RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: rdkmt on Wednesday 21 November 18 22:56 GMT (UK)
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http://ww1hull.org.uk/index.php/streets-people-came-from/RHODESSTREET/8332-haddon
I chanced upon this previously unknown relative recently. I was aware that his mother had 5 children, 4 living from the 1911 census, and his father had 12, 6 living from the 1911 census, but up till now I was only aware of the names of two of the daughters they had together. From the censuses I think he also has four half-siblings and two step-sisters, but they don't seem to be included in that obit.
Since I found this I looked at his war records but can't see any reference to his parents on them, although presumably the website got their names from some war records (but maybe not) . He was seemingly given up for adoption to a John H Osborn according to the 1901 census, so that bit's wrong (unless the census is badly transcribed, don't have access to it) but can't find him on the 1911 census or the missing sister on 1901 or 1911. His parents seem to have split about 1900, as in 1901 his father is living with his "housekeeper" later his wife. He seemed to be living with his father when he joined up.
I want to know because the records they used might give a clue to the missing sister. Haddon also seems to be an unusual name, as I've looked at all the Haddons on BMD born in the area in that 30 year period and can't see any possible candidates.
Thanks for any help.
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On the bottom left of the article there is a button which says Contact Owner- why not do that and see if they can tell you where they got the info from?
Carol
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How about this one shown on the Yorkshire bmd website, born in Hessle?
1897: HADDON James H / Hessle / Registered at Hull / HES/38/327
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Thanks for trying but I was looking for the missing sister.
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On the bottom left of the article there is a button which says Contact Owner- why not do that and see if they can tell you where they got the info from?
Carol
It doesn't work. Someone else can try it, but I don't think it works.
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On the bottom left of the article there is a button which says Contact Owner- why not do that and see if they can tell you where they got the info from?
Carol
It doesn't work. Someone else can try it, but I don't think it works.
Link works for me - brings up screen enabling you to send email.
Annette
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Try sending one.
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Often you will find that information on these websites has been submitted by the public. It is really poor form not to provide a reference.
HIS ARMY EFFECTS WERE LEFT TO HIS FOSTER FATHER, JAMES OSBORNE
The effects register actually names him as Joseph H. OSBORNE.
I am not really sure what you are looking for in regards to his family. The three sisters are on the GRO indexes - Rose Hannah, 1892, Mary Jane, 1894, and Dorothy May, 1901.
Debra :)
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Looks Dorothy May died Dec.qtr.1921 Hull. She's transcribed as 'Hadden' in 1911.
Annette
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Thanks all, that was really helpful. I think I know what I did now. The father had two daughters by two different women, and called them both Dorothy. I got them mixed up, and thought there was only one, partly because the parents must have split up virtually the second she got pregnant. But really, who calls two of their children the same name? That must be pretty unusual.
All I'm looking for now is James Henry junior's 1911 census. Do you just have to keep trying various different spellings?
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1911 shows the number of children born to the wife not the husband.
So the 12 children you mention should be births to Harriet.
That is, if she has not included his previous children, of course.
Haddon mmn Eaman
Rose Hannah 1892
Mary Jane 1894
James Henry 1897
John William 1899
Dorothy May 1901
You would need to look for Habbershaw with mmn Brown.
Harriet Brown m Henry Habbershaw in 1893
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The father had two daughters by two different women, and called them both Dorothy. I got them mixed up, and thought there was only one, partly because the parents must have split up virtually the second she got pregnant. But really, who calls two of their children the same name? That must be pretty unusual.
My GF did. He named his daughter and 2nd son of his 1st marriage after his parents. Both children died young. He had a large family with his second wife and again named 2 children after his parents.
A 2xGGM did. Both were called after her father. First was illegitimate, born when she was 17/18 and seemingly brought up by her mother. Second was 10 years younger and was 1st child by her husband, who may not have known that the elder boy was his stepson rather than his brother-in-law .
Another set of great-greatgrandparents (same age as 2xGGM above) had 2 daughters with same first name. The elder had a middle name.
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1911 shows the number of children born to the wife not the husband.
The column heading is actually 'children born alive to present marriage'. Not that anyone read the instructions of course.
Debra :)
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Yes of course Debra - my mistake but still probably not J H.
The other Dorothy was born 1916, I think.
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1911 shows the number of children born to the wife not the husband.
So the 12 children you mention should be births to Harriet.
That is, if she has not included his previous children, of course.
Haddon mmn Eaman
Rose Hannah 1892
Mary Jane 1894
James Henry 1897
John William 1899
Dorothy May 1901
You would need to look for Habbershaw with mmn Brown.
Harriet Brown m Henry Habbershaw in 1893
Does anyone have access to this 1911 census, as I can't remember if the husband's and wife's births columns were the same, in which case it's inaccurate, & I don't know which partner it's describing. Although it's inaccurate anyway, as she's listed as his wife and they weren't married, although that was common. All I can say is the six living kids match what I've found for the father, although I haven't found any of the dead ones.
"You would need to look for Habbershaw with mmn Brown. Harriet Brown m Henry Habbershaw in 1893"
That's not possible is it, because of lack of mothers' names pre 1911.
Where did you find John William 1899? I've not seen that name before, and how do you know his mother's Eaman? I can't find his death date either.
Re the names, yes it was very common to name new children after dead ones, like you'd name your own children after parents and grandparents, but to give two of your living children the same name, I've never come across that before. You'd guess they called one Dorothy May and the other Dorothy (or Dot, or Dolly) but it's still a bit lacking in imagination. Maybe it was for deep reasons we'll never know...
Thanks all.
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"You would need to look for Habbershaw with mmn Brown. Harriet Brown m Henry Habbershaw in 1893"
That's not possible is it, because of lack of mothers' names pre 1911.
Yes it is!
The GRO Historical Births Index 1837-1917 now includes the mother's maiden name in most cases, exceptions include illegitimate births and records where the name is unreadable indicated by '-'
Good luck hunting.
Regards,
Malcolm.
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The 1911 census is free to search on FamilySearch and the GRO indexes are also free but you have to register for both. Everyone is born in Hull.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7T9-KH4
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp
Have you found the OSBORNEs in 1911? I haven't had any luck ??? Find them and James is probably still with them.
Debra :)
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I believe the 12 children referred to earlier on 1911 all refer to Harriet herself - however, with 4 shown living, 6 died you can see that doesn't add up!
I believe it should read '11' children, 4 living, '7' dead.
These appear to be Harriet's children up to 1911:
Lucy May Habbershaw born 1894 Hull
Joseph Henry Habbershaw born 1896 Sculcoates - died 1896
Joseph Henry Habbershaw born 1898 Sculcoates - died 1898
un-named female Habbershaw born and died 1899
Florence Habbershaw born 1900 Hull
then children with James Haddon:
Arthur Haddon Habbershaw born Dec.1901 - died 1903
Walter Haddon Habbershaw born Jun.1903 - died 1908
Beatrice Haddon Habbershaw born Jun.1904 - died 1908 (believe age shown death index wrong)
Arthur Haddon Habbershaw born Sept.1905 - died 1908
Harry Haddon Habbershaw born Mar.1908
then registered as Haddon
Gladys Irene Haddon - born Dec.1910
So, until late 1900/very early 1901 James and Harriet were with their respective partners.
Annette
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John William's birth registered as 'Hadden' in Sept.qtr.1899 Sculcoates, mmn Eaman.
Mother Martha had 5 children, 1 of whom died, and this must be John William (other 4 can be accounted for) although I can't find a death for him between 1899 and 1911. Perhaps he was 'adopted' too and death registered under that name. Then again, a George Henry Haddon b.1899 died Sept.1899 and there does not seem to be a birth entry for him - did they change his name between birth and death? (It happened - my grandmother sent my grandfather to register my aunts birth and when he got to the register office he couldn't remember what names they'd eventually decided on and registered her as Ivy May - my grandmother was far from pleased as these weren't the agreed names although my aunt remained Ivy May).
Annette
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John William Haddon would be the dead one of her 5 kids I guess. Who was George Henry Haddon's mother? (I can't get on the GRO website at the moment, they're having problems with their emails).
Also does it tell you about marriages? My best guess is
Joseph Henry Osborn/e, was born 1873, Hull, married Emma 1895, but I don't know her surname? I think she died in 1910.
Have you found the OSBORNEs in 1911? I haven't had any luck ??? Find them and James is probably still with them.
Debra :)
You're both very kind in doing some research for me. I spent a few hours trying to find the 1911 census for Joseph H Osborne and I nearly lost the will to live, and it's my family!
One thing I've noticed is that censuses that turn up in Ancestry search don't show on Family Search, is that a known flaw? And the same for disparities between BMD and GRO searches. Which is strange, as don't they both use the same sources? For example George Henry & John William Haddon don't show up at all on BMD. Is it common for people not to show up on record data bases generally? Because of misspelling or just lost or whatever?
Also, do you know why BMD doesn't use mothers' names from pre-1911? I always assumed it was because they weren't in the records, but you've shown not to be true, so does anyone know why they chose not to digitise them? It seems bizarre. Does that mean that a lot of researchers don't really bother with BMD anymore?
Also I've only just twigged that the live birth column in the census is just for that marriage and not for all your children, another source of my confusion. So there are three kids missing from J.H.Haddon's second marriage (or one, if like me, they didn't understand the form).
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I've only just twigged that the live birth column in the census is just for that marriage and not for all your children, another source of my confusion. So there are three kids missing from J.H.Haddon's second marriage (or one, if like me, they didn't understand the form).
I think misunderstanding was not uncommon. In my experience, some people with previous marriages got mixed-up. Some couples included step-children. Some may have included stillbirths. Most of them weren't used to form-filling.
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Also, do you know why BMD doesn't use mothers' names from pre-1911?
If you mean freebmd.org. the volunteers transcribed the GRO indexes, which do not have MMN before 1991 [you can view the original record that was transcribed if you go into an entry on
freebmd]. The recent GRO indexes are compiled by GRO from different data as I understand it.
You say John William's birth is not on BMD but see reply #18:
John William's birth registered as 'Hadden' in Sept.qtr.1899 Sculcoates, mmn Eaman.
ADDED: For George Henry, although after 1872 & compulsory registration, maybe he died very shortly after birth & only the death was registered ???. This happened with my G grandparents; maybe try looking for baptisms? George may have been baptised 'privately' at home if in danger of imminent death. The death certificate would give actual age.
ADDED 2: If my maths is right John was born in Sep q 1899 & George died Sep q 1899 age under 1, then George has to have been born sometime around Jun - Sep 1898. UNLESS, they were twins & George died very shortly after birth?
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I don't know why I said neither was on BMD, they are on there in some form (I've only just discovered phonetic search :-[).
I don't know if they have the same mother (GRO still not replied) but that makes too many kids anyway according to the mother's given record of five.
Re baptisms, I remember one website I used to use (I think it's quite popular, but I can't remember the name) which has baptism, marriage and burial records according to region, does that ring a bell?
I mainly use ancestry, family search, bmd and google. If anyone has any other useful websites please say.
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https://www.freereg.org.uk/- sister project to Freebmd
Ukbmd
Lots of other sites which are helpful for specific areas such as durhamrecordsonline
Www.genuki.org.uk
Hope these help.
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Re baptisms, I remember one website I used to use (I think it's quite popular, but I can't remember the name) which has baptism, marriage and burial records according to region, does that ring a bell?
I mainly use ancestry, family search, bmd and google. If anyone has any other useful websites please say.
Online Parish Clerks? I've used OPC for only Lancashire, Cheshire and counties in West Midlands; I don't know about other counties.
To see useful suggestions click on Forum at top of page and look at "Resources " and "Links" on boards; general resources on Common Room and Beginners boards and local resources on county boards.
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Online Parish Clerks, Lancashire is VERY good. Herefordshire, Shropshire and Worcestershire have not as yet joined in.
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Online Parish Clerks, Lancashire is VERY good.
So is Lancashire BMD which has included mother's maiden surname on index for some districts for quite a while, before GRO did. Addition of mother's maiden name to Manchester districts ongoing. Then there is Lancashire Archives with online catalogue - LANCAT, and Lancashire Library service of which I'm a guest/remote member. I'm fortunate that majority of my ancestors I've researched spent at least part of their lives in Lancashire. Today is Lancashire Day.
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Online Parish Clerks, Lancashire is VERY good.
So is Lancashire BMD which has included mother's maiden surname on index for some districts for quite a while, before GRO did. Addition of mother's maiden name to Manchester districts ongoing. Then there is Lancashire Archives with online catalogue - LANCAT, and Lancashire Library service of which I'm a guest/remote member. I'm fortunate that majority of my ancestors I've researched spent at least part of their lives in Lancashire. Today is Lancashire Day.
Agree LancsBMD is excellent, haven't experience of the others.
If your relatives died in Wigan then WiganWorld is the place to look, they have Indices to six Municipal Cemeteries, This is the first Lower Ince (http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/cemetery.php?opt=cemetery) the rest are accessable from the same page.