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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Shiny1 on Wednesday 21 November 18 13:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I've started to research my GG Uncle, William Issac Carruthers but am struggling a bit.
I've found a newspaper report in the Journal from August 1917:
Mrs Carruthers, 35 Noble Street, Newcastle has been informed that her husband, Pte W Carruthers has been gassed and severely wounded and is in hospital in Netley. He is a son of Mrs Carruthers, 161 Meldon Street, Newcastle.
I've found he was in the Northumberland Fusiliers and that at some point he moved to the KOYLI and was discharged because of being gassed, I'm now looking at his home life.
I think he was married to Mary Jane HALL in Q4 1915 somewhere in Newcastle but the only 1939 register I can find that looks like him has his wife named as Margaret. I think he died in Hexham in 1952.
Can anyone help tell me anything more about him?
Thanks a lot,
Michael
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From Free BMD.
Marriage. William I Carruthers/Margaret I Robson. Hexham Sep 1922.
The death of a William Isaac Carruthers, age 45, (b 1893), was registered in Durham North Western in Dec Q 1938. I wonder when the 1939 register was actually compiled.
I think the 1952 death (age 75), may be William Isaac Carruthers, born 1877, Penrith district
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Looks to me that he married Sarah CHARLTON 1904 and Margaret I ROBSON 1922 Hexham.
Death Reg 1920 Hexham, Sarah CARRUTHERS age 40
Trish :)
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Ooops mucked that up, ignore 1904 Marriage but that was a William Isaac Carruthers
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I think he died in Hexham in 1952.
I can only see one William I Carruthers death in Northumberland in 1952, and he was aged 75, so born c. 1877 rather than 1893 :-\
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Thanks a lot for the help everyone, so basically everything I thought I knew about him is wrong :-\
He was really difficult to trace on the military side as well, maybe it's time to start from scratch with him.
Thanks again,
Michael
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The death of a William Isaac Carruthers, age 45, (b 1893), was registered in Durham North Western in Dec Q 1938. I wonder when the 1939 register was actually compiled.
29 September 1939.
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the only 1939 register I can find that looks like him has his wife named as Margaret. I think he died in Hexham in 1952.
A couple of points:
The one you refer to in 1939 is entered as William Carruthers (i.e. no middle initial).
A bit of fiddling on the free index to the 1939 reveals that the one you have identified was born in March of that year. However the birth of your William Isaac was registered in the Oct/Nov/December quarter of 1893. Of course there is always the possibility of a late registration.
My feeling is that the person you've identified in 1939 isn't your man :(
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Thanks Jen, I think you're right.
I know the start point is right and that I have the right soldier, it's everything else I've got wrong.
Michael
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Electoral rolls for the 1920s have a William Isaac Carruthers living in Meldon Street - many have a Jennie Carruthers also in the household.
William
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From 1931 to 1935 William Isaac and Mary Jane Carruthers are at 118 Meldon Street, not there in 1836. Coincidentally my wifes grandparents are next door at 120 in that time, her father was born there in 1934. Her grandmothers sister and family were at number 116 so the Carruthers family were sandwiched in between the two.
Alan.
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I note that an Elizabeth Hall is also recorded at 118 Meldon Street in the 1932 register of electors.
William
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Thanks once again for the help everyone.
Alan, wow! What's the chances of that, our relatives were probably friends.
I've re-read all of the posts and to be honest I keep going round in circles, William is just really confusing, so I've tried to start from scratch based on what I know for fact. Please double check and feel free to tell me I'm wrong.
William is single and living at 163 Meldon Street in Newcastle on the 1911 census and then the newspaper in 1917 talks about his wife getting the news, again in Newcastle, therefore we are looking for a marriage between 1911 and 1917.
I've looked on Family Search and the only Newcastle wedding I can see for anyone called William I Carruthers between those dates is to Mary J Hall in Q4 1915.
There is a marriage between William Carruthers and Jane Adams in Q2 1915 in Gateshead so that is also a possible.
Having searched the 1911 census there is a Mary Jane Hall born 1885 who is single and living in Elswick and who's mother is called Elizabeth, could this be her?
I think I may have to look in Newcastle library and see if I can find a register with their parents names on to confirm if this is right or not.
What does everyone think?
Michael
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There is a marriage between William Carruthers and Jane Adams in Q2 1915 in Gateshead so that is also a possible.
Michael
There's a family tree (a bit sketchy) an Ancestry which suggests this William was b c1885 so quite possibly not yours. A number of children are identified.
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Thanks Mabel, I'm fairly sure mine was born in 1893 so that may rule this wedding out.
Thanks for checking.
I really appreciate all the help I've had with this.
Michael
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Hi All,
I've kept digging at this and have found a few new bits which I've tied with some of the information people here have given me.
I now ave his military pension card which gives his discharge address as 35 North Street, that may be the same address as the newspaper article from 1917 which was very faded so not Noble Street at all.
The card has a second address of 161 Meldon Street (his mothers address) which according to the Newcastle Electors Roll is where he was in 1919. Frustraitingly there is not one that I can see for 1918.
Finally his pension card has 161 crossed out and the number 30 written under that.
As William and Alan pointed out according to the Newcastle Electors rolls he lived at number 30 Meldon Street from 1920 until 1929 and in 1926 the name Jennie appears on the register along with the letters HO meaning Husband's Occupation implying they are married.
In 1930 he moved to 118 Meldon Street and stayed there until 1935 along with Mary Jane who had the letters DW next to her again meaning Husband's Occupation, again implying they are married.
Finally the card has a date written right across the front in red pencil which appears to be 24/5/34 but could equally be 24/8/38 and what appears to be the word deceased above it, again it's difficult to read.
As Brentor Boy pointed out there is a death registered in Q4 1938 in Durham which could fit.
So, here's what I'm wondering:
Could he have married Mary Jane Hall in 1915 and lived in North Street. When he left the army they have split up and he's moved home with his mother.
In 1920 he has married Jennie and moved into 30 Meldon Street.
They have split in 1929 and he's then either got back together with the original Mary Jane or married a third person who happens to also be called Mary Jane.
There's always the possibility that they never actually divorced and he and Jennie were never actually married?
Finally could it be that in 1935 he has become to ill to be at home and has gone into a nursing home in Durhan where he died in late 1938.
What do we think? A touch of Grimms Fairy Tales or a possible explanation?
Thanks a lot for all the help,
Michael
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I wonder if you are over-complicating the marriage situation :-\
Mary Jane might have been familiarly known as Jennie and appeared as such on the Electoral register.
Is there any evidence of a marriage to a 'Jennie'?
As you know Jennie is a common 'pet' name for Jane. My aunt was Edith Jane, but always known as Jennie in the family.
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Hi Jen,
I like the sound of that and hadn't realised Jane and Jennie could be one and the same person, thank you very much.
Michael
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Finally could it be that in 1935 he has become to ill to be at home and has gone into a nursing home in Durham where he died in late 1938.
The fact that the death took place in County Durham doesn't necessarily mean that he was living there. It's simply where the death took place. For instance, he might have been working somewhere in that area https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/durham%20north%20western.html - it wasn't too far from Elswick, where Meldon Street was situated.
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Late to the thread (been busy) but had a look. Get a flask and some sandwiches, this goes on a bit!
I went back to basics, you seem to be sure that the man you are looking for was born in 1893, but his marriage and death are yet to be confirmed.
So I looked at births on the GRO site, to hopefully find some siblings names to help with looking in the census returns
1893 William Isaac CARRUTHERS, mmn BAGG, Q4 Newcastle upon TYne, 10b 63
Looks possible :-)
I found two other births with the same surname and MMN:
1890 Mary A CARRUTHERS, mmn BAGG, Q1 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 27
1891 James Robert CARRUTHERS, mmn BAGG, Q3 Gateshead 10a 921
Try as I might, I am unable to find a marriage for a Carruthers and a Bagg - but more of that later.
Looked for Mary Ann in 1891 and this census looks likely:
Piece 4178, folio 35, page 19
39 Leopold St, Gateshead
James Carruthers , Head, 21, married, General Labourer, born Gateshead
Mary A , wife, 18, married, born Newcastle
Mary A , daughter, 15 (?) months, born Newcastle
1901 census 71 George St, Westgate, Newcastle
Piece 4767, folio 229, page 19
James Carruthers, head, 32, married, Blacksmith Striker, born Gateshead
Mary A, wife, 28, married, born Newcastle
Mary A, daughter, single, 11, born Newcastle
James R, son, single, 9, born Gateshead
William, son, single, 7, born Newcastle
so far so good but then it gets complicated :-(
the others in the house in 1901 are
Ellen, daughter, single, 3, born Newcastle
Louisa, daughter, single, born Newcastle
and those two are coming up in the GRO as having mmn of BARBER, not BAGG
and though I can't find a Carruthers- Bagg marriage there IS a likely Carruthers-Barber marriage
Q4 1889, Newcastle T, Mary Ann Barber and James Carruthers
James wife's age and birth place are consistent on the 1891 and 1901 census and I believe it is the same person rather than a re-marriage for James. I looked for a GRO birth and there was a Mary Ann Barber born Q1 1873 Newcastle, no mmn so likely to be illegitimate, and a likely marriage between a Robert BAGG and a Mary 'Jane' Barber in Q1 1875, Newcastle
They are on the census in 1881 at South Terrace, Westoe, Piece 5012, folio 106, page 42
Robert Bagg, head, married, 43, mariner, born Ireland
Mary 'Ann', wife, married, 28, born Alnwick (middle name is different to the Jane on the marriage)
Mary Ann, daughter, 8 born Newcastle
Ellen Race Bagg, daughter, 3, born Newcastle (GRO gives her mmn as Barber)
So that maybe explains the 'flexible' MMN for the Carruthers children? All depends on who registered the births and how much they knew about the mother's actual parentage?
and the good news is that, though I can't post details, if you look for this Carruthers family in 1911 they very helpfully included middle names on the census return for both of their sons.
Doesn't get you any further forward to his marriage or his death but if you do get the marriage entry it may help to confirm its the right one?
Boo
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Why do I 'always' forget a bit?
I checked the electoral rolls and in 1914 a James Carruthers was registered to vote at 161 Meldon Street which was the address for William Isaac's Mam in the 1917 newspaper item. No middle name so its more likely to be his Dad rather than William's brother James Robert.
Boo
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Hi Boo,
Thank you very much for the help. Mary Ann Carruthers is my Greatgrandmother and I think the whole family has been a bit of a mystery and elusive. I wonder if it's because of the illigitimate births and they have tried to hide the fact?
So Mary Ann married James Carruthers using the name Bagg (her mother's 'married' name) and Barber (her birth name) when registering her children's birth.
I wonder if there is a similar story for Mary Jane Hall as I can't find any trace of her other than the entry on the marriage BMD.
Michael
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I note that an Elizabeth Hall is also recorded at 118 Meldon Street in the 1932 register of electors.
William
I've looked either side of that entry and Elizabeth Hall is living there from 1931 to the latest record I can find in 1935. I'll have to go to the library again and see if they have registers for 1936 onwards.
Michael
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So Mary Ann married James Carruthers using the name Bagg (her mother's 'married' name) and Barber (her birth name) when registering her children's birth.
Michael
No. Mary Ann's married to James Carruthers used the surname BARBER (her mother's maiden name and the name in which Mary Ann's birth was registered)
James and Mary Ann's first 3 children were registered with a MMN of BAGG (her mother's married name) then their later children were registered using a MMN of BARBER.
I am not sure that she was trying to hide anything - if that was the case she'd have used BAGG at her marriage, its more likely to be a case of either whoever registered the first births wasn't aware of the circumstances?
Boo
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I note that an Elizabeth Hall is also recorded at 118 Meldon Street in the 1932 register of electors.
William
I've looked either side of that entry and Elizabeth Hall is living there from 1931 to the latest record I can find in 1935. I'll have to go to the library again and see if they have registers for 1936 onwards.
Michael
1936 electoral roll 118 Meldon St., Elswick has an Ernest May Fothergill and a Dora Lilian Fothergill. No one else registered to vote at that address.
Boo
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The death of a William Isaac Carruthers, age 45, (b 1893), was registered in Durham North Western in Dec Q 1938.
Thanks Boo,
So that means they must have moved somewhere which explains his death being registered as above.
Michael
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Hi Michael
I think I could check the Elswick burial records for you either this week or next week for William - depending on which day I can make the library on time after work. :)
Added: I have just realised he likely won't be there on account of possibly having moved area. Sorry, I added first part of this post when in a bit of a mad dash.
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Just to add into the thread, James Robert Carruthers (older brother of William Isaac) was killed in action in September 1917. His CWGC record gives his parents as James and Mary A Carruthers of 161 Meldon Street, Newcastle on Tyne.
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1628168/carruthers,-james-robert/
Boo
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Thanks for the help again both of you.
RTL, you have already spotted what I was going to tell you but thanks for the offer.
Boo, I visited Tyne Cot last year with my wife and found his name, it a very moving place.
Michael
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James Carruthers marriage appears to be at St Matthew in 1889:
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1889&qtr=4&vol=10b&page=161&search=search
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Thanks very much RTL, I'll update my records.
Michael
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Michael, according to the user guide https://twarchives.org.uk/collection/user-guides-and-information
Those records are on microfilm at TWAS.
Boo
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Thanks a lot Boo
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This may be total coincidence and completely unrelated but if you look for children of William and Mary on free BMD there are two possible, Vera (b.1920) and Lilian (b.1924) both born in Newcastle.
The 1939 register has a Vera Carruthers (b.1916) living in Hexham with a Thomas C Carruthers (b.1887) together with Jean Carruthers (b.1918) and William I Carruthers (b.1926). He is married, all of the others are single.
I know William had an uncle Thomas but I had him as Thomas L and born 1878, but I haven't researched him at all so it may be I've misread the census when I first looked at it.
As I say it could be pure coincidence because the dates of birth are all wrong but it could be Williams kids living with their uncle because everyone else has died, or it could be a relative who just happened to have kids with the same names, or it might be completely unconnected.
I'll keep looking.
Michael
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Free BMD
Q3 1916
Carruthers, Vera, mmn Wharton, Hexham
looks likely to be the girl on the 1939 register?
Boo
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Thanks Boo, so not her then.
It was worth a shot.
Michael
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When my next rota comes out I will see where I can fit a trip in to the archives and I will look up the 1889 marriage in full for you and I will make some attempt to find the 1915 marriage looking at the closest Churches.
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Hello Shiny1, I just came across this thread while searching for information on my grandfather, who I believe is the William Isaac Carruthers born in 1893 that you mention here. My grandmother was Mary Jane Hall (known as Jenny/Jennie), my mother was Lilian (b.1924) and my aunt was Vera (b. 1920). They moved to London some time after William died, but by the end of the war were in Bournemouth, where Mary Jane remarried. Hope this is useful. Do you have details of William's mother and father, by any chance?
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Hi Simon,
Great to hear from you. Yes I do, his parents are my great great grandparents, James Carruthers b. 14 Feb 1870 in Gateshead and Mary Ann Bagg b. 2 Feb 1873 in Newcastle.
Do you have any details about Vera? My grandmother was called Vera but not with a 1920 birth.
I'll send you a PM tomorrow.
Bye for now,
Michael
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Hi Michael and Simon - and Welcome to Rootschat Simon!
Just for info,
The Personal Messaging system requires that the poster needs to have made 3 posts to be able to send and receive PMs. So Simon would have to reply to this thread a couple of times for Michael to be able to contact him via PM.
Boo
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Hi Boo,
Thanks for that, and for the message about his post as I didn't get a notification. In my excitement to reply I didn't spot that Simon was a new member.
Welcome to the forum Simon, as Boo said you'll need to post a couple more comments before I can send you that message.
Michael
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Thanks for the reply, Michael and thanks for the intervention, Boo.
My aunt Vera subsequently married a Mr. Billett and they had one daughter. Lived in Bournemouth for the rest of her life.
Cheers,
Simon
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Mary Jane subsequently married a man named Masters. Growing up, our generation (myself, brother and cousin) was told nothing of our mother / aunt / grandma's northeast background, nor did we ever visit any northeast family. They executed something of a reinvention exercise. I notice you wrote earlier about the family being "elusive". That was always our impression too.
Cheers, Simon