How old was Mary Ann upon marriage and her father's name
Louisa Maud
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What was Charles’ occupation on the 1902 marriage certificate & the 1914 birth certificate?
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A possible from the GRO?
CHAPMAN, CHARLES WILLIAM CHRISTOPHER mmn STRANGE
GRO Reference: 1879
M Quarter
CROYDON
Volume 02A Page 207
ADDED: Ignore that his father was Charles William Chapman.
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A possible from the GRO?
CHAPMAN, CHARLES WILLIAM CHRISTOPHER mmn STRANGE
GRO Reference: 1879
M Quarter
CROYDON
Volume 02A Page 207
Not this one, I think - his father is Charles William Chapman, a draper, and CWC Chapman is still unmarried in the last census.
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Charles's occupation on marriage is bricklayer, age 22
Mary Ann Rhoades cook , 19 , of Woodcote , Marlborough Road , father William , bricklayer.
Marriage transcribed as Rhoade/Chapman.
1901 for Mary Ann Rhoades
RG13; Piece: 637; Folio: 18; Page: 28
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These two children appear to belong:
CHAPMAN, CHARLES WILLIAM
Mmmn RHOADES
GRO Reference: 1903 S Quarter in NORTHAMPTON Volume 03B Page 64
Baptism Date: 25 Aug 1903
Baptism Place: Northampton, St Edmund
Son of Charles William and Mary Ann
Bricklayer of 96 Market Street
CHAPMAN, ELLEN
Mmn RHOADES
GRO Reference: 1909 J Quarter in COVENTRY Volume 06D Page 573
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1909
Baptism Date: 4 Apr 1909
Baptism Place: Mitcham, Christ Church, Surrey
Daughter of Charles William and Mary Ann
Builder and contractor of 6 Oxford Terrace, Devonshire Rd
Debra :)
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If you are using Ancestry they are under CHARMAN in 1911 at Eastbourne.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BV-YSD
Debra :)
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If you are using Ancestry they are under CHARMAN in 1911 at Eastbourne.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7BV-YSD
Born in Bombay!
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Odd that Charles in 22 on marriage in 1902, and 38 by 1911 ???
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They have altered the number of years married to accommodate 'May' who is aged 12 and probably not born in Eastbourne. She is not in the RHOADES household in 1901.
Debra :)
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Am I right in thinking Mary Ann Rhoades was 15 on 1901? wrong, sorry
It also appears unless I am mistaken that most of the siblings were born away from areas shown on 1911
Louisa Maud
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Hi
I had dismissed Charles William Christopher Chapman as my Charles William's father was James Chapman - artist. A pretty unusual occupation in 1902 I thought.
According to the marriage certificate Charles was aged 22 and a bricklayer.
Mary Ann was actually aged 17 (she was born on 20/9/1885) and not 19 as recorded on the marriage certificate and a cook. When their son Charles Thomas Edward was born in 1914, Charles was a builder's foreman.
Mary Ann's father was William Rhoads (also spelt Rhoades/Rhodes). I'm ok with the Rhoads family.
I would be very surprised if Charles was born in Bombay. What was the father's name?
Thanks
Susan
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One more clue?
For some strange reason when son Charles Thomas Edward Chapman married in 1943 he gave his father's name as Albert Charles Chapman and occupation as master builder. I assume he was still alive in 1943 as CTE Chapman's bride's father was recorded as deceased.
Susan
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Has CTE Chapman been found in the 1939 Register, in case he was with his parents?
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Also, who were the witnesses to the 1943 marriage?
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I do wonder if May was a child of Charles and not Miss Rhoades, he was at least 10years older upon marriage, was he a bachelor on his marriage cert?
Louisa Maud
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I haven't found CTE on the 1939 Register. He was in the army at the time, having joined up in 1932 aged 18. He didn't leave the army until after WWII.
We might be on the right track with the family moving around the country, as Charles progressed from bricklayer to builder's foreman and finally master builder. My husband now recalls a story his father CTE told of the family travelling around in a horse drawn pantechnicon.
Witnesses to Charles and Mary Ann's marriage were William Rhoads and Harry James Hollands.. Charles was a bachelor and only 5 years older than Mary Ann.
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Father is on 1939
Louisa Maud
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Father is on 1939
Louisa Maud
Can you give us a clue from the free index info?
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Well - this fits, in some areas
1901 - 73 Trant [?] Road Croydon
John H Chapman 60 - retired civil engineer, b Herstmonceaux
Alice Chapman 46 - b dublin
Alice L Chapman 25 - b India
John H Chapman 20 b India
William J Chapman 22 b India
Charles Chapman 19 b India, apprentice Croydon School Board
Ernest A Chapman 15 b Tunbridge Wells
Frank Chapman 12 - b South Norwood
[father is a retired army officer in 1891)
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Tracing the Chapman/Rhoades children:
May??
Charles William Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Sep qtr 1903 Northampton (d Dec qtr 1906 Rochford aged 3)
William Henry Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Mar qtr 1905 Newhaven
Daisy Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Jun qtr 1906 Rochford
Mary Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1908 Coventry
Ellen Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1909 Coventry - “Nellie” in 1911
Lily Louisa Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Dec qtr 1910 Eastbourne
Albert Charles Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1913 Rochford
Charles Thomas Edward Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1914 Thanet
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Wonder why on census they were shown as born Eastbourne?
Louisa Maud
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Picked out Frank born Norwood 1889, (Croydon) to check MMN shows POLLOTT
Louisa Maud
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Well - this fits, in some areas
1901 - 73 Trant [?] Road Croydon
John H Chapman 60 - retired civil engineer, b Herstmonceaux
Alice Chapman 46 - b dublin
Alice L Chapman 25 - b India
John H Chapman 20 b India
William J Chapman 22 b India
Charles Chapman 19 b India, apprentice Croydon School Board <<<
Ernest A Chapman 15 b Tunbridge Wells
Frank Chapman 12 - b South Norwood
[father is a retired army officer in 1891)
Perhaps this is the corresponding baptism?
Presbyterian Church, Saharanpur, U.P., India
24 September 1883
Charles Chapman, born 18 August 1883.
Parents: John Henry Chapman (engineer in public works dept) & Allie.
Certified by a register extract taken on 30 May 1939.
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Well - this fits, in some areas
1901 - 73 Trant [?] Road Croydon
That's probably Frant Road.
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Well - this fits, in some areas
1901 - 73 Trant [?] Road Croydon
John H Chapman 60 - retired civil engineer, b Herstmonceaux
Alice Chapman 46 - b dublin
Alice L Chapman 25 - b India
John H Chapman 20 b India
William J Chapman 22 b India
Charles Chapman 19 b India, apprentice Croydon School Board
Ernest A Chapman 15 b Tunbridge Wells
Frank Chapman 12 - b South Norwood
[father is a retired army officer in 1891)
I think this Charles is the school teacher who can be found in Yorkshire in 1911 and 1939. The birth date is correct for the record in India.
Debra :)
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Tracing the Chapman/Rhoades children:
May??
Charles William Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Sep qtr 1903 Northampton (d Dec qtr 1906 Rochford aged 3)
William Henry Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Mar qtr 1905 Newhaven
Daisy Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Jun qtr 1906 Rochford
Mary Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1908 Coventry
Ellen Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1909 Coventry - “Nellie” in 1911
Lily Louisa Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Dec qtr 1910 Eastbourne
Albert Charles Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1913 Rochford
Charles Thomas Edward Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1914 Thanet
Further details on some of the children:
William Henry was born 26.12.04, according to a 1913 Croydon school record. Home was 56 Cross Rd when he was admitted on 2 June 1913 (prev school Prettewell, Southend); father Charles W.
William Henry left the Croydon school on 28 October 1913 - “left district”.
Ellen’s birthdate was 7 March 1909, according to her 4 April 1909 baptism record (in Mitcham).
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Tracing the Chapman/Rhoades children:
May??
Charles William Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Sep qtr 1903 Northampton (d Dec qtr 1906 Rochford aged 3)
William Henry Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Mar qtr 1905 Newhaven
Daisy Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Jun qtr 1906 Rochford
Mary Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1908 Coventry
Ellen Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1909 Coventry - “Nellie” in 1911
Lily Louisa Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Dec qtr 1910 Eastbourne
Albert Charles Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1913 Rochford
Charles Thomas Edward Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1914 Thanet
Further details on some of the children:
William Henry was born 26 December 1904, according to a 1913 Croydon school record. Home was 56 Cross Rd when he was admitted on 2 June 1913 (prev school Prettewell, Southend); father Charles W. William Henry left the Croydon school on 28 October 1913 - “left district”.
Ellen’s birthdate was 7 March 1909, according to her 4 April 1909 baptism record (in Mitcham).
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William Henry’s birthdate of 26 December 1904 matches with a death in Worthing in 1985.
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I do believe John H born Sussex circa 1833 is on 1841, 1851 he is aged 18 and a farm labourer.
Don't know where May comes from
Louisa Maud
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Mary Ann was actually aged 17 (she was born on 20/9/1885) and not 19 as recorded on the marriage certificate and a cook. When their son Charles Thomas Edward was born in 1914, Charles was a builder's foreman.
Put that d-o-b into 1939 free index and get
Maryann Chapman, b 20.9.85, in Worthing, Sussex.
Her husband possibly looks interesting? But can't give full details
In free index is Albert C Chapman, born 1872, Worthing R.D.
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One more clue?
For some strange reason when son Charles Thomas Edward Chapman married in 1943 he gave his father's name as Albert Charles Chapman and occupation as master builder. I assume he was still alive in 1943 as CTE Chapman's bride's father was recorded as deceased.
Susan
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Yes I wondered about a change/tweak of name - I asked earlier who were the witnesses to the 1943 marriage of CTE Chapman in case he was one of them, but I don’t think we know that yet.
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If he was born in June 1872 that would be consistent with his age of 38 in the 1911 free index.
It would mean he significantly understated his age on marriage. Was he also untruthful about his name and other details - and if so why? Another wife somewhere, perhaps?
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There is a James W CHAPMAN in 1891 and 1901 who I think may be Charles' father but there are a few odd bits ;D
1891 at St Pancras with wife Eleanor and children, including Charles who is aged 11. James is a glass painter and there is a vaccination record for Charles James and his twin Alice which gives James' occupation as Artist in Glass.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:35RD-FZM
Class: RG12; Piece: 129; Folio: 61; Page: 4
In 1901 James and Eleanor also have a granddaughter with them, May CHAPMAN, who is aged 1 and born in Newhaven, Sussex. They are living in Croydon.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9XK-QS6
Class: RG13; Piece: 635; Folio: 42; Page: 6
The ages are a bit all over the place and probably incorrect.
I looked for a marriage for May and found a May Elizabeth CHAPMAN, aged 27, father Charles William CHAPMAN, a builder. She married in 1927 at Greenwich to Leslie Lindsay NIGHTINGALE. Her date of birth in 1939 led me to this birth record:
CHAPMAN, MAY ELIZABETH
Mmn: WINDLE
GRO Reference: 1899 S Quarter in LEWES Volume 02B Page 182
I can't see any other CHAPMAN/WINDLE births or a marriage.
That is it so far :D
Debra :)
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Very interesting, Debra :)
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There is this marriage possibility
Sep 1898 Lewes 2b 341
Chapman, Charles William
Winder, Elizabeth
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There is an Elizabeth Chapman death in Lewes in 1900 aged 21, possibly associated with the birth and death of a baby Elizabeth.
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Oh, I didn't see that one!!
Eleanor is not the mother of the children. She married James in 1890 as a 48 year old spinster, Eleanor Le PAGE. James was a 39 year old widower and his first wife was Alice Hargate Madaline KNOWLES, married in 1877 at Marylebone.
Debra :)
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Mary Ann was actually aged 17 (she was born on 20/9/1885) and not 19 as recorded on the marriage certificate and a cook. When their son Charles Thomas Edward was born in 1914, Charles was a builder's foreman.
Put that d-o-b into 1939 free index and get
Maryann Chapman, b 20.9.85, in Worthing, Sussex.
Her husband possibly looks interesting? But can't give full details
In free index is Albert C Chapman, born 1872, Worthing R.D.
This is really bothersome, I wonder if the family were innumerate? You would think a builder would have to know his sums.
Debra :)
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It's particularly odd because, if we have the same person through the various records, he lurches between born c1872 (per 1911, 1939) and born c1880 (per 1891 & the 1902 marriage) without much in between - which makes it seem deliberate rather than an error.
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The exact birthdate for Charles James Chapman (found by Debra) and his twin Alice Hargate Madeline Chapman was 7 June 1880, per that vaccination list.
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There is an Elizabeth Chapman death in Lewes in 1900 aged 21, possibly associated with the birth and death of a baby Elizabeth.
The baby Elizabeth Chapman b & d Lewes Dec qtr 1900 had mother's maiden name Winder, so it does look possible that the Elizabeth Chapman who died then aged 21 was Charles's wife, and mother of both May and Elizabeth.
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Tracing the Chapman/Rhoades children:
May??
Charles William Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Sep qtr 1903 Northampton (d Dec qtr 1906 Rochford aged 3)
William Henry Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Mar qtr 1905 Newhaven
Daisy Chapman, mmn Rhoades, Jun qtr 1906 Rochford
Mary Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1908 Coventry
Ellen Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1909 Coventry - “Nellie” in 1911
Lily Louisa Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Dec qtr 1910 Eastbourne
Albert Charles Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Mar qtr 1913 Rochford
Charles Thomas Edward Chapman, mmn Rhoades, b Jun qtr 1914 Thanet
Possible marriage for Daisy having a crack at ALL the names!
Daisy CHAPMAN
Gender: Female
Marital Status: Single
Marriage Date: 7 Nov 1927
Marriage Place: Little Baddow, Essex, England
Father: Albert Charles William CHAPMAN
Spouse: William GOODE
FHL Film Number: 001471808
Debra :)
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Baptism of 3 chapman babies
St Pancras Camden
17/05/1886
Charles James born 07/06/1880
Alice Hargate Madelaine 07/06/1880
John Joseph 14/02/1882
parents James William and Alice Hargate Madelaine Chapman
of 23 Charrington Street
occ of father artist in glass
Louisa Maud
Apologies if this has been mentioned to many go check through now
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Although the baptisms show father James William Chapman the marriage
25/2/1877 shows
William James Chapman Glass painter, father Joseph William Artist
to
Alice Hargate Madelaine Knowles, a minor(birth registered 1860 St Pancras) father John Knowles Tailor
Witnesses John Knowles and Elizabeth Le Page
Alice H M died 1866 Pancras ages 26
Louisa Maud
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The exact birthdate for Charles James Chapman (found by Debra) and his twin Alice Hargate Madeline Chapman was 7 June 1880, per that vaccination list.
Starting to shift..
School records for Charles and Alice Chapman
Great College Street School Boys/Girls
admitted 20 May/24 June 1889
Father James William/James W
both born 10.6.80
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Well, it's all very interesting but complicated and confusing.
The witnesses to CTE's marriage in 1943 were DI (Doris) Thomas (bride's sister) and L de Vissey (army colleague). This information doesn't offer any clues.
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Charles married as Charles William Chapman in 1902, is Charles in 1911 BUT when his son Charles marries he gives his father as Albert Charles - in 1939, as already mentioned, Mary Ann (birth date of 20/9/1885 correct with her birth) is with Albert Charles so sometime between 1911 he changed his name. I think the ca.1880 birthdate he gave when he married is incorrect taking into account that in 1911 states bc.1873 and in 1939 is 1872. One has to wonder what name is his death recorded as.
Wherever he was born, and whatever name he was born under, I think that ca.1872 is likely to be more accurate than a ca.1880 birthdate.
Annette
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The trouble is that Debra makes a convincing case for “May” from the 1911 census being a daughter of the Charles James Chapman who was born in June 1880.
Details of the Chapman/Winder marriage (Lewes 1898) would be interesting.
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"I had dismissed Charles William Christopher Chapman as my Charles William's father was James Chapman - artist. A pretty unusual occupation in 1902 I thought."
Baptisms 1886 and marriage 1877 show artists within the family, so this must be the right family I am assuming
James William artist in Glass and Joseph William artist
Louisa Maud
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Yes, the Chapman family found by Debra links so many things:
- Charles, son of James, an artist (who also had a daughter Daisy - a name which comes up again)
- Croydon (where they are in 1901)
- May, of the right age, and whose birth details correspond to a Charles William Chapman marriage
- Newhaven - May’s birthplace, but also the location of a 1905 Chapman/Rhoades birth
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Going back to
James William and Alice Knowles, there are 2 more baptisms found
St Pancras Camden
12/04/1886
Daisy Kate born 22/03/1886
James William 10/04/1884
same info and address as at previous baptism of twins and John Joseph
I cannot find this family on 1881 unless someone else has and I have missed it, so poor Alice, married at 17 had at least 5 births before she died aged 26
Louisa Maud
Louisa Maud
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So, it looks as if Charles added Albert to his name as his name is also recorded Albert Charles William when Daisy married in 1927. I can't find a death for Albert Charles with a date/age corresponding with either 1872 or 1880.
The address he gave at his 1902 marriage was 45 Churchill Road, Croydon. Is anyone able to look up this address in the 1901 census and see who was living there then? That might give us another clue.
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1901 census: RG13/637/177/11
45 Churchill Rd, Croydon
William Andrews 25 Straw packer London City
Lily B do wife 20 Wandsworth
William G.J. do son 1 Croydon
Daisy Pollard niece 11 Wandsworth
Lily Pollard niece 7 Walthamstow
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Thanks. That at least eliminates that idea.
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There is an Elizabeth Chapman death in Lewes in 1900 aged 21, possibly associated with the birth and death of a baby Elizabeth.
Possible birth reg to tie in with that
Dec 1879 Lewes 2b 200
Winder, Elizabeth
mother Earl
Baptism at Newhaven, 1 Feb 1880
Elizabeth
parents William Henry + Mary Winder
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6LNW-B42
The family in 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q274-SWK4
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Going back to
James William and Alice Knowles, there are 2 more baptisms found
St Pancras Camden
12/04/1886
Daisy Kate born 22/03/1886
James William 10/04/1884
same info and address as at previous baptism of twins and John Joseph
I cannot find this family on 1881 unless someone else has and I have missed it, so poor Alice, married at 17 had at least 5 births before she died aged 26
Louisa Maud
James and Alice in 1881 at St Pancras with Nelly and the twins.
Class: RG11; Piece: 199; Folio: 31; Page: 17
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-R2ZL
Debra :)
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Thank you Dundee, I did find it last night
Louisa Maud
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Another marriage:
Albert Charles (son) married Dorothy Dorrington Dec qtr Brighton 1933. They had a son Maurice Frederick registered Dec qtr Stepney 1934 who was christened in Essex 30/12/1934
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLGB-SZJG
Not found anything else yet.
Susan
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For all of you who have been trying to help me, it looks like the Winder connection is right. According to the marriage certificate, Charles William married Elizabeth Winder 16/7/1898 in Newhaven. They were both aged 19. Charles father - James Chapman, artist. Eizabeth's father - William Henry Winder, Goods foreman (deceased). Witnesses were William Henry Winder and Alice Chapman. I will follow up now on Elizabeth's death and the birth and death of the baby Elizabeth.
Assuming Alice was Charles's sister, it is looking likely his parents were James William and Alice Hargate Madaline Knowles.
Thank you all.
So, Maryann Rhoads was Charles second wife. I'm still trying to find death records for Charles and Maryann.
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OK, so to summarise: he was born Charles James Chapman in June 1880 (St Pancras)
Married (1) as Charles William Chapman, Jul 1898 Newhaven to Elizabeth Winder (she d.1900)
Married (2) as Charles William Chapman, Oct 1902 Croydon to Mary Ann Rhoads
In 1927 he’s named as Albert Charles William Chapman, on daughter Daisy’s marriage.
By 1939 they’re in Worthing as Albert Charles & Mary Ann Chapman. Deaths not yet found.